How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Peace All,
Can Premarital Sex be of any different from Free Sex? Or are you referring to having sex with a person whom later you plan to marry. I think premarital sex should confine to a couple whom later will tie the knot! I think this topic should not be generalised and put in one basket. It is not only about SEX but much more to it.
Thank you.From what i've seen recently, i strongly dislike the idea of taking sex as something casual because that approach appears to me to just not lead to a strong family and lasting relationship and it makes finding a a long term relationship harder with this approach in the culture and lifesyle.
But i am having difficulties understanding whether the west's less strict approach towards sex is the cause of their high divorce rates or just their people with respect to relationships.
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Peace all
I've found more free time lately. It's our study leave and i have already done some revision so i did some more thinking on this topic and here is where i got to
I was going through the occurences of the word azwaaj in the Quran and an idea came to my mind.
Commonly in the case of men and women, the word is translated as husband or wife.
The root of the wordZay-Waw-Jiim = to couple/join/pair/unite/wed, marriage, a pair, a fellow or like, spouse.
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 432, 433
A problem with translating the word zawj becomes evident when we look at
2230 So if he divorces her again, then she will not be lawful for him until after she has married a different zawjan; if he divorces her; then there is no sin that they come back together if they think they will uphold the boundaries of God. These are the boundaries of God, He clarifies them for a people who know.
The meaning we give to a wife or a husband is what we give after marriage
But from what i see in this verse it is about marrying a zawj so a zawj does not follow from marriage.
Therefore, a zawj according is not necessarily a husband or a wife whilst i do think that it could also mean a husband or a wife. Kind of like a couple or a married couple. Similarly, a zawj or a married zawj. -
Divorce rates in the West are not that different from divorce rates in some Middle Eastern countries.
I'm not sure one sex being exclusive to marriage, but i'm pretty sure that the current approach of some countries are wrong
This source shows the stats of some countries divorces in 2002
http//www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
In general, there are more western countries with high divorce rates then east and i think it's largely down to the attitude of the country's society.
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http//www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
In general, there are more western countries with high divorce rates then east
... Fahad al-Yahya, a psychiatrist who counsels married couples, estimates at least 30 percent of Saudi first marriages end in divorce. The rate is comparable to the United States where, according to the National Center for Health Statistics, 33 percent of first marriages are disrupted either by separation or divorce.
http//findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20061210/ai_n16902969/
Saudi Arabia -- second highest divorce rate in the world
In Egypt, 40 percent of marriages end in divorce.
Egypt records sharp rise in divorce rate
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Divorce rates in the West are not that different from divorce rates in some Middle Eastern countries.
That's because in many middle eastern countries, western methods of marriage and relationship is done.
http//trueloverevolution.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/malaysia-gives-free-honeymoons-to-lower-divorce-rate/
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That's because in many middle eastern countries, western methods of marriage and relationship is done.
So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
According to the research I've read it's two things - unemployment and adultery.
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
Thank you for the info on the divorce rates in Egypt and KSA and Heba Qutb.
The thread is about sex before marriage and from what i have tried to research, it still looks that way to me. The topic of MMAs is a mystery whilst with Quran's usage of zawj (spouse) now it appears to me that they (zawj) don't result from marriages meaning that sex with a zawj is permissible and all the guidelines in the Quran would apply to it. This however would leave open what constitutes a zawj.I'm not really that focused on divorce rates. My dislike is from how sex is seen as casual and acceptable outside of a good relationship. So one night stands, prostitution are things i'm against despite lacking sufficient reason for this. So far my only reason is a weak assumption that sleeping with too many people or having sex casually can in some ways effect your abillity to fulfill the potential you may have for loving someone or being able to maintain faithfulness as perhaps you may find a greater desire to have sex with someone new or you may find your self weaker in controling a desire to remain faithful due to your lack of value for sex when you have been so casual about it.
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Marriage doesn't necessarly protect one from disease and other harms, as adultery is common throughout the world. Even if one party remains faithful, they can still can get disease from their spouse.
However, sex is intended be between two trusting individuals. This is why it's so easy to catch/spread disease when you have sex with random people. I believe our creator specifically wrote the program in this fashion. Without trust--the foundation--you have nothing. -
I'm not really that focused on divorce rates. My dislike is from how sex is seen as casual and acceptable outside of a good relationship. So one night stands, prostitution are things i'm against despite lacking sufficient reason for this.
You were the one who brought up the issue of divorce rate, suggesting a more lenient approach towards sexuality could be the reason for rising divorce rates. peace
I fully agree with you that casual, meaningless sex is not a good thing at all. But you seem to be equating sex without a marriage certificate with promiscuity, loveless sex, sleeping around etc., and I strongly disagree with that. People can have a serious relationship full of love and commitment without a piece of paper stating that they are married. And people can be married but have a loveless sex life, cheat on each other and so on.
Speaking of cheating ... this is slightly OT, but since the issue of AIDS and STDs has been brought up in this context, I'd like to point out that the assumption "sex wihtout marriage = spread of STDs" is wrong. Fact is, that in many countries, married women are at a very high risk of being infected with HIV through their husbands. So I believe we should leave this argument aside when talking about sex before marriage.
So far my only reason is a weak assumption that sleeping with too many people or having sex casually can in some ways effect your abillity to fulfill the potential you may have for loving someone or being able to maintain faithfulness as perhaps you may find a greater desire to have sex with someone new or you may find your self weaker in controling a desire to remain faithful due to your lack of value for sex when you have been so casual about it.
I understand what you are saying, but in order to find out, the best way would be to actually talk to people who have first hand experience with that, rather than relying on your personal assumptions. I know people who had casual sex in the past but live in monogamous, happy relationships now. Personally, I believe the ability to love someone and be faithful to him / her is a question of maturity and integrity, and people can evolve and change during their lifetime. So I wouldn't necessarily say that having sex before marriage "damages" a person's capability for love and commitment.
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What is the difference between a wife or a girlfriend?
A couple of witnesses and a few paper work?
I think that this argument is not looking at it from a human relationship point of view which is what sex is about. Having sex with a prostitute for example is not the same as having sex with a partner of some sort. A prostitute does not care about your behavior but a wife and girlfriend does. This is because there is an oath between the two of you and this oath is "just like I do not want you to cheat on me, then i also won't cheat on you". It does not make a difference between a wife or girfriend. Wife is a legal arrangement and perhaps a social function, but morally cheating cause harm and pain to somebody else and creates distrust. It does not matter whether she is a wife or girlfriend. Marriage does provide more assurances for a couple that something is serious. But not all marriages are such.
Thats how i look at it. Its about relationship between two people. Now of course if your wife does not mind you sleeping around and you don't mind her sleeping around then i guess you can do as you please. But you ain't going to find too many couple like that. Thats how I read the verses.
But to say that there is a profound difference between two partners who are married and two who are not is not accurate. They are legally different but even then many societies eleminated those two differences easily. Thats because the only difference is a bunch of paper work. No more or less. Its a legal issue and not a moral difference. Cheating and betrayal is cheating and betrayal. Sex is an intimate act between two people and human relationship dictates whats moral and not. Prostitution is a business transaction and in that case the issue is very different. Now if you have a girlfiend or a wife and mess with a protitute then its is also a sin. Cause how would you(a man) feel if your woman had sex with a male escort service behind your back?
As they say, cheating often requires lying and concealing. Whether its with a wife or girlfriend. A bunch of paper work is not going to make it more acceptable.
I fully agree with this.
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nowadays sex is just a tool used to glorify oneself, that's what i notice in discussions online and real life
they all talk about how many women they did, how many times they had sex, they are always on the lookout for hot women, and if you are not like them you are a total loser who deserves no respect
thats what casual sex brings
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they all talk about how many women they did, how many times they had sex, they are always on the lookout for hot women, and if you are not like them you are a total loser who deserves no respect
I don't really know anybody who thinks this way. Not saying those people don't exist, I know they do and have met some. But not in my personal circle of friends and acquaintances.
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Peace everyone,
159 We descended the reminder and we are protectors of it.
The ink and paper that the great reading (al-quran al-adhim) is printed on is not magical, or sacred, or holy. It doesn't save or guide anyone. Obviously it is the reminder that matters. The same principle is applied to a contract (mithaq) of marriage; although the paper it is printed on is irrelevant, it provides the kind of righteous framework needed to have a lasting, loving commitment.
First, let it be known that there is a very strong and very serious knot being tied through a marriage contract.
2235 Do not tie the knot of marriage (uqdah al-nikah) until...
421 They (the women) have taken from you (men) a very strong/serious contract.The contract is described as "ghalidh" (very strong; very serious), the same word used by the god to describe the contract that ALL the prophets made with the god in 337 and 381 - to deliver their messages to humankind and recognize Gabriel (gibril) when he came to all of them (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10190.0). So it's a big deal.
Two elements needed to keep the contractual knot tied tightly are (1) love (mawaddah) and (2) kindness (rahmah). You need both, working simultatenously, to make a marriage work.
3021 Of his signs is that he created for you from yourselves spouses, so that you may have comfort with them. And he made between you love and kindness.
People get divorced because they can't maintain (1) love and (2) kindness in their marriage.
Peace,
-David
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
In KSA crypto-jewish methods are present.
But as far as divorce rates go... I provided the malaysian example.
I know of Heba Kutb, and the fact of sexual laxity in marriages came in from the west during colonialism as far as I understand it.
As for you assuming that I had said "the perfect east"... did I even say that?
nope
I'll say that since the rise of sufism taking over the muslims, and then the europeans colonizing the muslims and implanting their scholars and banning women from going to the mosque and etc... since then.
Of course Heba Kutb is not a quranist and she would not have gotten her research if all the muslims of the past were quranists.
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Why do Egyptians get divorced?
Western concept
"The same mother will also tell her daughter that it's the sole responsibility of the woman to keep the household running as long as the man is financially capable."
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlwgxPEoPpY -- Prophetic concept.
Well you could take the above as western or eastern but ultimately it's unislamic.
The rest of the article you quote sounds like the Egyptians (and alot of other people) are stuck in some sort of 50s/60s shift.
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God has a response to everything, do you think that in the quran that when it is said that we will be punished for exceeding the limits in this world (and the hereafter) that it is in jest?
Consider why we have an AIDS epidemic, why STDs exist, the lack of harmony in societies where there are broken family structures. A child is a combination of the mother and father with some differences, it is only through knowing the mother and father that a child can really know itself properly and its position in the global landscape.
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Consider why we have an AIDS epidemic
The lethal impact of AIDS on many women and girls must be recognized as a form of mass femicide that is devastating women throughout the world. These femicides are occurring as a result of the overlap of four gender-related problems AIDS, male sexism and domination, genital mutilation, and rape. The following paragraph illuminates the role of male sexism and domination in causing the rapid spread of AIDS in the Caribbean.
According to Jeannie Relly, the Ministry of Health in Trinidad and Tobago reported that seven out of eight people infected with HIV/AIDS between the ages of 10 and 19 are female (February 2000, p. A15). The Jamaican Health Minister attributed the spread of AIDS to "the irresponsible sexual behavior of our men" (p. A15). Peggy McEvoy, AIDS policy team leader for a Caribbean program, explained that "married women face high risks because their partners are unfaithful and will not use condoms" (Relly, 2000, p. A15). If the women insisted that their husbands use condoms, "Their husbands would kick them out," McEvoy explained (Relly, 2000, p. A15). "Many women are also unaware that their husbands are having extramarital affairs," McEvoy added.
Because the causes of women's vulnerability to AIDS in the Caribbean are common in most parts of the world, I consider the global spread of AIDS to be chiefly due to sexist male behavior. Although some unknown percentage of women who die of AIDS are not necessarily victims of femicide (those who became infected by dirty needles, for example), many more are.
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According to another source, two-thirds of the people in the world who are infected with HIV/AIDS live in Africa (Shaw, 1999). The highest rates of infection in the world are currently found in seven Southern African nations, including South Africa where "At least one-fifth of the population is infected" (the UNAIDS report , cited by Perlman, June 2000, p. A6; Russell specifies 20% of adults as infected). Hence, the primary focus of this analysis will be on the particularly devastating impact of AIDS in Africa.
In sub-Saharan Africa, new figures show that 55% of all infected adults are women" (Schoofs, 1999, p. 6. And according to data compiled at UNAids "For every 10 African men with the disease there are 12 infected women" (Reuter, 1999, p. 4).
The causal relationship between male sexism and domination, genital mutilation, rape and the AIDS epidemic in Africa will now be addressed in this order.
Male Sexism and Domination and AIDS
Heterosexual males' sexist and misogynist beliefs and behavior toward females in patriarchal societies is a major cause of the spread of AIDS, and hence of increasing rates of femicide. The passage on the spread of AIDS in the Caribbean (above) gave examples of common manifestation of male sexism and male domination that can have lethal consequences for females when their male partners have HIV/AIDS
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Males who refuse to wear condoms with their female partners despite engaging in sexual relations with others (male and/or female);
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Males who engage in sex with others (male and/or female) but who fail to divulge their non-monogamous behavior to their female sex partners. This deprives these women of the opportunity to protect themselves from contracting HIV, to protect any children they may have from the same fate, and to save their own lives by refusing to engage in sexual relations with their partners.
Other examples include
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Husbands who are entitled by patriarchal law or custom to expect, demand, and/or force their wives to engage in sex with them, and who act on this conjugal right.
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Men who are ignorant of their HIV-positive condition and who do not wear condoms or refuse to wear them.
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Men who have sex with prostituted women. These women are at very high risk of having HIV/AIDS, especially if they fail to wear condoms. Many women -- including prostituted women -- do not know the importance of wearing condoms for protection and/or they accommodate their customers who may dislike or refuse to wear them. Some men are also ignorant of their importance whereas others consider it less satisfying and put their own enjoyment above women's preference and/or safety.
The women and girls who contract HIV/AIDS from their male partners because of their sexist attitudes and behavior, and/or their superior power and dominating status, are -- when they die -- victims of femicide.
Village Voice journalist Mark Schoofs (1999), who won the Pulitzer Prize in 1999 for his series of articles on AIDS in Africa, devoted one article to "Death and the Second Sex." This article on femicide provides devastating evidence of male domination in Southern Africa, and how this relates to AIDS. For example, Schoofs (1999) notes that "African women subordinate their sexual safety to men's pleasure" (p. 67). "Throughout southern Africa, where the AIDS epidemic is worse than anywhere in the world," many African women practice "dry sex" (Schoofs, 1999, p. 67) Some women dry out their vaginas with soil mixed with baboon urine, others use "detergents, salt, cotton, or shredded newspaper" (p. 67). Schoofs (1999) describes the way in which Sipewe Mhakeni dried out her vagina
Mhakeni used herbs from the Mugugudhu tree. After grinding the stem and leaf, she would mix just a pinch of the sand- colored powder with water, wrap it in a bit of nylon stocking, and insert it into her vagina for 10 to 15 minutes. The herbs swell the soft tissues of the vagina, make it hot, and dry it out. That made sex "very painful," says Mhakeni. But, she adds, "Our African husbands enjoy sex with a dry vagina. (p. 67)
Other women also reported that having dry sex was painful. Furthermore, "research shows that dry sex causes vaginal lacerations and suppresses the vagina's natural bacteria, both of which increase the likelihood of HIV infection. And some AIDS workers believe the extra friction makes condoms tear more easily" (Schoofs, 1999, p. 67).
Schoofs noted that Southern African girls "are socialized to yield sexual decision-making to men" (p. 67). Prisca Mhlolo, who was in charge of counseling at an organization for HIV-positive Zimbabweans, noted that women are not even allowed to say, "Can we have sex?" so it's even more difficult to bring up the subject of condoms. For example, Mhlolo's husband, who had infected her with AIDS, objected to her suggesting that he wear a condom when he developed open herpes sores on his penis, accusing her of having found a boyfriend.
Because women in southern Africa "are unable to negotiate sex," they have to "risk infection to please the man," Schoofs observed. He quotes Mhlolo as commenting that this situation "is part of our culture ... and our culture is part of why HIV is spreading" (p. 6. Schoofs maintains that African men "retain the mindset of polygamy" which was practiced in their traditional cultures. Now, instead of men practicing polygamy in those African nations where it is illegal, they "have many partners through commercial sex or 'sugar daddy' relationships that lack the social cohesion of traditional marriages" (p. 6.
Carael's U.N. study (September 1999) found that HIV "spread more quickly in places where girls became sexually active at an earlier age" (Shaw, 1999). According to a UNAids report, "older men, who often coerce girls into sex or buy their favours with sugar-daddy gifts, are the main source of HIV for the teenage girls" (Reuter, 1999, p. 4). For their part, some "young girls think the older men can provide for them," according to Anne Buve of the Institute of Tropical Medicine in Antwerp, Belgium (Shaw, 1999). Their relationships with older men, whether forced, coerced or bought, increases their vulnerability to contracting HIV. As Peter Piot, executive director of the Joint U.N. Program on HIV/AIDS, points out, "Gender inequality -- including women's economic dependence on men -- is a driving force of the AIDS epidemic" (Associated Press, 2000, p. A6).
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Hence, the first order of business requires educating people about the role of sexism and male domination in the spread of AIDS, and eradicating these manifestations of patriarchy. It is not enough to conduct educational campaigns that focus only on the need to avoid risky behavior, such as the failure to use a condom, the need to find out a potential sex partner's sexual history, the danger of having sex with many different partners, and the particularly high risk nature of unprotected anal sex as compared with oral or penile/vaginal sex.
http//www.dianarussell.com/aids.html
Also
Cultural Approach to HIV/AIDS Harm Reduction in Muslim Countries
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