what do you say about this ?
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"Believer" is a conditional term. Refer to 4914 onwards. That is to say, a person can be considered to be in a state of belief at a given moment in time. In that moment in time that he is considered a "believer" there is NO question that he is obeying "Allah and his messenger". If he is not obeying Allah and his messenger then he is NOT a believer and he is indeed in error.
The next stage is to consider, what is a believer? If you look in the quran, following conjecture of humans and that which our fathers obeyed without questioning it is a fundamental act of non-belief and punishable by a very nice chastisement. I hope that those who do this will enjoy their well-deserved chastisement in the barbeque .fftopic .
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And how is this off topic, you are quite the silly goose at times.
All acts of people considered "believers" are considered "believing acts" because they obey Allah and obey the messenger at the same time.
Do you think the prophet can make a judgement against the will of Allah and say it is from Allah?
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lets see if their answer is different than this
2334
"If you obey a human being like you, then you are really losers.
Yes, you're right because here God said do not obey a human being ( a non-believer) not a well educated Muslims.
Ah just to add
459 { O you who believe! Obey All?h and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to All?h and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in All?h and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.}
You see God order us to obey Muslims who are in authority and they are the scholars and shouyoukh and the scientists of Quran and Hadith .
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And how is this off topic, you are quite the silly goose at times.
The subject is not about the word "believers" and it will be another topic about that if God willing . The word believer is too hard for you, I'd like to call you "Muslim" because believing is something else.
All acts of people considered "believers" are considered "believing acts" because they obey Allah and obey the messenger at the same time.
Well, you are mixing up between Muslims acts and believers acts. Let me remind you that they are in the same religion but they are not the same acts . Now back to the topic , I said the topic will begin by answering the question not being in Australia .
Do you think the prophet can make a judgement against the will of Allah and say it is from Allah?
No, Who said that the prophet can make things against Allah's words ?
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You see God order us to obey Muslims who are in authority and they are the scholars and shouyoukh and the scientists of Quran and Hadith .
Obey the scholars and shuyukh? No way! Go ahead and do that, if it makes you feel happy and safe. Those of us who prefer using their own brains can live very well without fatawa and ahkam.
peace
Btw., the Qur'an warns us to not take religious authorities as gods beside God. That's what the early Jews and Christians did, and they went astray. Pretty much the same thing that's happening in mainstream Islam right now. -
Obey the scholars and shuyukh? No way! Go ahead and do that, if it makes you feel happy and safe. Those of us who prefer using their own brains can live very well without fatawa and ahkam.
So why you are claiming that you're following Quran ? Let me remind you that scholars and shouyoukh have deep studies in Quran and its Bayan and they are the Muslims who they are in authority today . Ah you like using your mind alone without study in Islamic school and find interpretations from your desires, so sorry you are not following Quran, you're following in english words that's all of it.
Btw., the Qur'an warns us to not take religious authorities as gods beside God. That's what the early Jews and Christians did, and they went astray. Pretty much the same thing that's happening in mainstream Islam right now.
You're under the ones that God warns us
( )
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So let me give you an example from the ahadeeth, of the prophet supposedly making something against Allah's words.
Volume 1, Book 10, Number 512
Narrated Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, "In very hot weather delay the Zuhr prayer till it becomes (a bit) cooler because the severity of heat is from the raging of Hell-fire. The Hell-fire of Hell complained to its Lord saying O Lord! My parts are eating (destroying) one another. So Allah allowed it to take two breaths, one in the winter and the other in the summer. The breath in the summer is at the time when you feel the severest heat and the breath in the winter is at the time when you feel the severest cold."
This is patently absurd. Allah's word is that the Earth orbits the sun in a guided course. The seasons arise as a result of the tilt of the Earth's orbital axis. A contradiction to reality is hence portrayed here unless we conclude that hell has an infinite number of lungs which perpetually breathe in and out based on every single last point of the earth's surface. Such an understanding still does not explain where hell has room to breathe in some points in the Arctic.
Glory be to God who guides his messenger with truth and may the curse of Allah (swt) be on those who seek to distort his words!
Of course many such contradictions with reality can be found in the words of Bukhari which are never comparable to the words of Allah and the words of his messenger that coincide with the words of Allah.
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So why you are claiming that you're following Quran ? Let me remind you that scholars and shouyoukh have deep studies in Quran and its Bayan
So? They are not infallible. If I see an interpretation by a scholar that I don't agree with, it is perfectly within my right to ignore it.
Qur'an asks us to use our minds and hearts in order to determine if an information is correct, it does not encourage blindly following anyone, be they scholars or whatever.
Sorry, but if you want to argue for the authority of scholars, you have clearly come to the wrong place. Why don't you go to one of the countless Sunni forums where you will find many like-minded people to exchange your thoughts with?
peace
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You see God order us to obey Muslims who are in authority and they are the scholars and shouyoukh and the scientists of Quran and Hadith .
you are right bro, 544 confirms this line of thinking
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat5_files/5_44.gif
It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to God's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of God's book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers. -
So? They are not infallible. If I see an interpretation by a scholar that I don't agree with, it is perfectly within my right to ignore it.
what do you mean by not infallible ? if someone is not infallible, we don't take anything from him, are you kidding ? They made the laws and the interpretations according to the studies that they do or did , did you do one of it ? plus there are not just one , there are lots. So Eistein was not infallible and he created the theory of relativity which is now the basics of everything. Thomas Edison was not infallible and he created the lampe, doctors are not infallible , they have created medicaments curing 98 % . This is nonsense about not infallible . No you shouldn't ignore what they said if you don't have arguments that disagree with what they said . the use of mind is with knowledge not with ignorance of the matter.
Qur'an asks us to use our minds and hearts in order to determine if an information is correct, it does not encourage blindly following anyone, be they scholars or whatever.
Yes, the use of mind is with knowledge . Do you know why the prophet the only one that he received Quran ?
Sorry, but if you want to argue for the authority of scholars, you have clearly come to the wrong place. Why don't you go to one of the countless Sunni forums where you will find many like-minded people to exchange your thoughts with?
This is not your business, are you having some knid phobia of truth ?
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So? They are not infallible. If I see an interpretation by a scholar that I don't agree with, it is perfectly within my right to ignore it.
Qur'an asks us to use our minds and hearts in order to determine if an information is correct, it does not encourage blindly following anyone, be they scholars or whatever.
Sorry, but if you want to argue for the authority of scholars, you have clearly come to the wrong place. Why don't you go to one of the countless Sunni forums where you will find many like-minded people to exchange your thoughts with?
peace
if this forum is to discuss quran and he is using verses of quran to back up his point of view then why you want him to go somewhere else???
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So who are these 'with authority' from amongst us and what is their role?
459 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
Peace
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No you shouldn't ignore what they said if you don't have arguments that disagree with what they said . the use of mind is with knowledge not with ignorance of the matter.
Look, I explained my stance on this issue to you previously, so I'm not going to waste my time writing all of that again.
Of course I have arguments and use knowledge when disagreeing with a scholar. There are countless texts and fatawa by scholars out there where it is very easy to see ignorance, deliberate misinterpretations, scientifically wrong statements and so on and so forth. You don't need decades of religious study in order to see that, this is just a silly argument to keep people from thinking and questioning.
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So who are these 'with authority' from amongst us and what is their role?
459 O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination.
Peace
how quran explains that verse, I would like to know that too.... thanks in advance.
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So let me give you an example from the ahadeeth, of the prophet supposedly making something against Allah's words.
The example that you gave is about Hell and not about ligeslations as you said before .We are talking about ligeslations and laws from the prophet , read the thread .
This is patently absurd. Allah's word is that the Earth orbits the sun in a guided course. The seasons arise as a result of the tilt of the Earth's orbital axis. A contradiction to reality is hence portrayed here unless we conclude that hell has an infinite number of lungs which perpetually breathe in and out based on every single last point of the earth's surface. Such an understanding still does not explain where hell has room to breathe in some points in the Arctic.
The only thing absurd is your logic, is the hadith said that the hell is it the responsible of the seasons of "summer" or "winter ? No, the hadith is about that the heat of summer is a breath of hell and the cold of winter is a reat of hell. There is no mentionning that Hell is influencing the seasons or anything else. And justifying this hadith from Quran
( ً / 12
2512 { When it (Hell) sees them from a far place, they will hear its raging and its roaring.}
Glory be to God who guides his messenger with truth and may the curse of Allah (swt) be on those who seek to distort his words!
Hypocrites say these things too .
Of course many such contradictions with reality can be found in the words of Bukhari which are never comparable to the words of Allah and the words of his messenger that coincide with the words of Allah.
No, the Hadith after all is not about ligeslation and you don't even understand it as it seems that you don't even understand science .
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Look, I explained my stance on this issue to you previously, so I'm not going to waste my time writing all of that again.
Of course I have arguments and use knowledge when disagreeing with a scholar. There are countless texts and fatawa by scholars out there where it is very easy to see ignorance, deliberate misinterpretations, scientifically wrong statements and so on and so forth. You don't need decades of religious study in order to see that, this is just a silly argument to keep people from thinking and questioning.
Yes, I know arguments from your desires. Ah by the way you always choose the scholars that talked about women.
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The example that you gave is about Hell and not about ligeslations as you said before .We are talking about ligeslations and laws from the prophet , read the thread .
The only thing absurd is your logic, is the hadith said that the hell is it the responsible of the seasons of "summer" or "winter ? No, the hadith is about that the heat of summer is a breath of hell and the cold of winter is a reat of hell. There is no mentionning that Hell is influencing the seasons or anything else. And justifying this hadith from Quran
( ً / 12
2512 { When it (Hell) sees them from a far place, they will hear its raging and its roaring.}
Hypocrites say these things too .
No, the Hadith after all is not about ligeslation and you don't even understand it as it seems that you don't even understand science .
This is a judgement from the prophet, it is legislation. According to Bukhari, Allah's messenger ordained/judged/legislated for us that we should delay the "Zuhr prayer" because of this raging of hell fire. The heat of the summer and coolness of the winter arise from the distance from Sun to Earth. Maximum heat is obtained when Earth is closest to the Sun and minimum heat is obtained when Earth is farthest away from sun. No "hellfire" unless you are claiming Allah will throw all the disbelievers into the sun which happens to be the hellfire.
If legislation does not come from ahadeeth then where does it come from? So I suppose you mean "those charged with authority amongst you". This still does not explain why the prophet is talking out of line with the words of Allah in the so-called "Sahih Al-Bukhari".
Additionally this correlates with you claiming al-hikmah = sunnah. This is a clear lack of "al-hikmah" in the "sunnah". If Allah sends down al-hikma nowhere along will it lack such a thing.
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Dear Thereformer1,
Please let us know whether the Prophet(pbuh) was following The Qur'aan ONLY, or he mixed it up with his own inventions too. In other words, tell us if the Prophet was a SUNNI or just a MUSLIM, a follower of The Qur'aan ONLY.
Just answer my question I highlighted above. It is short and STRAIGHTFORWARD. It is not of the MUTASHAABIHAAT, in a way that confuses you. I put it to you once more. Was the Prophet a SUNNI or just a MUSLIM, a follower of The Qur?aan ONLY?
Besides, in 638, didn't GOD say that He did not left ANYTHING OUT of the book? Doesn't it mean that we do NOT need any other source of GUIDANCE beside The Qur'aan?
In 3531,32, did GOD say that we inherited SUNNAH on top of The Qur?aan too, or He said that He made us the inheritors of The Qur?aan ALONE?
I do consider you, i.e., the SECTARIANS, as the disbeliveers in following The Qur?aan ALONE. The Prohpet(pbuh) himself was the follower of The Qur?aan ALONE. Don?t you think so?
In 3923 GOD tells us that The Qur'aan is the BEST HADITH.
If you are not a disbeliver in the verse 3923, then why you believe-in and follow the ?HADITH of the prophet? too?
You, the SECTARIANS, are following man made words not AUTHORIZED by GOD.
Peace,
Khalil -
This is a judgement from the prophet, it is legislation. According to Bukhari, Allah's messenger ordained/judged/legislated for us that we should delay the "Zuhr prayer" because of this raging of hell fire. The heat of the summer and coolness of the winter arise from the distance from Sun to Earth. Maximum heat is obtained when Earth is closest to the Sun and minimum heat is obtained when Earth is farthest away from sun. No "hellfire" unless you are claiming Allah will throw all the disbelievers into the sun which happens to be the hellfire.
What are you talking about ? The hadith has nothing to do with summer or winter or the movement of earth in its orbit or in its farthest point from sun or the closest point from sun . The hadith said that the breath of hell in the summer is not about the closest point of Earth from the sun, neither about the farthest point of earth accompanied with the breath of hell in winter .You're talking like an atheist who believes just in science, there are things that science can't explain. The Hadith is about the breat of Hell in summer and in winter wich they have nothing with the season of summer in its normal heat and the winter in its normal cold accompanied with the breath of hell in both of them.
By the way Salla "AZuhr" is in Quran .
If legislation does not come from ahadeeth then where does it come from? So I suppose you mean "those charged with authority amongst you". This still does not explain why the prophet is talking out of line with the words of Allah in the so-called "Sahih Al-Bukhari".
The Ahadeeth are from the prophet peace be upon him and they are not againts God's words, you said that because of your ignorance, and Bukhari has just deliver a science had work hards to deliever it to us . Do you think that he is just write this book without studying the contents ? let me remind you that he stocked Quran in his mind when he was ten years old .
Additionally this correlates with you claiming al-hikmah = sunnah. This is a clear lack of "al-hikmah" in the "sunnah". If Allah sends down al-hikma nowhere along will it lack such a thing.
Sunnah is full of wisdom, take it as read .
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Yes, I know arguments from your desires. Ah by the way you always choose the scholars that talked about women.
No, certainly not always. But you are correct, I often pick texts dealing with women's issues because in those, hypocrisy and biasness are easily detected and sometimes shockingly blatant.
It's not only the scholars' interpretations of Qur'anic verses, but moreso the hair raising statements and theories they often cite in order to support their opinions that makes many scholars lose credibility.
To give you an example -- prominent Saudi cleric Salih al-Munajjid claims that
~ God has made men superior to women.
~ men are superior to women and are better than women.
~ men are better than women, because the masculine is honour and perfection, whereas the feminine naturally has something lacking physically.
~ Men are more intelligent and have a better ability to distinguish right from wrong.
~ Men have the advantage of being more wise and more capable of management
~ Men?s religion is more complete
~ he is more perfect in rational thinking than her in most cases
~ Because of their weakness, women are not able to do many things. Women are imperfect
~ Women are weaker than men in memory and forget more than men do.
(All those are verbatim quotes.)
None of this, obviously, can be found in the Qur'an. But, to make it worse, the scheikh then goes on to claim that all this nonsense is scientifically proven. He says that scientific research has shown that the male brain is superior to the female brain, which not only shows his blatant misogyny but is an outright and ridiculous lie. In addition, there are never any references, sources or links to his supposed studies; if he ever actually refers to a scientific study that is still available, you can be sure it is decades old, outdated and long disproved by newer research.
Or let's take your favourite scholar, Mr. Yusuf al Qaradawi. In one of his texts about polygamy he claims that a man should be allowed to take a second (or third or fourth) wife because supposedly a man is always willing and able to have sex, and a woman only rarely, so the poor men are not getting their fair share of sexual activity. He then goes on to compare women to buffalos and she-goats, saying those animals only have a desire for sex at the time they can get pregnant, and that it is the same in women.
That is ridiculous BS, and if it wasn't so sad, it would be hilarious. Our eminent scholar is basically saying that women only want to have sex a few days each month. And if I follow the above theory further, that would mean any post-menopausal woman, and every woman who is on the pill, or pregnant, never has a desire for sex. I don't think I need to explain that this is utter nonsense!
So you see, I don't need to be an expert in science of hadith, fiqh etc. pp. in order to see that those "eminent scholars" are blatant mysogynists whose personal opinions clearly influence their fatawa. I.e., they are the ones interpreting God's laws according to their own desires and twisted view of the world.
A bit of common sense and the ability to observe the world around me with my own eyes is absolutely sufficient.