Non-muslims in Jannah?
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I do not "deny the messenger"
I did not accuse you of doing so. I was merely answering your own question - "Then the question becomes, what is denying the Quran?" - with the preceding example you had already given ie "denying the messenger". Denying the messenger constitutes denying the Qur'an because the Qur'an states that Muhammad is the messenger.
I have said that denying the Quran is actively opposing it by going contrary to to its laws.
With which I agree.
I feel that if you do exactly what the Quran tells you not to do (i.e. shirk, kill people, etc), than you are denying the quran.
I agree with all that statement except the claim that killing people is doing the opposite of what the Qur'an says - which is not true. Therefore in this instance you ARE denying the Qur'an.
Actions and what is truly in people's hearts are key here, not just lip service.
That is right. Belief AND practice are crucial. A person who professes the former and wilfully neglects the latter is, according to the Qur'an, a hypocrite ie a "Muslim" in name only. Likewise a person who does not accept the Quran as the divine word cannot be anything but a kafir even if they live their lives according to your list above.
The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Reading this verse has made me realize that I was not as clear as I should have been when I defined belief in my first response....This is because this verse indicates that the world is not just split up into denial and belief. There is also submission.
A person can "submit" to Allah's commandments without belief. However they are still a disbeliever destined for hell. On the other hand someone who claims to be a believer and, for instance, knowingly consumes alcohol contrary to the words of Allah is a "Muslim" in name only.
Submission.....is obeying the laws set down by Allah and given to humanity through his messenger.
Agreed
submission requires action.
Agreed
I'm sure that you will with agree with this since the verse says "he will not withold from you aught of your deeds," which are equated with submission as opposed to the faith, which is equated with belief.
Are you claiming that "good deeds" without belief will save a person from the eternal punishment?
....since submission is action based, someone can say they are submitting yet be denying the quran as their actions are in conflict with the divine text.
Agreed
Further, someone can say they deny the quran yet still obey the laws of Allah given through his messenger to humanity.
People may do things for a variety of reasons which concur with certain Quranic injunctions. EG Someone, may eschew alcohol because they regard it as unhealthy. They may give charity out of sympathy for destitute people. However, this is NOT the same thing as "obeying the laws of Allah" because one accepts that the Qur'an is of divine origin. Are you suggesting that a tee total, alms-giving Roman Catholic who believes in the holy trinity will not go to hell for that belief alone?
The one who says he (or she) submits is actually denying the quran through sin
Agree
and the one who says he (or she) does not follow the Quran is submitting to God's laws by giving charity, etc.
disagree
Thus Quran denial is not just something you say, it is something you do by actively not submitting.
Agree. Although I do not agree that it logically follows from your contorted reasoning above.
I disagree when you say that in these verses, the "SELF deception" is the sin.
Surely, if someone deceives themselves that they are being good Muslims even though they, for instance, deny the ongoing applicability of flogging fornicators, they are engaging in what the Quran would consider a sin.
I believe that the disbelief is the sin here.
Agree
Also, I hope your not accusing me of trying to twist the meaning of ayats.
I wasn't. But I am not so sure now considering what you have written since.
Also,
I said...
"Further, someone who says "I don't believe in the Quran" could actually be a submitter to the Quran because he follows its laws."
You said in response...
why would someone do that?Maybe because there parents raised them Jewish or something else. I changed my first quote to reflect my change of opinion concerning belief.
Fine
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Salaam
Again, I am not God so this is only how I think he will judge, not how he will judge.
"I did not accuse you of doing so. I was merely answering your own question - "Then the question becomes, what is denying the Quran?" - with the preceding example you had already given ie "denying the messenger". Denying the messenger constitutes denying the Qur'an because the Qur'an states that Muhammad is the messenger."
The messenger's only duty was to deliver the message. He was a human like the rest of us. Lets leave this because there are plenty of debates on the issue.
"I agree with all that statement except the claim that killing people is doing the opposite of what the Qur'an says - which is not true. Therefore in this instance you ARE denying the Qur'an."
You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand. (6151)
The verse pretty clearly says don't kill ("you shall not kill" except in the course of justice and even killing in the course of justice is not a command as we are often encouraged to forgive (read relevant verses concerning law of equivalence). I am about to go on a rant about the difference in profession and action so be patient. Sidenote I love how easy it is for you to actually say to someone they are denying the Quran and thus going to hell. No uncertainty here."That is right. Belief AND practice are crucial. A person who professes the former and wilfully neglects the latter is, according to the Qur'an, a hypocrite ie a "Muslim" in name only. Likewise a person who does not accept the Quran as the divine word cannot be anything but a kafir even if they live their lives according to your list above."
You are missing the point. Belief is not that simple that you can just "profess it," to use your lingo, as the nomads have. Rather obeying the laws of Allah are the important thing here. We can only pray that Allah will give us "faith" so as to give us true "belief," not lip service.
"Are you claiming that "good deeds" without belief will save a person from the eternal punishment?"
That's what I'm getting at. The nomads in the verse that I stated before could not say they believed because "faith had not entered their hearts." They did not believe. Yet, they were not promised eternal hell fire as a result. The world is not split up into two groups of believers and deniers; denying the quran in my opinion is not that simple. Rather, the nomads were still told to submit as "He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds." Deeds is the key word here. You can work your way into heaven even though you may not believe. If professions are weak in determining if you believe or not, how can they be used then to determine if you deny the Quran or not? Rather, in the verse we are told that actions determine if you submit or not. Again, even though these nomads don't believe, there is NO promise of eternal torture here (I don't believe in eternal torture). Thus you can not believe and still avoid eternal punishment.
Also, Abraham could not believe in the Quran, the Gospel, Jesus, Muhammad, etc since they weren't around yet. He was still called a submitter and I venture to say that at least you believe he is in heaven."People may do things for a variety of reasons which concur with certain Quranic injunctions. EG Someone, may eschew alcohol because they regard it as unhealthy. They may give charity out of sympathy for destitute people. However, this is NOT the same thing as "obeying the laws of Allah" because one accepts that the Qur'an is of divine origin. Are you suggesting that a tee total, alms-giving Roman Catholic who believes in the holy trinity will not go to hell for that belief alone?"
I have not mentioned shirk yet so lets leave that out as well. Imagine a good Jew (no shirk).
When you say obeying the laws is NOT the same thing as "obeying the laws of Allah" because one accepts that the Qur'an is of divine origin," I agree. I assume by "accept" you mean believe the Quran is of divine origin as that is what we are discussing. But belief is not required for submission as we are told. Again, verse 4913 explicitly says that the nomads can not say they are believers because they are not. Lip service does not suffice for the faith that is required to become a true believer in God, the Angels, Scriptures, etc. Still, the nomads are not promised hell. They are told to obey Allah and the messenger (i.e. their laws) and that their deeds will still be rewarded. Thus you don't need to believe (have faith) in the divine origins of the Quran; it is something that you should pray for that God will strengthen your faith and make you a true believer. You can still follow the natural laws of the Quran though without having faith in its divine origins as the nomads have done.
Also, I am confused as I think you may be saying that God's laws are arbitrary as opposed to derived from his wholly rational and good nature. Doesn't God tell us to eschew alchohol and intoxicants because they cause us harm? Doesn't God tell us to give charity 'out of sympathy for destitute people?' Or did God just give us these rules randomly so he could see who would obey him, not see who is truly in line with his good nature? IF God was just giving these rules randomly, couldn't he tell you to do anything like commit genocide? Don't arbitrary laws destroy the notion of good and bad?"Surely, if someone deceives themselves that they are being good Muslims even though they, for instance, deny the ongoing applicability of flogging fornicators, they are engaging in what the Quran would consider a sin."
The deception has never been indicated as the sin. The denying of Allah, etc is the sin. If you don't know by now, I think actions are key and "professions" are useless.
"I wasn't. But I am not so sure now considering what you have written since."
Funny...
Peace
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Salaam
O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray (Yusuf Ali)
I forgot to add that it is not a contradiction to say the those who believe God, the last day and do Good will go to heaven while saying that "Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, had gone far, far astray." I mean when you deny all that stuff, sure you have gone super far astray but if you at least believe in God, the Last Day and do good, you have nothing to fear (see Jafar's post, 262).
Peace
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Salaam
O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray (Yusuf Ali)
I forgot to add that it is not a contradiction to say the those who believe in God, the last day and do Good will go to heaven while saying that "Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, had gone far, far astray." I mean when you deny all that stuff, sure you have gone super far astray but if you at least believe in God, the Last Day and do good, you have nothing to fear (see Jafar's post, 262). This is even if you do deny the books, apostles, etc in the sense that you define it.
Peace
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peace sot,
Background
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/muslim-or-hell.htmAnd furthermore sura 929 orders the true believers to wage war against the Kafir Jews and Christians until they pay jizya.
929 uses the partitive "min" (from/of/among). Thus, the obvious question becomes whom out of that group? The answer is within the context.
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Again, I am not God so this is only how I think he will judge, not how he will judge.
Allah is quite clear how he will judge people who explicitly or implicitly deny the messenger and therefore the divine origin of the Qur'an. He will burn them in hell forever. Playing semantic games with the clear words of Allah is a form of kufr.
The messenger's only duty was to deliver the message.
And the MESSAGE (Qur'an) that he delivered says that denying the messenger is an eternally burnable offense.
You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice.
That is in the course of what the Qur'an defines as justice. Not what the kuffar define as justice. Agree?
Sidenote I love how easy it is for you to actually say to someone they are denying the Quran and thus going to hell. No uncertainty here.
Of course it's easy to say that because that is what the Qur'an clearly states
To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle Such is Our reward for those in sin.Theirs will be a bed of hell, and over them coverings (of hell). Thus do We requite wrong-doers. (7 40-41)
You are missing the point. Belief is not that simple that you can just "profess it," to use your lingo, as the nomads have.
I understand the point perfectly. Saying "I believe" when your deeds speak otherwise does not qualify a person as a TRUE believer. This does not mean, as you seem to be claiming, that living in an "Islamic" way when you do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad DOES qualify a person as a "believer".
Rather obeying the laws of Allah are the important thing here.
However, this alone does NOT qualify someone as a believer who will be spared the eternal punishment.
"Are you claiming that "good deeds" without belief will save a person from the eternal punishment?"
That's what I'm getting at. The nomads in the verse that I stated before could not say they believed because "faith had not entered their hearts." They did not believe. Yet, they were not promised eternal hell fire as a result. denying the quran in my opinion is not that simple. Rather, the nomads were still told to submit as "He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds." Deeds is the key word here. You can work your way into heaven even though you may not believe.
Now you have to explain why your "interpretation" does not contradict verses like 18103-106
Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works? They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) VAIN will be their WORKS, NOR SHALL WE, ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT, GIVE THEM ANY WEIGHT. That is their reward, HELL, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
How much clearer than that can you get? If you implicitly or explicitly disbelieve in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of the Qur'an your deeds won't count for squat.
The world is not split up into two groups of believers and deniers
What????
(I don't believe in eternal torture).
Then you don't believe in the the Qur'an in which the eternal torture is repeatedly graphically described.
Also, Abraham could not believe in the Quran, the Gospel, Jesus, Muhammad, etc since they weren't around yet. He was still called a submitter and I venture to say that at least you believe he is in heaven.
Your reasoning is getting more and more convoluted.
I have not mentioned shirk yet so lets leave that out as well. Imagine a good Jew (no shirk).
Still a hell-bound Kafir if he doesn't accept the prophethood of Muhammad.
"Surely, if someone deceives themselves that they are being good Muslims even though they, for instance, deny the ongoing applicability of flogging fornicators, they are engaging in what the Quran would consider a sin."
The deception has never been indicated as the sin.
In the verse in question, Allah clearly means that those who deceive themselves into believing they are good Muslims when they are not will go to hell - however much you may wish to delude yourself otherwise.
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929 uses the partitive "min" (from/of/among). Thus, the obvious question becomes whom out of that group? The answer is within the context.
And the "context" is
(929) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as
believe not in Allah nor the Last Day,
and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger,
and follow not the Religion of Truth,
until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Which encompasses everybody on earth who calls themselves a "Jew" or a "Christian".
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Salaam,
We are getting repetitive but,...
First, you said...
"Allah is quite clear how he will judge people who explicitly or implicitly deny the messenger and therefore the divine origin of the Qur'an. He will burn them in hell forever. Playing semantic games with the clear words of Allah is a form of kufr."Even if Allah is quite clear (we humans are weak and what should be clear, often isn't), would you be so cocky as to know how God will judge in every situation? Could you, considering you know all about how God will judge, take his job as judge for a little while? If not, then you should show some humility before you drop some Kufr bombs.
You also brought up this verse...
Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works? They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) VAIN will be their WORKS, NOR SHALL WE, ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT, GIVE THEM ANY WEIGHT. That is their reward, HELL, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest. 18103-106
How much clearer than that can you get? If you implicitly or explicitly disbelieve in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of the Qur'an your deeds won't count for squat."In this verse, those who think they are acquiring good are probably those who sin and concentrate on the material goods of the world thinking that their wealth is good (referenced many times in the quran). We are talking about a good Jew so denying Judgement is not an issue. Again, it is not an explicit or implicit contradiction to say that someone could deny the messenger and the Quran using your definition (which I dislike) and still get into heaven. This verse says they rejected Faith, and took MY Signs and My Messengers by way of jest. Other verses which we have gone over say that Jews, Christians, Sabians and all those who believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good will have nothing to fear. This latter verse can be seen as an at least statement. At least do this (believe in God, etc), and you will not have anything to fear and the former verse can be seen as a you did all of this bad stuff in conjunction, not just deny the Quran (using your definition of course). It doesn't explicity say that if you believe in God, judgement, and do good, that if you deny the quran, you will go to hell. It says, when you deny faith, and make a mockery of the messengers and signs, a bunch of stuff in conjunction, you will go to hell, which is different from the latter verse since elements of this verse where everything bad is done in conjunction, are not done.
Again though, I have gone over multiple times what I think denial is or taking "My signs and my messengers by way of jest" is. It is being a bad person. Mere profession is no means of denial but I've gone over this in practically all my last posts. I feel that you are not adequately addressing my definition.
Peace
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I forgot to add...
007.037
YUSUFALI Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Signs? For such, their portion appointed must reach them from the Book (of decrees) until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, they say "Where are the things that ye used to invoke besides Allah?" They will reply, "They have left us in the lurch," And they will bear witness against themselves, that they had rejected Allah.The verse 740 you quoted where it says those who reject our signs is about those who reject Allah and shirk as the context shows. It is the same way "rejecting the signs of Allah" is used in the other verse you offered (18103-106). This is different from denying the Quran is of divine origin or that Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah. The verse refers to polytheists who reject the signs that Allah is one and were arrogant. We are talking about a Good Jew who believes in God, Judgement, and does good so that verse is irrelevant.
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First, you said..."Allah is quite clear how he will judge people who explicitly or implicitly deny the messenger and therefore the divine origin of the Qur'an. He will burn them in hell forever. Playing semantic games with the clear words of Allah is a form of kufr."
Even if Allah is quite clear (we humans are weak and what should be clear, often isn't), would you be so cocky as to know how God will judge in every situation?
What "situations" can you conceive of in which Allah will judge otherwise?
Could you, considering you know all about how God will judge....
I am only going by what the Qur'an says page after page ie that Allah will burn disbelievers in hell. Would you like a list of quotes? I see no evidence therein that there are situations where he will allow kafirs to enter the garden under any circumstances. Perhaps you could provide some.
...take his job as judge for a little while? If not, then you should show some humility before you drop some Kufr bombs.
Why am I showing a lack of "humility" by presenting the bare fact, backed up with quotes from the Qur'an, that there is no way Allah is going to do anything but burn burn burn Jews, Christians or anyone else who explicitly or implicitly denies the prophethood of Muhammad etc?
You also brought up this verse...
Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works? They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) VAIN will be their WORKS, NOR SHALL WE, ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT, GIVE THEM ANY WEIGHT. That is their reward, HELL, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest. 18103-106How much clearer than that can you get? If you implicitly or explicitly disbelieve in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of the Qur'an your deeds won't count for squat."
In this verse, those who think they are acquiring good are probably those who sin and concentrate on the material goods of the world thinking that their wealth is good (referenced many times in the quran).
Indeed this verse surely does cover such people. However, this does not mean its applicability is LIMITED to them, as verse 919 clarifies
Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
See? Giving drinks to thirsty pilgrims - clearly a good deed - does not save a Kafir from being regarded as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes. Do you deny that the greatest "wrong" in the sight of Allah is denying his signs?
We are talking about a good Jew so denying Judgement is not an issue.
That is right. A "good" Jew - like a "good" Christian - is according to the Qur'an one who accepts the prophethood of Muhammad
They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate.They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good works They are in the ranks of the righteous.Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knows well those that do right. (3.113-115)
Again, it is not an explicit or implicit contradiction to say that someone could deny the messenger and the Quran using your definition (which I dislike) and still get into heaven.
It is not MY definition. It is Allah's, who provides numerous examples of where the term "Kafir" is properly applied to people.
This verse says they rejected Faith, and took MY Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
So you are saying that in order to qualify as a Kafir a person must both
- "reject faith"
AND
- "take signs and messengers by way of jest"
????
Suppose they are just guilty of (1). Does that mean Allah will not regard them as a Kafir and treat them gently on judgement day?
Other verses which we have gone over say that Jews, Christians, Sabians and all those who believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good will have nothing to fear.
ONE verse says this. Are you claiming that Jews, Christians, Sabians et al who explicitly or implicitly reject the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin the Qur'an might still be regarded by Allah as "believers in God" and "doers of good"?
This latter verse can be seen as an at least statement. At least do this (believe in God, etc), and you will not have anything to fear. and the former verse can be seen as a you did all of this bad stuff in conjunction, not just deny the Quran (using your definition of course).
You can read anything you like into anything with enough wishful thinking and mental gymnastics.
It doesn't explicity say that if you believe in God, judgement, and do good, that if you deny the quran, you will go to hell.
Only a complete self deluder or out and out deceit-monger would draw any other conclusion from the Qur'an as a whole.
Again though, I have gone over multiple times what I think denial is or taking "My signs and my messengers by way of jest" is. It is being a bad person.
Yes it is being a "bad person" as Allah defines a "bad person"
Those who reject among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein . They are the WORST of creatures.(987)
Mere profession is no means of denial but I've gone over this in practically all my last posts. I feel that you are not adequately addressing my definition.
Au contraire....I have done so thoroughly.
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Salaam,
First of all...
You did not answer my question. If you know how God will judge in the situations we are discussing, could you take his job? If not, humble yourself. Your human like the rest of us. You should not show 100% certainty in your interpretation regardless of how clear the Quran is.Secondly...
"I am only going by what the Qur'an says page after page ie that Allah will burn disbelievers in hell. Would you like a list of quotes? I see no evidence therein that there are situations where he will allow kafirs to enter the garden under any circumstances. Perhaps you could provide some."Perhaps you can show me where I have said explicitly that "kafirs are going to heaven" (I haven't). Rather, I have argued that your definition of kafir is incredibly flawed.
Next you said...
"Indeed this verse surely does cover such people. However, this does not mean its applicability is LIMITED to them, as verse 919 clarifies
Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong.
See? Giving drinks to thirsty pilgrims - clearly a good deed - does not save a Kafir from being regarded as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes. Do you deny that the greatest "wrong" in the sight of Allah is denying his signs?"This verse talks about those who commit shirk and disbelieve in Allah and the Last Day (see 917 where it says "idolators". We are not discussing shirk. We are looking at cases involving Jews, Christians, Sabians, those who believe in Allah and the last day and do good; do not include those Muslims, people of the book or others who live in a state of shirk (unless they have passed that stage and have asked for forgiveness). Please bring me relevent verses to discuss.
Next...
"That is right. A "good" Jew - like a "good" Christian - is according to the Qur'an one who accepts the prophethood of Muhammad
They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate.They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good works They are in the ranks of the righteous.Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knows well those that do right. (3.113-115)"I looked at nearly 10 translations and I could not find the portion in parentheses. You didn't happen to add it did you? Please do not assume your conclusion, prove it.
Next...
"So you are saying that in order to qualify as a Kafir a person must both- "reject faith"
AND - "take signs and messengers by way of jest"
?
Suppose they are just guilty of (1). Does that mean Allah will not regard them as a Kafir and treat them gently on judgement day?"
No, I am saying that there is not an explicit contradiction between saying that someone who disbelieves in Allah, and the last day and takes his signs and messengers by way of jest will go to hell and saying that someone who believes in allah, the last day, and does good will go to heaven. In one case, we have people who believe in allah and the last day and in the other we have people who do not. In order for there to be a contradiction, the circumstances would have to be the same. Thus, I feel it is best to take verse 262 at face value. Those who believe in God, the last day and do good will go to heaven regardless of what their professions (remember, words are cheap) concerning the Quran or the Prophet are.
Next...
"You can read anything you like into anything with enough wishful thinking and mental gymnastics.
Only a complete self deluder or out and out deceit-monger would draw any other conclusion from the Qur'an as a whole."These statement are irrelevant as they neither strengthen your case nor weaken my case. Please bring arguments, not insults.
Finally you say...
"Yes it is being a "bad person" as Allah defines a "bad person"
Those who reject among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein . They are the WORST of creatures.(987)"Our difference is I believe that rejection is not mere profession and you do. Our definitions of rejection in this verse are different.
Also, I would just like to ask you, do you believe in abrogation?
If not, do you believe that the verse 929 implores fighting those of the people of the book only in self defense situations since other verses concerning war in the quran prohibit fighting in any other situation?Salaam
- "reject faith"
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Quote from Wakas
929 uses the partitive "min" (from/of/among). Thus, the obvious question becomes whom out of that group? The answer is within the context.And the "context" is
(929) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as
believe not in Allah nor the Last Day,
and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger,
and follow not the Religion of Truth,
until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
Which encompasses everybody on earth who calls themselves a "Jew" or a "Christian".
The above perception is in total conflict with what has been said in the Verse.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29.gif
You people confront war, with those who do not believe in Allah, and nor believe in the Last Day;
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29a.gif
and nor they make that unlawful what Allah and His Messenger has declared unlawful
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29b.gif
and nor they acknowledge the Prescribed Truthful Code from those who were given the Book,
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29c.gif
until they pay the protection charges/tax compliantly while they are subdued/defeated.Please carefully see the conjunctions, one group is being defined with whom war is to be confrontedm not Jews and Christians.
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While I was a sunni, I remember during "my sunni school" we; the students had a debate whether Muhammad's father is in "Jannah" or "Narr" (hell) due to the following "Shahih Hadith" (legitimate rumor).
, . . .
A man ask O God messenger, where is my father? And he answered "In HELL!".
And after he's done (of doing something else), he call him up and said "Verily my father and your father both are in HELL!"
(Shahih Muslim Vol 1, pg 191)Thus.. in "Sunni's mindset" and belief
- Those who haven't got the chance to 'join sunni religion' and 'recite the shahada' and acknowledging Muhammad's prophet-hood, shall ends up in Hell.
- Muhammad can tell who and who shall go to Heaven or Hell, even those who he himself haven't got the chance to meet. (for example; his own father, supposedly named Abdullah which means Servant Of God, but alas he ends up in hell, according to his own son...)
- Sunnis are always concerned whether that guy and that lady (other people / group) shall ends up in heaven or hell. (usually the answer is hell, especially if the subject being discussed are not Sunnis)
Now.. I really find those line of thinking as "hillarious".. laugh
Salam / Peace
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First of all...
You did not answer my question. If you know how God will judge in the situations we are discussing, could you take his job?This is a nonsense question
You should not show 100% certainty in your interpretation regardless of how clear the Quran is.
How can you "interpret" "Kafirs will burn in hell" - incessantly reiterated throughout the Koran as anything but what is says except with a great deal of wishful thinking?
Perhaps you can show me where I have said explicitly that "kafirs are going to heaven" (I haven't). Rather, I have argued that your definition of kafir is incredibly flawed.
"My" definition of "Kafir" is the Qur'an's definition ie someone who in words or conduct explicitly or implicitly denies the divine origin of the Qur'an/prophethood of Muhammad - which are two sides of the same coin.
Next you said..."Indeed this verse surely does cover such people. However, this does not mean its applicability is LIMITED to them, as verse 919 clarifies
Do you make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah? They are not comparable in the sight of Allah and Allah guides not those who do wrong. See? Giving drinks to thirsty pilgrims - clearly a good deed - does not save a Kafir from being regarded as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes. Do you deny that the greatest "wrong" in the sight of Allah is denying his signs?"This verse talks about those who commit shirk and disbelieve in Allah and the Last Day (see 917 where it says "idolators". We are not discussing shirk.
Are you claiming that disbelief alone does not qualify a person as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes despite numerous Qur'an verses clearly stating otherwise? EG
Who DOES MORE WRONG than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His signs? But the WRONGDOERS never shall prosper. (621)
Now show me where in the Qur'an this verse and others like it is qualified by a statement like "except those dibelievers in Muhammad's prophethood who otherwise live a good life, give to charity, are kind to their parents, avoid alcohol etc etc"
We are looking at cases involving Jews, Christians, Sabians, those who believe in Allah and the last day and do good; do not include those Muslims, people of the book or others who live in a state of shirk
I have no argument with this. If you commit shirk you go to hell. Where we part company is your contention that someone can DISBELIEVE in the divine origin of the Qur'an/prophethood of Muhammad and still avoid the hellfire on the basis of "good deeds" alone.
Next...
"That is right. A "good" Jew - like a "good" Christian - is according to the Qur'an one who accepts the prophethood of Muhammad
They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, falling prostrate.They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten in good works They are in the ranks of the righteous.Of the good that they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for Allah knows well those that do right. (3.113-115)"I looked at nearly 10 translations and I could not find the portion in parentheses. You didn't happen to add it did you?
The square brackets clearly indicate that I did.
Please do not assume your conclusion....
I do not "assume" it. It is the only plausible conclusion that can be drawn from a thorough study of the Qur'an and cross referencing of its verses.
prove it
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah...." (4829)
Do you or do you not accept that someone who rejects the truth of this Qur'anic statement is a denier of the word of Allah/prophethood of Muhammad/Divine orgin of al-Qur'an and this therefore a Kafir?
Next...
"So you are saying that in order to qualify as a Kafir a person must both- "reject faith"
AND - "take signs and messengers by way of jest"
?
Suppose they are just guilty of (1). Does that mean Allah will not regard them as a Kafir and treat them gently on judgement day?"
No, I am saying that there is not an explicit contradiction between saying that someone who disbelieves in Allah, and the last day and takes his signs and messengers by way of jest will go to hell and saying that someone who believes in allah, the last day, and does good will go to heaven.
No there isn't. However, your contention is that someone can deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an and still be regarded as a paradise-bound "believer in Allah and the last day" rather than a hell-bound Kafir - which is clearly illogical nonsense which you continue to peddle below
Those who believe in God, the last day and do good will go to heaven regardless of what their professions (remember, words are cheap) concerning the Quran or the Prophet are.
What do you mean "words are cheap" when Allah says thing like
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, UTTERS Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. (16106)
Shall we conclude from this that someone who has never "accepted faith" will NOT suffer a "dreadful penalty" if they utter unbelief? Eh?
Finally you say...
"Yes it is being a "bad person" as Allah defines a "bad person"
Those who reject among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein . They are the WORST of creatures.(987)"Our difference is I believe that rejection is not mere profession and you do.
I have never argued that someone will be regarded as a "believer" in the sight of Allah on the basis of profession of belief alone. My contention is with your deluded insistence that someone who rejects the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of the Qur'an may be spared the hell fire on the basis of deeds alone.
Also, I would just like to ask you, do you believe in abrogation?
I think it is the only plausible way of explaining away certain apparent contradictions in the Qur'an.
If not, do you believe that the verse 929 implores fighting those of the people of the book only in self defense situations since other verses concerning war in the quran prohibit fighting in any other situation?
No. Because the Qur'an does not so prohibit.
- "reject faith"
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The above perception is in total conflict with what has been said in the Verse.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29.gif
You people confront war, with those who do not believe in Allah, and nor believe in the Last Day;
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29a.gif
and nor they make that unlawful what Allah and His Messenger has declared unlawful
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29b.gif
and nor they acknowledge the Prescribed Truthful Code from those who were given the Book,
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.29c.gif
until they pay the protection charges/tax compliantly while they are subdued/defeated.Please carefully see the conjunctions, one group is being defined with whom war is to be confrontedm not Jews and Christians.
Who would you say "those who were given the book" refers to?
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This is a nonsense question
How can you "interpret" "Kafirs will burn in hell" - incessantly reiterated throughout the Koran as anything but what is says except with a great deal of wishful thinking?
"My" definition of "Kafir" is the Qur'an's definition ie someone who in words or conduct explicitly or implicitly denies the divine origin of the Qur'an/prophethood of Muhammad - which are two sides of the same coin.
Are you claiming that disbelief alone does not qualify a person as a "wrongDOER" in Allah's eyes despite numerous Qur'an verses clearly stating otherwise? EG
Who DOES MORE WRONG than he who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His signs? But the WRONGDOERS never shall prosper. (621)
Now show me where in the Qur'an this verse and others like it is qualified by a statement like "except those dibelievers in Muhammad's prophethood who otherwise live a good life, give to charity, are kind to their parents, avoid alcohol etc etc"
I have no argument with this. If you commit shirk you go to hell. Where we part company is your contention that someone can DISBELIEVE in the divine origin of the Qur'an/prophethood of Muhammad and still avoid the hellfire on the basis of "good deeds" alone.
The square brackets clearly indicate that I did.
I do not "assume" it. It is the only plausible conclusion that can be drawn from a thorough study of the Qur'an and cross referencing of its verses.
"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah...." (4829)
Do you or do you not accept that someone who rejects the truth of this Qur'anic statement is a denier of the word of Allah/prophethood of Muhammad/Divine orgin of al-Qur'an and this therefore a Kafir?
No there isn't. However, your contention is that someone can deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an and still be regarded as a paradise-bound "believer in Allah and the last day" rather than a hell-bound Kafir - which is clearly illogical nonsense which you continue to peddle below
What do you mean "words are cheap" when Allah says thing like
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, UTTERS Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty. (16106)
Shall we conclude from this that someone who has never "accepted faith" will NOT suffer a "dreadful penalty" if they utter unbelief? Eh?
I have never argued that someone will be regarded as a "believer" in the sight of Allah on the basis of profession of belief alone. My contention is with your deluded insistence that someone who rejects the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of the Qur'an may be spared the hell fire on the basis of deeds alone.
I think it is the only plausible way of explaining away certain apparent contradictions in the Qur'an.
No. Because the Qur'an does not so prohibit.
Peace,
Most of your responses are the same and as such, my responses are contained in my previous posts. The only new thing you added was this verse
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, UTTERS Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty (16106)
Yusuf Ali is the only translator I found who included the word "UTTERS." Every one else says "disbelieve." In fact, the best literal translation I found is
Who disbelieved with God after his faith/believing , except who was compelled/forced, and his heart/mind (is) assured/tranquillised/secured with the faith/belief, and but who delighted/expanded his chest (innermost) to the disbelief, so on them anger from God and for them (is) a great torture.
Good debating with you.
Peace -
Who disbelieved with God after his faith/believing , except who was compelled/forced, and his heart/mind (is) assured/tranquillised/secured with the faith/belief, and but who delighted/expanded his chest (innermost) to the disbelief, so on them anger from God and for them (is) a great torture.
Just pointing out that disbelieving in God or belief in him cannot be forced/compelled in people's hearts. You may make an outwardly show of such in case of extreme circumstances like the relaxation of food prohibitions but how can you force or compel belief/unbelief in God when he is the one that guides etc?I believe DH is saying how can those who've never accepted faith not suffer a dreadful penalty if they utter unbelief if those that believe and then not believe will. I think the answer has been discussed here in various threads before (if you would search) on the nature/progression etc of such unbelief and what is actually required to earn this penalty. It's not as simple as someone saying "In your face God, I can make it on my own" or "God, you suck 'cause I have acne/my pet lizard kicked the bucket". Peace.
