A system that is better then what the koran recommends?
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Nice David_k. Well said indeed! bravo
you braught up a Good point about *Who owns the technology and *Spiritual/non-material Needs
I Deffinatly think that at least 99% of all crimes are due to Economic-Constriction/oppression.
In fact that is basically what the Quran Actually Says!
The Devil Threatens you with Poverty, and enjoyns you to act niggardly.
meaning, He (and his Oppressor Regime) Construct Systems in which are geared to make you indigent..which will then put you in situations where you are tempted to act niggardly (better word= unrightious) for Survival.Which is why I feel Islam is great in this aspect because it
A) Encourages Muslims to "Struggle hard with their Wealth" and "Be Patient"
B)Demands that they provide "OBLIGATORY" Solidarity whether in Revolutionary Force, Zakat (Charity), or in small scale greetings and good manners.
C) Provides reasons why this Soldarity is not only important, but needed...as well as provides incentives (Recompense 100 fold i think) for doing these deeds.
(i.e. The Good is NOT equal to the bad, and the Good will be doubled #-fold either in this life and/or the afterlife).The Problem I see with Most Athiests such as the Zeitigest Movment/Venus/etc... is that There is the common belief that Morals are nothing but human innovations. This can become problematic. This can backfire severly. I think it it harder to be a passionate rightious person as an Athiest (and thats my own personal experiences/biases but i think its true). With no religous foundation (which teaches the concept of "Fitrah" or Natural-Islam) I think the people are in a constant battle with themselves and their Ego's or the many ego's which they Possess...(and Spirituality is the only way to rid of these egos.)
which brings up your point of lack of Spirituality.
I think the Fiat Currency System is great and convienient. (as long as its gold backed.) I havent heard anything in the Quran speaking against it and feel if looked at and followed properly it can solve alot of problems...(haha I KNOW abdun nur is going to debate this part)
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Te point here is to determine what the Quranic system is. As far as I have understood it, thre is noQuranic system. There are certain conditions that any system must meet to satisfy Quranic requirementes, but there is no Quranic system, and I think that is perfectly right, because there may be a variety of systems that can or cannot work, and no system is perfect, meaning all are liably to imperfection, degeneration and destruction, because they are material and human. Perfection and eternal durability are not of this world. For this world we ha yihad, permanente effort to keep always the balance or to attain it and keep it and for that we can move in any direction that is within the limits set by the Qur'an.
Salaam
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Do you know first what Qur'an recommands ? !
Anyways , you're comparing between the words of God by a man's words ..let me remind you that the man is creature and the God is the creator ..so no chance to compare nope.
I think there is another aim for this thread other than what someone recommands .
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Salaam, forgive me if I'm being stupid but how can an 'ideal society' exist with humans having free-will?
To me an 'ideal society' is a perfect society & no human can ever be perfect.
Those like myself with a strong belief in Islam & trying to live our lives according to The Qur'an will never be open to any other way of life.
So I think trying to lure a Muslim to an alternative non-Qur'anic lifestyles is completely pointless.
That's just my opinion!
Peace. -
Peace David
Wouldn?t there need to be some sort of governance? So isn?t politics kinda inevitable?
Technology has it?s good and bad it?s not necessarily more pollution? I guess it depends on the type of technology. Though with technology natural resources are used maybe even abused. But I agree we don?t need a ?techno-mythological society? but we can and we are benefiting from technology.
Peace ra786
you said "The Problem I see with Most Athiests such as the Zeitigest Movment/Venus/etc... is that There is the common belief that Morals are nothing but human innovations. This can become problematic."
you know let's assume morals are nothing but human innovations, what's wrong with that? people live in a society to live in harmony we need to be just right? and be on agreeable terms? so how do we agree on it? isn't technology a human innovation why is that ok but other things aren't? if there is no morals does that mean we live by our own rules? dunno sounds too open to many things.. which i doubt would be their direction or objective.
Peace Neaality,
Ideal doesn't necessarily have to be perfect. at least we all know perfection is sort for but never exactly attained so ideal would more like be "just" not necessarily "perfect".. actually maybe the system can be "perfect" but it doesn't mean people act/abide the perfect system.
and muslims who abide by the Quran wouldn't be sorting a life outside it, true that being said it doesn't mean everything that doesnt have an islamic label isn't "ok".
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Peace David
Wouldn?t there need to be some sort of governance? So isn?t politics kinda inevitable?
Peace Sarah
I forgot this thread. I hope i am not answering to late.
Yes, we need governance, but in an ideal society, we do not need politicians. Many youths are more ethical and care more about human rights and could have ruled our countries better than our current leaders. Most politicians don't care about what is best for the people, they only care about what is best for their self-interest. They waste money on weapons and military instead of using the money to improve our countries and our world. So in a Quranic System i believe that we would not need any politician, because then all people could have participated, voiced their opinions and decided. The only reason we have politicians is because people are conditioned to believe that politicians can rule the country better than the people. In the past kings and priests ruled our society, now the scientists and politicians are deciding how we should live and what we should do. The kings and priests have been replaced by scientists and politicans.
Anyway, let's get back to reality, to our man-made systems. Since we do not live in a ideal society (Quranic system/Natural system), democracy is the best of the current man-made systems we have. But not the typical democratic systems. Personally, i think that Instead of Indirect democracy (most modern democratic countries like Uk, USA, Canada have a system were the people elect representatives to make decisions for them), we should have a direct democracy (like the swiss system were the people decide themselves). http//www.switzerland.com/en.cfm/home/government/offer-Switzerland-Government-200065.html
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Peace David no problem
The question is, if we don't need politicians what is the platform for rules? or governing them?
The Swiss system let the people decide the rules rather than voting for a 3rd party to represent them which is better, i agree. though who presents the proposed laws? isn't it politicians in the end?
With power comes great responsibility.. many people would be tested in position of power don't you think? such as following self-interests, promoting their campaign even if it goes against their values/morals etc. it's kinda inevitable and only the noble/strong would be just.. at least voters in a Swiss system for example could well vote for or against unethical laws.
People are conditioned in a certain way however, anyone can start a political party but getting numbers is the issue.
I think people are conditioned especially in western societies "we live in a democracy we get all our rights by voting" so most will think why change the system, i think most wouldn't even ponder about changing it.
I wonder if any country would follow in Swiss footsteps.
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The problem with voting, at least in America, is that there are too many sub-agencies for people to realistically have a say, be represented, in what goes on at the top. Most people don't even have the time to vote that often, much less consider and weigh such options correctly.
Certain undesirable types are systematically rounded up and restricted of their rights, based on petty offenses and lack of prudence in the courtroom. Too much code going on in the mainframe.
Then, of course, the electoral college system of voting is obviously something which can be abused in decisive moments during elections. The past decade holds all the information we need to regroup our collective intelligence and put our focus towards something a little more ..."representative" of "humanity" ....regardless of what we call it or how we go about it, as individuals.
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This ...is what the Quran recommends.
Peace. -
I've been looking into Jacque Fresco's idea on creating an ideal society (Jacque Fresco's a social engineer, industrial designer, author, lecturer, futurist, inventor, and the creator of The Venus Project). And his ideas IMO appear to be far more superior then what the koran is recommending.
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#
http//www.scribd.com/doc/7902573/Designing-the-Future-The-Venus-Project
There are parts of what he says that I don't agree with, but overall i think he is spot on.
what do you guys think?
peace.Peace,
Respectfully.I believe that if The Quran was The Law of the country, that such a country would be better, if not even The Best.
But if we could install in the country just 2215, 219 and 6141, God willing, the humans would never know recession, poverty and begging.God knows best.
God bless you all.
Peace. -
Peace Sarah
The question is, if we don't need politicians what is the platform for rules? or governing them?
I imagine everyone learn basic politics and participate in politics (whether they like it or not), and then all people govern the rules. But a fully detailed and complete answer to this question would take a lot of time to write. If you are interested in learning more about natural politics, i think that the quran has all the answers we need. The quran is complete, remember?
The Swiss system let the people decide the rules rather than voting for a 3rd party to represent them which is better, i agree. though who presents the proposed laws? isn't it politicians in the end?
Good question. It is Probably the politicians, but i am not sure.
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My Idea is simple
If I have bought a new recorder,I must read the instructions carefully.
These instruction are more trustable than any others.Why?
Because Those came from the ones who made the recorder.They know every thing about it.
Allah made us. and he knows what is good for us. That's ittrue
end of story
people are idiots these days looking for everything in an ideael form.....not realizing the user manual is already present in front of them
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I've been looking into Jacque Fresco's idea on creating an ideal society (Jacque Fresco's a social engineer, industrial designer, author, lecturer, futurist, inventor, and the creator of The Venus Project). And his ideas IMO appear to be far more superior then what the koran is recommending.
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#
http//www.scribd.com/doc/7902573/Designing-the-Future-The-Venus-Project
There are parts of what he says that I don't agree with, but overall i think he is spot on.
what do you guys think?
peace.
Thank you very much for the link. Jacque Fresco is and exceptional man.