Taking off the Hijab
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To veil or not to veil that is the question.
AS WE ALL KNOW, veiled women are a dowdy, dumpy bunch. They are women with no thoughts or opinions of their own, women who cant so much as shut the bedroom window if theyre getting a draft without first consulting a man and asking his permission. Maybe, back when they were three or four years old, they dreamed of grander things from life, but now that they are adults theyve been forced to wear the shroud, walk three feet behind their husbands, and stifle whatever hopes and feelings they used to call their own under the guise of being hapless helpmates to domineering men.
Right?
Then again, we ALSO know that unveiled women are wanton sluts, women who require nothing more than hearing a man call hey, baby on a street corner and suddenly theyre in the backseat of his car, throwing their legs in the air while shrieking whee, I love Satan!
At least thats what weve been told. I heard it on television and read it on the internet, so it must be true.
Or wait, did I get it wrong? Perhaps it goes like this
Bare-headed women are liberated and free, sure of themselves, comfortable with their sexuality, a page straight out of Cosmo. They are women whose lives are filled with meaning and purpose; above all, they are modern unlike backwards veiled women, who wouldnt recognize their own oppression if it hit them on the head with a slipper.
Or no, wait, what I meant to say was that veiled women are the true feminists, women who are secure enough in their sexuality that they dont need to engage in some base attempt to advertise it unlike their sell-out sisters, who are so desperate for attention that they will abandon every iota of self-respect in a sad attempt to grovel for male approval. (Tee-hee-hee, have you seen my belly ring?”
Right?
Well. Maybe not. To all of the above.
A Saudi friend of mine once said that the only thing more clich? than talking about the veil is apologizing for talking about the veil. Shes right; the subjects boring, long-exhausted. Yet, for Muslim women, its one subject that wont go away. Heres an insider tip for my male Muslim friends, even the so-called progressive ones who say they dont care whether women veil or not the difference between you and me is that youve never had to make this decision. And as much as we love you plural for claiming that you dont care what conclusion we come to, the fact is you will never have to be in this position. And that, right there, makes your experience of Islam different from ours.
This is especially true in the United States. Which might seem odd, because we have no laws about veiling here, but thats part of the reason the issue is so contentious.
In Iran, because veiling is mandated by law, a woman must be especially progressive to wear it in a lax and casual manner (in public) or forgo it altogether (in private). Veiling is the norm, so shes well aware of the statement shes making when she rejects it.
On the flip side, in France or Turkey where there are laws against veiling inside various public institutions a woman is, presumably, especially religious if she decides to take it up. Since not-veiling is the default, for Muslim and non-Muslim women alike, going against the grain of public opinion requires a commitment to Islam that most observers would understand to be something over and above the mere coincidence of being born into a Muslim family.
In the United States, however, it is precisely the freedom of choice I so cherish that makes this such a complicated decision for the Muslim women who live here. The cultural norm the average American woman is unveiled, but the predominant image of a Muslim woman, even among non-Muslims, is that of a muhajabah. Therefore a muslimah who decides not to veil is seen as transgressing against her community and will have her commitment to Islam doubted, while the woman who does decide to veil is seen as rejecting everything about American life save for her religious practice. We cant win; there is no middle ground. Being 51% one way or the other is seen as a complete rejection of the other side.
In case you werent listening the first time around, let me be clear I wouldnt have it any other way. Im opposed to both the French ban on veiling and the Saudi mandate for it, and listening to the Dutch whine about the loss of their Pure Dutch Culture in the face of all these gasp immigrants is one of the few times Im proud to be American, where multiculturalism is an established fact, however imperfectly its practiced.
But I also remember living in a country where the signifiers werent so strong. Im told its different in Egypt now that somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of Cairene women now veil but when I was living there, in the early 1990s, it was closer to 50/50. I loved that. I loved, especially, that there was no great social divide between veiled and unveiled women; youd see differences of opinion even within a single family. One of my sisters-in-law veiled, one did not, the third took it up for a few years and then changed her mind and took it off. None of this was a matter of any great controversy. It didnt even merit much discussion.
This is not to downplay the choices Egyptian women had to make. One friend of mine at the university said her father never forced her to veil, but it was only after she decided to take it up that he allowed her study late at the library, walk home unattended, and otherwise participate in public space in ways he wouldnt have permitted without her willingness to adopt the hijab and, accordingly, serve as walking symbolism for everything the hijab represented in the popular imagination. On the other side of that spectrum, there was another girl I knew, also Egyptian, who said she wanted to veil but worried it would interfere with her career as a journalist. She wanted to be a foreign correspondent, and she was afraid people would read so much into her scarf that they wouldnt get around to reading her words.
Can the choice to veil or not veil in such a context truly be considered free? I dont know. Then again, I know plenty of American women who will tell you no one forced them to diet, but they believed that being thin facilitated their right to speak with authority in a manner theyd have lost if they had to confront the bias against fat women in a country where being heavy is equated with a loss of self-control and a where a loss of self-control is considered shameful, if not downright sinful. My point here is not to excuse the former because of the existence of the latter only to argue that there is nothing uniquely Islamic about a woman negotiating with the patriarchy, nothing specifically Muslim about a woman who trades in Her Personal Ideal in favor of getting what privileges she can with a minimal amount of compromise. We ladies, the world over and religion notwithstanding, have been doing that for thousands of years.
I wonder, though, if our notions of Islamic dress had evolved in such a way that the turban (for example) was considered as mandatory for men as the hijab is for women in some circles, would Muslim men in the West expound on the subject with the same confident manner they do now, one that is as flippant as it is self-assured? Im sure 10% of men would wear it everywhere without a second thought, and another 10% would scoff at the mere idea of it. But for the majority, those in the middle, it would (I would hope) elicit a little more reflection. Do you risk community censure for being one of those non-turban guys, knowing that before you even open your mouth your bare head will be considered, by some, proof that you eat pork, drink alcohol, never pray, love capitalism, support colonialism and the war in Iraq, neglect your children, and cheat on your wife? Or do you take it up, knowing that, in different spheres, it will brand you as ignorant, ascetic, oppressed, and/or radical? Be careful! Remember, you dont get to choose how you want to be seen at this event, or with that crowd of people the choice you make has to be applicable for all times and circumstances. No fair picking one option for a family reunion or protest march, and another for your first nervous job interview at Chase Manhattan.
For a while, in Cairo, I lived across the street from a girls high school and would watch these young scholars stream out of class after the final bell. There would be the same roar of high-pitched laughter I recognize in teenage girls anywhere, in any country, as they coagulated in groups in the garden, or at the front gate veiled girls interlinking their arms with girls who wore their hair uncovered, occasionally leaning over to whisper some secret that necessitated pushing back a girlfriends headscarf or ponytail, depending, in order to have access to her ear. The intimacy of girls that age is always charming to me, but it seems even more endearing in retrospect, knowing that they were doing something that, in so many parts of the world, would be considered a radical act ignoring the politics of the veiled/unveiled split in favor of interacting with the human being inside.
kufigirl
http//hijabman.com/journal/kg-to-veil-or-not-to-veil-that-is-the-question
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Maybe there is something more trust worthy than this, but I'll leave you to read through this site http//www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/hadith-science/ - - click on part two.
What developed from there on by the muslims was the desire to seek truth rather than before that it was the desire to guess. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method#Introduction_to_scientific_method
http//muttaqun.com/scienceofhadith.html
I am fully aware of the so called 'science' of hadith and in seeking the 'truth' this is a complete diversion from 'the path' and in total contrast to everything you quoted from Quran. I have to agree with OPF on this one.
There is no question that science, real science, is not compatible with religion, of course it is compatible if one is to believe the word of God.
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Are you crazy?
the speech literally is for the wives of the prophet but goes for all women because God created women not just wives of prophets .
when a speech from God to prophet or to his wives is valid for all . if we use your logic, we will not obey the prophet because Quran was recited to him alone. what a joke .
Mufti sir would you stop giving fatwas?
Read this with open eyes,3332 O Consorts of the Prophet! Ye are not like any of the (other) women if ye do fear (Allah), be not too complacent of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire but speak ye a speech (that is) just.
Ya nisaa alnnabiyyilastunna kaahadin mina alnnisa-i iniittaqaytunna fala takhdaAAna bialqawli fayatmaAAaallathee fee qalbihi maradun waqulna qawlanmaAAroofan3333 And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Apostle. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.
Waqarna fee buyootikunna walatabarrajna tabarruja aljahiliyyati al-oola waaqimnaalssalata waateena alzzakatawaatiAAna Allaha warasoolahu innama yureeduAllahu liyuthhiba AAankumu alrrijsa ahlaalbayti wayutahhirakum tatheeran -
Sorry but there is no "science" in hadeeth. Science itself pertains to that which is concretely verifiable. So for instance, a tablet can be carbon dated to prove its age and its words can then be taken to be words of that age, or you can measure the length of something, that is science. However there is no such equivalent in "hadeeth". If anything they can be considered "history" but a more fitting term is "bullshit". In essence, you could show "science of hadeeth" to any scientist and they will laugh in your face, because there is not an iota of science in the classification of hearsay.
In reality, "hadeeth science" is a technique developed by distorters of the path of the Almighty to falsify credence for their own utterances. It is then given the name "science" and naive people fail to distinguish between it and real science.
whatever
To veil or not to veil that is the question.
But I also remember living in a country where the signifiers weren?t so strong. I?m told it?s different in Egypt now ? that somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of Cairene women now veil ? but when I was living there, in the early 1990s, it was closer to 50/50. I loved that. I loved, especially, that there was no great social divide between veiled and unveiled women; you?d see differences of opinion even within a single family. One of my sisters-in-law veiled, one did not, the third took it up for a few years and then changed her mind and took it off. None of this was a matter of any great controversy. It didn?t even merit much discussion.
All I can say to that is... it's a good thing the women in Egypt have started to see themselves as being more beautiful, and respect men's minds. Rather than follow western trends for the sake of consumerism. At least today they're trying to give a damn about the god's thoughts. But I wonder if they know exactly why one should do hijab or veil or the purpose behind it according to the quran. It seems that most people are just following the crowd rather than pleasing the god.
I am fully aware of the so called 'science' of hadith and in seeking the 'truth' this is a complete diversion from 'the path' and in total contrast to everything you quoted from Quran. I have to agree with OPF on this one.
There is no question that science, real science, is not compatible with religion, of course it is compatible if one is to believe the word of God.
Then please explain how the early muslims managed to develop a scientific method. Especially when the first problems would have been false reports about the prophet from certain people.
How on earth can you say that real science is not compatible with religion? Religion created real science!
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I am fully aware of the so called 'science' of hadith and in seeking the 'truth' this is a complete diversion from 'the path' and in total contrast to everything you quoted from Quran. I have to agree with OPF on this one.
Then please explain how the early muslims managed to develop a scientific method. Especially when the first problems would have been false reports about the prophet from certain people.
A scientific method for what? clasifying hadith? ;D
The early muslims didnt have or clasify hadith, they followed Quran. Bukhari wasnt born untill 200 years after the prophet died so his collection didnt come into effect until well after that, then he had to 'classify' it all so theres another few years, so these muslims are earlier than us but not 'the early muslims'
Also what 'science' classifies all these as Sahih/sound/authentic hadith
Bukhari Vol.4, Book 055, Hadith # 635.Narated By Abu Huraira The Prophet said, "Solomon (the son of) David said, 'Tonight I will sleep with SEVENTY ladies each of whom will conceive a child who will be a knight fighting for "Allah's Cause.' His companion said, 'If Allah will.' But Solomon did not say so; therefore none of those women got pregnant except one who gave birth to a half child." The Prophet further said, "If the Prophet Solomon had said it (i.e. 'If Allah will' he would have begotten children who would have fought in Allah's Cause." Shuaib and Ibn Abi Az-Zinad said, "Ninety (women) is more correct (than seventy)."
Bukhari Vol. 8, Book 78, Hadith # 634.
Narated By Abu Huraira Allah's Apostle said, "(The Prophet) Solomon once said, 'Tonight I will sleep with NINETY women, each of whom will bring forth a (would-be) cavalier who will fight in Allah's Cause." On this, his companion said to him, "Say Allah willing!" But he did not say Allah willing. Solomon then slept with all the women, but none of them became pregnant but one woman who later delivered a half-man. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, if he (Solomon) had said, 'Allah willing' (all his wives would have brought forth boys) and they would have fought in Allah's Cause as cavaliers."
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 74i Narrated Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "Once Solomon, son of David said, '(By Allah) Tonight I will have sexual intercourse with one hundred (or ninety-nine) women each of whom will give birth to a knight who will fight in Allah's Cause.' On that a (i.e. if Allah wills) but he did not say, 'Allah willing.' Therefore only one of those women conceived and gave birth to a half-man. By Him in Whose Hands Muhammad's life is, if he had said, "Allah willing', (he would have begotten sons) all of whom would have been knights striving in Allah's Cause."
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 561
Narrated Abu HurairaAllah's Prophet Solomon who had sixty wives, once said, "Tonight I will have sexual relation (sleep) with all my wives so that each of them will become pregnant and bring forth (a boy who will grow into) a cavalier and will fight in Allah's Cause." So he slept with his wives and none of them (conceived and) delivered (a child) except one who brought a half (body) boy (deformed). Allah's Prophet said, "If Solomon had said; 'If Allah Will,' then each of those women would have delivered a (would-be) cavalier to fight in Allah's Cause." (See Hadith No. 74 A, Vol. 4).
If the early muslims heard any of these 4 differing hadith from a man who makes it up depending on who he is telling his story to, they would have laughed and not taken this as any part of religion or anything to do with any prophet, just a man who tells lies, which is exactly what it is.
OR
Bukhari got tired when he was doing his 'science' of classifying them and just didnt bother to check on consistency which means he did NOT do any 'science' as he claims to have done.
Someone here is lying, which is it?
FAR]
There is no question that science, real science, is not compatible with religion, of course it is compatible if one is to believe the word of God.How on earth can you say that real science is not compatible with religion? Religion created real science!
Read it again. I said there is NO QUESTION and OF COURSE IT IS compatible with religion.
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Peace Ayesha
And to imagine the Hadithists believe that the above crap was wahy sent by God to Muhammad and memorised by Abu huraira word to word because the Messenger prayed for AbuHurairas good memory and protected by the science of hadith and written down by Bukhari in a book next to Quran.
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Welcome to the forum truestar, there is no verse that tells women are supposed to wear the hijab. in the Quran the word hijab doesn't refer to headscarf as what majority people attribute. though of course if people want to wear it, that's their personal choice irrespective of religion
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My knowledge of Islam is rather basic. I was told that women are supposed to wear the hijab. But reading other posts it seems it is not the case?
Doesn't it say in the Quran that women are supposed to wear it?Assaslamu alaykum
The peace (heaven) be for yaWelcome to this forum truestar
Trust the god first.
"O you who believe, if a wicked person brings any news to you, you shall first investigate, lest you commit injustice towards some people, out of ignorance, then become sorry and remorseful for what you have done." (496)
Yes the quran does say cover yourself, it actually tells women to be outspoken and speak up and tell men not to stare at them.
Quran 2430.
Of course there are some people here that don't believe in either speaking up or covering up.
shrugs shoulders
Of course, it's one's personal choice if they want to be muslim, or do anything in the quran. It'd also be one's personal choice if they go to hell.
You decide, obey allah, or obey men and devils. You do believe in the god right?
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Wow..this must be the longest thread on this forum!
Peace all,
Just wanted to say that this is a very interesting topic and that I can totally sympathise with all you ladies. I too am in this predicament and wished that taking the hijab off could be as easy as switching on a light bulb. I've been wearing the hijab for 25 years and it feels like my second skin almost. Taking it off would be like a death sentence. Not only for myself but my whole family.
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't.
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It's rather complicated really. My parents are quite respected in the sunni muslim community. So, I would hate to see their names being dragged through the mud because of my actions (removing the veil). It would break my heart to see my parents stressed and shamed out because of me. I personally wouldn't care what other people thought of me but the social stigma would create so much conflict between my family and I. Also, I depend on my family a great deal for support and I wouldn't want to jeapodize our relationship at this point because of a stupid veil. Besides, I'm so used to wearing it that I've come to accept it as a necessary form of dress.
But on the other hand, I'd like to know how it would feel like to be perceived as an ordinary human being without my beliefs being the predominant characteristic that one judges me on firsthand. I'd like to go for an interview and feel confident that my chances of getting a job were based on my personal merits and not on what group of people I belong to. I'd like to go through airport security without feeling like everyone thinks I'm linked to some terrorist group. I'd like to walk out of a cinema and not be associated with any groups of people whether it be a good or a bad thing and get looks of disgust as the other patrons walk past me thinking that I'm somewhat responsible for what happened in the movie. Growing up and having to go to school with the veil was the worst. It really took away what little confidence I had in myself. But anyway, enough of the pity party. I'm really not as depressed as I've made myself sound! laugh
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But on the other hand, I'd like to know how it would feel like to be perceived as an ordinary human being without my beliefs being the predominant characteristic that one judges me on firsthand. I'd like to go for an interview and feel confident that my chances of getting a job were based on my personal merits and not on what group of people I belong to. I'd like to go through airport security without feeling like everyone thinks I'm linked to some terrorist group. I'd like to walk out of a cinema and not be associated with any groups of people whether it be a good or a bad thing and get looks of disgust as the other patrons walk past me thinking that I'm somewhat responsible for what happened in the movie. Growing up and having to go to school with the veil was the worst. It really took away what little confidence I had in myself. But anyway, enough of the pity party. I'm really not as depressed as I've made myself sound! laugh
Peace to you too... but wouldn't you want to wish definitive peace to us all?
I'm going to say so... what the hell... you made yourself sound like you care more about what people think than what your creator teaches. If had cared about what people thought over the quran, I'd have had a smile from cheek bone to cheek bone a long time ago.
We are of course linked to a terrorist group, we are terrific and the devil is afraid of us because we read out the quran. WE always terrorize him. laugh
What kind of cinemas do you go to?
If a person fears what others think... then speak to those others and let them know what you think...!
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/49/3/default.htm
http//www.islamawakened.com/Quran/49/13/default.htmWhy I chose to take off my hijab Four women speak
Why I chose to take off my hijab Four women speak (Part II)
And?
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Wow..this must be the longest thread on this forum!
Peace all,
Just wanted to say that this is a very interesting topic and that I can totally sympathise with all you ladies. I too am in this predicament and wished that taking the hijab off could be as easy as switching on a light bulb. I've been wearing the hijab for 25 years and it feels like my second skin almost. Taking it off would be like a death sentence. Not only for myself but my whole family.
You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. (
Peace sis
i know exactly how you feel, i so badly want to stop wearing it, intentionally trying to make yourself uglier will make anyone feel unconfident, i could handle feeling like that when it was for a higher reason but now it feels like i'm a walking talking lie, i feel like a sign post for cultural Islam it's something i'm trying to avoid but then i take it everywhere with me. it feels so stupid.
if i didnt take anyone in to consideration my hijab would have been off as soon as i realised it wasnt part of islam, but my family would be so saddened and other extremely important people in my life would never see me the same. i fear may never bother to see me completely.
if i was to hear this coming from anyone i'd just tell them to follow their heart and do what they think is right if they care they'll be there and if not well maybe it was a test to prove how much you meant to them, it's just so hard taking this advice myself, im truly scared.
so my only advice to you and me and all the other sisters confused about this is to take it in their stride, not wearing it is a massive step, life will change it'll be different in both good and bad ways. and to make a decision either way they are content with the horrid bit in limbo isnt good for anyone and always feeling like this will leave you with many ifs and buts and not much happiness.
out of courisity could everyone tell me what the consider 'modest' clothing on a woman outside of the headscarf?
this isnt for me to base my decision on i'm just interested to see what answers are out there
thanks
hope your all really well
Umi
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Anything that does not generally attract the wrong kind of attention is modest dress or attire. I say generally, because diseased minds usually do not need much encouagement to look indecently or otherwise wrong at women other people no matter what. On the other hand there is nothing wrong with admiring personality or beauty or intelligency, so peole will look and listen to somebody interesting enough for whatever reason and without anything wrong in mind.
Salaam
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Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.We are all aware from The Quran, that veil, hijab, niqab and burqa are not obligatory clothing for a woman and that it is part of a tradition which is not conencted to Islam.
However, if a women feels the need to cover herlsef and if she wants to wear hijab or those other dresses, then she can, i don't have a problerm with that. What must be understood here is that it is not oblitgatory.
I consider modest clothing the one which does not speak for you. Oxford street here in London is just one of the bussiest streets in Westminster and i see women wear hijabs and those who wear only underwear. I'm not kidding. There is a third group as well. The third group is the one that i like they are dressed according to The Quran and wear at least 60% less make up then girls and women wearing hijab and just underwear, yet, the third group somehow attracts me more.
I'm not saying that i am not attracted to women who wear hijabs and those that are two steps from being naked, I am, it's just that in this case, modesty speaks for itself and it speaks volumes.
Regaridng taking the hijab off when you feel it's time to take it off, then take it off. Being pressured into taking it off seems same as being presured into putting it on. Just my view. Would love to hear feedback though.
God bless you and may God give you more Strength, especially sisters.
Keep up the prayers and read Quran after the prayers.
Peace. -
Anything that does not generally attract the wrong kind of attention is modest dress or attire.
That's how I see it as well. Apart from that, what I wear depends on the circumstances. In Egypt, I always wear long sleeves and long pants / skirts, and I also avoid wearing anything body-hugging in public. In Europe, I wear whatever I feel like.
I believe modesty is more defined by behaviour etc. You can be modest in a tank top, and you can be covered up from head to toe and be provocative at the same time.
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Peace Umi,
I think that modesty in clothing is loose clothing but most importantly, it covers the bosoms. If you're not comfortable enough to run in those trousers then you're doing something wrong P If your breathing is restricted by that t-shirt, you know it's perhaps not the best choice. Alhamdulillah, even though there are a lot of immodest fashions out there today, there are a LOT of ways to dress very modestly and many clothings in the high street stores that cater to more modest shoppers. Although, I do think that consumerism and modesty are interlinked. Can you really be called modest if you cover properly but you buy all the latest fashions and are so preoccupied with new clothes, best brand shoes and too much clothes to fit in your wardrobe. I don't think that modesty is straight forward as a Hijab or looser trousers, it even encompasses how you carry yourself, your attitude, your ideals and your approach to clothing. Thankfully though, frivolous spending does nothing for me. I remember spending quite a bit of money once on some lovely clothes and the next day I felt so disgusted with myself that I returned that which wasn't necessary. I learned early on that so long as you're appearance is clean and presentable and keeping within the bounds of modesty, you're alright.
These are just my opinions though, take them as such  
Peace