Quran vs quranists
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What, don't tell me you believe the rumours too?
Is inadvertent/accidental refutation/undermining more to your liking then?
It's quite simple really, at the end of the day. There are discussions and then there are discussions. The latter don't fall into the learning/sharing/okay you keep yours, I'll keep mine category. You have someone who's out to ply his trade without sharing, listening, learning. There is no ambiguity about that here. Then again, I'm not surprised that instead of picking up on that and his whimsical two-step, you claim he is the one being undermined.
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But some would say that The Prophet PBUH's job was only to deliver the message. So why would he need Wisdom?
Delivering a message and explaining a message with wisdom are two different duties and responsibilities? No?
For people who are struggling with the topic, maybe you should counter with the following ayats
358 THIS MESSAGE do We convey unto thee, and this tiding full of wisdom
101 Alif Lam. Ra. THESE ARE MESSAGES of the divine writ, full of wisdom.
312 THESE ARE MESSAGES of the divine writ, full of wisdom,
362 Consider this Qur?an full of wisdom
But the problem arises when the Arabic term Book and Wisdom comes into the equation.
Thereformer1 is correct in asking, what is this magic word Wisdom in light of the Quran?
Finally, can someone please explain the following ayat explaining the differences or meanings if any, of revelation, wisdom and prophethood as 3 seperate entities as mentioned or does it mean one and the same thing?
4516 AND, INDEED, unto the children of Israel did We vouchsafe revelation, and wisdom, and prophethood; and We provided for them sustenance out of the good things of life, and favoured them above all other people .
Peace
salam bro, i have been thinking about this. now lets substitute the words Quran and Message with Wallet (assuming we agree that the message IS Quran) and the word Wisdom with Money and look at these verses again.
358 THIS WALLET do We convey unto thee, and this tiding full of MONEY
101 Alif Lam. Ra. THESE ARE WALLETS of the divine writ, full of MONEY.
312 THESE ARE WALLETS of the divine writ, full of MONEY,
362 Consider this WALLET full of MONEY
But the problem arises when the Arabic term WALLET and MONEY comes into the equation.
Now if I have said I have given you a WALLET full of MONEY and then I say I have given you THE WALLET and THE MONEY am I referring to a different lot of MONEY other than the WALLET that is full of MONEY?
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But some would say that The Prophet PBUH's job was only to deliver the message. So why would he need Wisdom?
Firstly would it be WISE of God to deliver a message with a prophet that wasnt also WISE? Without wisdom he could have just heard the message and ignored it, passed it off as a dream, anything. he needed to be wise to know it was the Truth from the creator. I mean can you imagine if Allah had chosen Thereformer to deliver this message? o
Delivering a message and explaining a message with wisdom are two different duties and responsibilities? No?
The explaining is in Quran, the book IS explained in detail as it says it is. The wisdom OF the book is IN the book, as it says it is. His duty was to RECITE these words of Allah, as the book says. Now granted any people without wisdom to see the wisdom IN the book the prophet probably will have had to try to explain to them what it meant, but to those who think and reflect and have wisdom the meaning is there IN the book. So those that need to discover some other way of explanation because they either have no wisdom (and Allah grants to who He wills) and neither think nor reflect will turn to what they think/are told, is an explanation of the book. (hadith/Tafsir)
I have read many hadith, I have read all of Maliks Muwatta and most of Bukhari and I have read many tafsir and using my wisdom, my brain and thinking and reflecting (as Quran tells me to) I can find NO explanation of ANY verse in Quran that makes more sense than using my OWN wisdom and brain. I can find very limited hadith that I could say yes that probably came from the prophet.
Now considering one hadith that the prophet said do NOT write anything down from me BUT Quran I can see why, because he will not BE HERE and the Quran is fully detailed, explained IN detail, as it says it is. he and Allah were both aware that later on people will be attributing sayings to him that he didnt say, this is also IN Quran. They were both also very aware that people would go very astray from the Book, as it says they will. he wanted people to stick to the Book as they should and as is repeated throughout the Book.
ALL hadithists claim that the prophet said not to write anything BUT Quran was because he didnt want it mixed up with Quran while it was being revealed, that im sorry to say, is rubbish as what do we have now but people claiming that hadith IS part of the revelation from Allah and a necessary part of Islam, its NOT.
If you read, think, reflect on its verses then you will gain the wisdom IN IT. If you read, recite and dont THINK and REFLECT on the verses and instead go to another source to find the 'answers' to its meaning you will NEVER gain the wisdom IN IT.
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The only winner here is me, every one will enter to this website and read this thread he will see the truth
http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=8242 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=8242 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=8242
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Mon Dieu! the only one wasting their time is yourself. Instead of running away, you could've posted your scandal me. Instead it was just a copy paste of my own post. Big whoop that was, yeah that totally cut the legs from right under me. My own post. Good job that. pat pat
C'est tr?s clear , you are afraid. I copied your post and pasted it for another thread to debate there me and you, and the memebers can watch and read your Assaad words down like a meteor . But your chosen name in this forum didn't lie you're savage carrot.
As I said, we ain't budging from this here thread buddy. Better come ready and prepared with your silver bullets...same place, same channel.
No, ruining thir thread is abvious, and everyone will see this, don't lie to yourself, already people saw this and read that I was more than juste .
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http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=8242 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=8242 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=8242
Well, laugh because you can't deny the truth. The thread is too dangerous for this forum and quranists are going down .Wear a cap .
I've another Thread, keep laughing, the next will show all your fallacies .
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If you say so ... & & &
" " 2
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Exactly. When GOD is mentioned. Not when some person on a message board speaks about the importance of ahadeeth. peace
Well, read the verse . When God is mentioned, is that about Quran ? I think God mentioned Quran later . Ignorance !!
" " 2
I don't know why people talk without even a drop of knowledge or even read the verse very well.
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Did I say it's about Qur'an? No. It's about God.
So This is your post (Exactly. When GOD is mentioned. Not when some person on a message board speaks about the importance of ahadeeth. )
is in the thread there is no mention of God ? is in hadeeth there is no mention of God ?
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Yet another key term in the Qur'an is hikmah which is generally translated as wisdom. The Qur'an also uses 'aql, tafakkur and tadabbur which mean reason, thinking and reflection. Thus it will be seen that the Qur'an does not encourage blind following of any dogma or belief at all. It appeals to reason, thinking and reflection. It has also been pointed out by some that the Qur'an emphasises inductive reason and encourages study of nature. The Qur'an says that accept divine guidance after proper thinking and reflection.
Wisdom hikmah in a way is a higher form of reason. Reason is not sufficient by itself as it has no criteria to judge. Thus reason can be used both ways for good as well as for evil. One can use reason to promote self-interest also, as is often done. Reason, it must be noted, is an instrument, not a goal. There is thus great emphasis in modern civilization on reason but not on values. Modern society has thus become totally directionless and the only concern is growth, development and increased gross product. The multi-nationals put reason to their own selfish ends. They do not even hesitate to use undesirable means for their own growth.
But hikmah (wisdom) is reason synthesised with higher values. Hikmah is no mere concern with reason as an instrument but promotion of higher values as a goal. Justice, equity, equality, human dignity, compassion, humanism are some of these higher values which reason should strive to promote. Thus hikmah is higher than reason. Hikmah, however, can never degenerate into unreason. Reason remains its important component. Thus Allah is described by the Qur'an as Hakim, 'Alim and Khabir i.e. Wise, Knower and Informed. Wisdom, knowledge and proper information can never lead to unreason. If any religious belief is based on unreason or irrationality, it must be rejected. Any religious belief must fulfill the criteria of reason and higher values. Such beliefs alone can be compatible with spiritual growth, human values and inner peace and richness.
The root of the word hikmah is h.k.m. which basically means to control and stop crossing the limit with firmness. Thus hakamat in Arabic means reining in the horse in a way which will not allow horse to get out of control (see Kitab al-Ishtiqaq ). The root of hakama also conveys the sense of stopping within the limits so that one does not commit excess. One should know what is the limit beyond which one should not go. And a Haakim is one who properly judges the limit and does not allow the people to cross this limit. Hakim is one who judges the limit. Thus one who is appointed to judge and arbitrate is also called hakam and government is called hukumat because its function is to judge the behaviour of the people and to restrain them from crossing the limits of law.
Allah has been described by the Qur'an as Ahkam al-Hakimin i.e. justest of the just because He lays down the rules of justice and exhorts people not to transcend limits. He is the source of justice and just guidance. And al-hikmah carries the sense of judgement which is just and takes into account the rights of every one and does not violate any ones rights. Hikmah is that which bridles our unjust tendencies and brings about and promotes what is based on proper balance and would stop disorder and mischief. Hikmah is prevention of all that is bad, evil or unjust and violative of what is judged to be right by all.
Qur'an has also been described as Hakeem as it provides guidance to us so that a just social order can be brought into existence which is not violative of descent limits. This alone can lead to a stable society. Thus istihkam (firmness, stability) is also derived from this root because it is only just and balanced society which can remain firm and stability. A society which is not based on these values will experience repeated upheavals and instability.
This it will be seen that the Qur'an lays great emphasis on hikmah (wisdom) as it intends to establish a properly balanced society based on values which ensures growth and development of all human beings and this growth is as much spiritual as material, it should be as much inner as outer material growth. It is this balance between spiritual and material growth which will ensure a humane society. Thus hikmah becomes very fundamental to the Qur'anic discourse. It is, as pointed out before, a synthesis of reason and higher values.
http//static.panjabilok.net/faith/islam/termquran.htm
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C'est tr?s clear , you are afraid. I copied your post and pasted it for another thread to debate there me and you, and the memebers can watch and read your Assaad words down like a meteor . But your chosen name in this forum didn't lie you're savage carrot.
No, ruining thir thread is abvious, and everyone will see this, don't lie to yourself, already people saw this and read that I was more than juste .
Non, now quit playing the village idiot. You like the appeal to majority, now all of a sudden...the wormeth turneth? It is now an appeal to the minority? How many people exactly said "you was more than juste" whatever that means? A dude that hangs around the forum with different usernames waiting on pounce and play upon old grudges, that's who. That's your people. Right. I'm sick and tired of this sort of crap being lobbed all over the forum. This is a place for learning, sharing and in the end, for those that don't agree with the main message of the site, do your own thingy and go away. If you want to stick around in that case, one'd better have something more than their brilliant personality to carry the day is all.
Those that insist on sticking around speaking in tongues claiming the quran said this and that and REFUSE to come up with any evidence from the quran should get well acquainted with Rule 2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to the study and understanding of the Scripture (Quran). Thus, mocking/ridiculing/insulting it and/or not being able to back-up Quranic based claims (i.e. Quran says this or that) with specifics may result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
This is not the first time we have had those that disagree, we have sterling examples in the past of people (yes, note the plural) from different faiths/sects whatnot curious and/or disagreeing, discussing with reasoning/logic, and all around enrichment from the experience. The difference by contrast is...there are those that come here for kicks (time to burn/I have no friends!), for ego stroking (I know kungfu/arabic/hear me roar!), for asserting some delusion of superiority (we are the chosen sect, you're all losers lalalala!), for thinking they are bonafide "warriors of Allah" meant to smite such forums down (ironically with no evidence from the quran itself but who needs that when one has "hikma" where they can find whatever they want eh?)
Now you have a choice. Either post your evidence from the quran for your claims on this thread, or slink away into the sunset.
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A dude that hangs around the forum with different usernames waiting on pounce and play upon old grudges, that's who.
And boasting about teaching hundreds of people about Islam on another forum, although fact is he just did the same as he did here ... insulting everyone who disagrees or has a serious question.
Yeah sure, I've been in another Forum and they have asked me millions of questions and I answered but I didn't wait another millions of questions, so I did cancel my account . and you know one of the guys that I have talked to him(he was an atheist) and he got all his questions from this forum and he gave me the link.
...P.S millions of questions was a metaphore, but I might have answered more than 10.000 questions .
Using deception and dishonesty ... that's not really the appropriate behaviour for someone who claims to be a pious Muslim with a desire to bring people to Islam.
nope nope nope
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Yet another key term in the Qur'an is hikmah which is generally translated as wisdom. The Qur'an also uses 'aql, tafakkur and tadabbur which mean reason, thinking and reflection. Thus it will be seen that the Qur'an does not encourage blind following of any dogma or belief at all. It appeals to reason, thinking and reflection. It has also been pointed out by some that the Qur'an emphasises inductive reason and encourages study of nature. The Qur'an says that accept divine guidance after proper thinking and reflection.
Yes, Quran described as Hakim, no something new . look the word "described" as HAKIM .
Wisdom hikmah in a way is a higher form of reason. Reason is not sufficient by itself as it has no criteria to judge. Thus reason can be used both ways for good as well as for evil. One can use reason to promote self-interest also, as is often done. Reason, it must be noted, is an instrument, not a goal. There is thus great emphasis in modern civilization on reason but not on values. Modern society has thus become totally directionless and the only concern is growth, development and increased gross product. The multi-nationals put reason to their own selfish ends. They do not even hesitate to use undesirable means for their own growth.
But hikmah (wisdom) is reason synthesised with higher values. Hikmah is no mere concern with reason as an instrument but promotion of higher values as a goal. Justice, equity, equality, human dignity, compassion, humanism are some of these higher values which reason should strive to promote. Thus hikmah is higher than reason. Hikmah, however, can never degenerate into unreason. Reason remains its important component. Thus Allah is described by the Qur'an as Hakim, 'Alim and Khabir i.e. Wise, Knower and Informed. Wisdom, knowledge and proper information can never lead to unreason. If any religious belief is based on unreason or irrationality, it must be rejected. Any religious belief must fulfill the criteria of reason and higher values. Such beliefs alone can be compatible with spiritual growth, human values and inner peace and richness.He talks about wisdom as a form of reason, and reason is not sufficient and don't forget that he didn't explain reason .A contraduction of terms .
The root of the word hikmah is h.k.m. which basically means to control and stop crossing the limit with firmness.
No, wrong, the root is Ha'a-kaf-Meem, and it does not mean control or stop crossing the limits as he claimed, it seems that he never read a word in arabic . I've explained the word Hakama before . control is "Tahakama or saytara".
Thus hakamat in Arabic means reining in the horse in a way which will not allow horse to get out of control (see Kitab al-Ishtiqaq ).
That was funny . that shows that this person never heard Arabic before .
Firs of all hakamat means a female governs a (country or an empire or whatever ..etc)
Second of all the word which means reining the horse in a way wich will not allow horse to get out of control is "" and without a sentence will not mean reining any horse this is the sentence " " means (reining the horse .....of control)
The root of hakama also conveys the sense of stopping within the limits so that one does not commit excess.
The root means nothing, the root is letters . and with gathering the root also means nothing if it is not in a sentence to mean that . The word alone hakama means (to judge) or (to govern) .
One should know what is the limit beyond which one should not go.
That will be this word " "
And a Haakim is one who properly judges the limit and does not allow the people to cross this limit.
Haakim means wise man . Hakem means governor .
the one who properly judges called "" or "" .
Hakim is one who judges the limit.
Hakim is the governor and it is not with "i" is Hakem.
Thus one who is appointed to judge and arbitrate is also called hakam and government is called hukumat because its function is to judge the behaviour of the people and to restrain them from crossing the limits of law.
This is right and it's contradict whith what he said before .
Allah has been described by the Qur'an as Ahkam al-Hakimin i.e. justest of the just because He lays down the rules of justice and exhorts people not to transcend limits. He is the source of justice and just guidance. And al-hikmah carries the sense of judgement which is just and takes into account the rights of every one and does not violate any ones rights. Hikmah is that which bridles our unjust tendencies and brings about and promotes what is based on proper balance and would stop disorder and mischief. Hikmah is prevention of all that is bad, evil or unjust and violative of what is judged to be right by all.
AL-HIKMA in what ? is that the word The HIkma that came after the book of Allah means this ? if Yes , why it came after the boook of Allah and we know that God already described his book by Hakim ? what is the difference ?
Qur'an has also been described as Hakeem as it provides guidance to us so that a just social order can be brought into existence which is not violative of descent limits. This alone can lead to a stable society. Thus istihkam (firmness, stability) is also derived from this root because it is only just and balanced society which can remain firm and stability. A society which is not based on these values will experience repeated upheavals and instability.
Yes, this is not new , Quran has a lot of describtion one of them is HIKMA, so it is a description but about this "the book and the hikma" let me remind you that it is not description .
This it will be seen that the Qur'an lays great emphasis on hikmah (wisdom) as it intends to establish a properly balanced society based on values which ensures growth and development of all human beings and this growth is as much spiritual as material, it should be as much inner as outer material growth. It is this balance between spiritual and material growth which will ensure a humane society. Thus hikmah becomes very fundamental to the Qur'anic discourse. It is, as pointed out before, a synthesis of reason and higher values.
Well, we know that we can extract Hikma from Quran and from any place and from any man and from the word . is this need a book to tell us about that matter wich is in our extinct ? God described his Quran by a lot of describtion one of it is Hakim and it is not a noun. But when he mentioned this word as a noun what does he meant ? The booK and the wisdom . there is a difference between the noun and the description .
There is a lot of description of Quran in Quran but are they came this way "the book and the XXXX(descrption).
You take your lessons from someone has a lot of mistakes and he does not get the word right . what a shame .
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Non, now quit playing the village idiot. You like the appeal to majority, now all of a sudden...the wormeth turneth? It is now an appeal to the minority? How many people exactly said "you was more than juste" whatever that means? A dude that hangs around the forum with different usernames waiting on pounce and play upon old grudges, that's who. That's your people. Right. I'm sick and tired of this sort of crap being lobbed all over the forum. This is a place for learning, sharing and in the end, for those that don't agree with the main message of the site, do your own thingy and go away. If you want to stick around in that case, one'd better have something more than their brilliant personality to carry the day is all.
Those that insist on sticking around speaking in tongues claiming the quran said this and that and REFUSE to come up with any evidence from the quran should get well acquainted with Rule 2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to the study and understanding of the Scripture (Quran). Thus, mocking/ridiculing/insulting it and/or not being able to back-up Quranic based claims (i.e. Quran says this or that) with specifics may result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
This is not the first time we have had those that disagree, we have sterling examples in the past of people (yes, note the plural) from different faiths/sects whatnot curious and/or disagreeing, discussing with reasoning/logic, and all around enrichment from the experience. The difference by contrast is...there are those that come here for kicks (time to burn/I have no friends!), for ego stroking (I know kungfu/arabic/hear me roar!), for asserting some delusion of superiority (we are the chosen sect, you're all losers lalalala!), for thinking they are bonafide "warriors of Allah" meant to smite such forums down (ironically with no evidence from the quran itself but who needs that when one has "hikma" where they can find whatever they want eh?)
Now you have a choice. Either post your evidence from the quran for your claims on this thread, or slink away into the sunset.My thread is full of Quranic based claims , you can't deny that, it is you who speak without a verse and you can't back up Quranic based claims . You like to talk and just to talk . I stiil carry the challenge one thread me and you and Quran. About those who disagree with you or with the forum were not as they supposed to be, I'm better and just to make it clear for you, no chance to defeat me in your own part of the world .
The thread is full of verses, did you come up with one disagree with what I said ? sorry the answer is no . I read the forum rules , so I hold the stick from the middle .
You want to defeat me, here we go I'm challenging in a thread me and you with Quran alone, no use of any hadith.