Some questions to which Quran only followers can't answr, basically they can't !
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Dear OPF & Co
Now that I'm back, let's have a look at your super duper sect saving answer (you know, like a knight in shining armour coming to the rescue of a damsel in distress).
Your answer in a nutshell is that the intelligent minority elite using a grand evil plan have misled the majority (us) because we are stupid. You have given some 'cock and bull' story and reasons for your analogy and are now patting yourself on the back with a big smile.
Ok, let's admit for one second that we (the majority of the billion plus muslims) are the stupids. Absolutely no problem.
Now, taking your reasoning and logic into account, how stupid down the stupidity chain do you guys rank considering you guys are not in a position of power, you have no eliteness in your circles, you have no authority in the Islamic world, you have minimal understanding of the Arabic language and Quran, you have barely 100 years of experience, your membership/adherants barely touch God knows how much %, maybe 1% if that, you guys are ashamed of what you believe and follow and always hide behind disguises because you don't want to upset the balance?
If we are to take the minority over majority argument which you tried to twist in your favour, then the only thing you have in common with the 'evil elite', is the term 'minority'. Nothing else. You have absolutely nothing else in common with your analogy. We are the major stupids and you are the minor stupids, but we have everything over you and are in power with the duty to uphold the House of God. This must mean that no word exists to define your lack of intellect. You guys are at the bottom of the barrel begging to get your warped whispers heard. This is the reality.
The answer you have given is nothing short of something donkey from shrek would have blurted out. Ludicrous.
Your sect unfortunately is based purely on individual conjecture with absolutely no evidence at all to back up your claims.
We are using the Quran just like you are but we still have over 1300 years and a billion plus members over you. Why?
If you guys are right and we are wrong, why are more people in the world reverting to Islam and have been since your inception over the last 100 years and choosing the traditional way rather than your newly invented deviant way? It's not as though someone is hypnotising, forcing, bribing, conning or threatening them to choose our way over your way is it now? For people like you to make sweeping statements and class every Muslim over the last 1400 years as stupid because they are the majority and they don't follow your newly invented way confirms exactly what you guys stand for. Deviancy!
And as far as the why not join the Christain sects because they are the majority argument is concerned. What part of the english language do you guys not understand? The Christians do not use the Quran as their guide! We do. You cannot compare apples and oranges and say both are the same. We use Quran and you use Quran but we are still the majority.
Now take that to the bank and cash it!
PeacePeace be upon you,
with all due Respect.Are you serious?
is this a joke? Where are the cameras? Okay, i get it, joke's on me, i can handle it, unlike Beyonce....Dude, you gotta get serious because this post of yours tells me you're not.
I would like you to read these verses in Arabic, then ponder ove rthe word hadeeth7185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrative after this one will they believe?
316 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.
3923 God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is similar with two paths. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.
456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative after God and His revelations do they believe?
5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.
6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.
7750 So in what narrative, after it, will they believe?I would also like you to read this in any language you wish and ponder over it, deal?
6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?Now, if i may ask sunnis all over the world"What is wrong with you, how do you judge?"
They would probably answer me"Alen, nothing is wrong with us, and we judge according to Bukhary and Muslim and those others."
If i asked them"Guys, do you have a book which you study?"
The sunnis would most likely say"Yes, from Bukhary and Muslim and they are authentic because it says right here on the cover of the book, see?"
I would also like to ask sunnis"In it, you can find what you wish?"
Sunnis reply"DUH!"May God guide us all.
Maybe the sunnis have not noticed but it says sahih on those other books and it doesn't say sahih on the cover of The Quran. Have you ever asked yourselves this?
And please let's not play with numbers, majority and minority and which group is right or wrong, i'm already fighting with number 19.Peace.
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Salam to all,
Here are some questions from me (a person who is trying to follow Quran alone but it's very difficult due to various interpretations of the basic ritualistic practices - not only rituals but also some general questions about the way of life of a muslim based upon Quran only)
The different tendencies I discovered throughout my trip inside the Quran alone followers group
-There are those who support 2 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 3 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 4 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 5 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who even don't know how many rakaats (units) there are in a Salat (the physical act)
-There are those who pretend that one can do as many rakaat (units) as wanted there is no limit (only time limit)
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is only an event of gathering
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is a pagan form of ritual
-There are those who pretend that Sol-laa (Salat), Siyam, Hajj, Zakat are not what they shoud be because of some linguistics distorsions (For example, read Aidid Safar's Thesis)
-There are those who believe in a huge conspiracy from Persians or from Pagan Arabs to distord original Islam (Shabbir Ahmad, Aidid Safar and their likes)The above list is not exhaustive, we can add other odd sorts of Quran alone followers.
I sincerelly think that "Follow Quran Alone" is another sect like those we can encounter in Islam that came into existence because of the lack of rational reasoning in muslim cercles all around the world, because of the incompatibality between traditionnal Islam and secular world, shortly it's only a response to a precise situation of the chaotic muslim world who has some difficulty to emerge in this new century due to its dependency of religious scholars and their restricted thoughts based on book's about prohetic traditions. In other words, the existence of this sect can be understandable by the absence of any major critical study of the "Authentic Books of Traditions" (ie. 18th-19th centuries muslim scholars like Rashid Rida, Muhamad Abduh). This problem occures more in a restrictive Sunni milieu than a Shiite one because actually the Shiite scholarly environment give more oppotunities to critic their own doctrines on the basis of "continuous ijtihad" in the field of islamic law, islamic history etc.
My first multiple-question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the reign of Umar Abd al-Aziz during which the first ahadiths book was compiled by Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri according to Ibn Hajar, what type of Islam, the muslim were following ? There were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray ? What amount of zakat did they give ? How did they do Hajj ? How did they do Fast ?
I will ask other questions later.
Peace jawad_mugniya,
Your position is well taken. Good question. Following are my thoughts
835 - Their Contact Prayers (Salat) at the shrine (Ka`bah) were no more than a mockery and a means of repelling the people (by crowding them out). Therefore, suffer the retribution for your disbelief.
The Contact Prayer MUST be done right.
1959 - After them, He substituted generations who lost the Contact Prayers (Salat), and pursued their lusts. They will suffer the consequences.
Lost Contact Prayer MUST have been restored, but HOW.
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah is the teacher. He taught (inspired) Contact Prayer to certain people. One of them is Prophet Muhammad who was a gentile Prophet. He in turn taught us the Contact Prayer.
4101 - When you travel, during war, you commit no error by shortening your Contact Prayers (Salat), if you fear that the disbelievers may attack you. Surely, the disbelievers are your ardent enemies.
Shorten clearly imply that there is a complete (detailed) structure to Contact Prayer (simple logical deduction)
Then, the MOTHER question is How do we observe Contact Prayer?
And the ANSWER IS The way Prophet Muhammad did.
Prophet Muhammad?s way of salat is not captured in hadith (bukhari,..). Therefore, the solution is NOT the hadith.
It is a physical act, started by Prophet Abraham, and preserved by allah.
In my opinion, whenever it is lost, Allah restores it via inspiration. For example, R. Khalifa eliminated the aamin and recitation of second sura. His approach is very simple and reasonable and consistent with the Quran i.e. bring us the evidence of corruption in the present way of salat.
The approach advocated by some people, here at Free-Minds, is WRONG. Because they themselves has shown their approach begets 2, 3, ? salat per day. And that contradicts Quranic verses identified above and more.
Additional evidence of inspiration in the Quran
2327 - We then inspired him "Make the watercraft under our watchful eyes, and in accordance with our inspiration. When our command comes, and the atmosphere boils up, put on it a pair of every kind (of your domesticated animals), and your family, except those condemned to be doomed. Do not speak to Me on behalf of those who transgressed; they will be drowned.
287 - We inspired Moses' mother "Nurse him, and when you fear for his life, throw him into the river without fear or grief. We will return him to you, and will make him one of the messengers."
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Credentials my friends credentials. Let's summarise before we wrap up. No doubt we'll have the usual suspects (all 10 or so of them on this Forum) crying foul, but hey, someones got to break the bad news to you deviants and burst your bubble
US
Ours are openly available for the whole world to see. We have the Quran, the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH, over 1400 years of experience and over 1 billion people all over the world practicing the Deen in the same manner accepting the basic fundamentals of Islam.YOU
Nothing openly available for the world to see as it's all practiced behind closed doors (by practice I mean the web postings because apart from that, you don't believe in anything else of Islamic rites, rituals, duties, laws and legislation). The Quran (without understanding it making it up as you go along thus totally disregarding it without even realizing it), the Sunnah of yourselves individually doing what you want whenever you want, plus the Sunnah of your leaders Taha Hussein, Abdullah Chakralawi, Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz, and Zia Gogelup, over 100 years of experience and over 1 thousand people practicing the deen in a totally different and isolated manner not accepting any basics or fundamentals of Islam.Like I said before, until such time you become the majority with authority, keep dreaming with your warped interpretations and man made desires.
I think I'll take a hiatus from you guys and leave you to using a pen with no ink thus producing a book with blank pages claiming to be authors, all done whilst wandering in a dark room!
You guys of the PM sect have nothing, see nothing, but claim everything.
Peace
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All that time writing up zero substance when they could've defended their assertions.
Zuloo, you're just here to mouth off. "Like I said before" who the heck cares, unless you're here to put up (discuss logically), shut up and go away.
Consider this a warning.
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Dear Savage_carrot
With all due respect, you can take your Forum and your warning and stick it where the sun never shines.
It was only a matter of time before the warning followed by ban bullsh_t comes up from you guys.
You dudes do it all the time to anyone who disagrees with your ideaology and proves you wrong time and time again. Why am I not surprised in the slightest?
You need the job as a Forum moderator, not me. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
You can only give warnings to people who are answerable to you. Not to people who are way above you in every manner.
Peace.
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Credentials my friends credentials. Let's summarise before we wrap up. No doubt we'll have the usual suspects (all 10 or so of them on this Forum) crying foul, but hey, someones got to break the bad news to you deviants and burst your bubble
US
Ours are openly available for the whole world to see. We have the Quran, the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH, over 1400 years of experience and over 1 billion people all over the world practicing the Deen in the same manner accepting the basic fundamentals of Islam.
In the same manner? I dont think so! So you must be able to tell us how many abrogated verses then?YOU
Nothing openly available for the world to see as it's all practiced behind closed doors (by practice I mean the web postings because apart from that, you don't believe in anything else of Islamic rites, rituals, duties, laws and legislation). The Quran (without understanding it making it up as you go along thus totally disregarding it without even realizing it), the Sunnah of yourselves individually doing what you want whenever you want, plus the Sunnah of your leaders Taha Hussein, Abdullah Chakralawi, Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz, and Zia Gogelup, over 100 years of experience and over 1 thousand people practicing the deen in a totally different and isolated manner not accepting any basics or fundamentals of Islam.
never heard of any of those 'leaders' so they are not my leaders, my leader is Allah and I follow the sunnah of Allah as mentioned in Quran. 1777, 3362, 3543Like I said before, until such time you become the majority with authority, keep dreaming with your warped interpretations and man made desires.
6116I think I'll take a hiatus from you guys and leave you to using a pen with no ink thus producing a book with blank pages claiming to be authors, all done whilst wandering in a dark room!
You guys of the PM sect have nothing, see nothing, but claim everything.
Peace
035.040
YUSUFALI Say "Have ye seen (these) 'Partners' of yours whom ye call upon besides Allah? Show Me what it is they have created in the (wide) earth. Or have they a share in the heavens? Or have We given them a Book from which they (can derive) clear (evidence)?- Nay, the wrong-doers promise each other nothing but delusions. -
Dear Savage_carrot
With all due respect, you can take your Forum and your warning and stick it where the sun never shines.
It was only a matter of time before the warning followed by ban bullsh_t comes up from you guys.
You dudes do it all the time to anyone who disagrees with your ideaology and proves you wrong time and time again. Why am I not surprised in the slightest?
You need the job as a Forum moderator, not me. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
You can only give warnings to people who are answerable to you. Not to people who are way above you in every manner.
Peace.
You have not proved anyone wrong though have you? you cannot even answer how many abrogated verses there are so how the hell do you follow a book you claim is the first source of Islam when you have NO IDEA what verses you are or are not supposed to follow? You follow another book, not the book of Allah.
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Dear Zuloo12,
No we don't do it all the time, only the ones with idiotic and illogical posts here with an agenda which is always evident given enough time. Posters such as yourself.
The term "superiority complex", in everyday usage, refers to an overly high opinion of oneself; in psychology, it refers to the unrealistic and exaggerated belief that one is better than others. This is juxtaposed to "inferiority complex" sufferers in whom this develops as a way to compensate for unconscious feelings of low self-esteem or inadequacy.
I suggest platform shoes or a new hairpiece.
Now run along.
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Dear Savage_carrot
With all due respect, you can take your Forum and your warning and stick it where the sun never shines.
It was only a matter of time before the warning followed by ban bullsh_t comes up from you guys.
You dudes do it all the time to anyone who disagrees with your ideaology and proves you wrong time and time again. Why am I not surprised in the slightest?
You need the job as a Forum moderator, not me. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
You can only give warnings to people who are answerable to you. Not to people who are way above you in every manner.
Peace.
Zulu, why are you afraid to lay down the goods and let us examine them? Maybe you?re content living with mere slogans of ?1300 years of impeccable scholarship with every Muslim arrived at on his own? (sic) but it?s best suited to sunniforums.com where the participants will ?masha Allah? you at every delusion.
Here, we critically analyse everything. Savage Carrot is rightly reminding of you of this. You said
Ours are openly available for the whole world to see. We have the Quran, the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH, over 1400 years of experience and over 1 billion people all over the world practicing the Deen in the same manner accepting the basic fundamentals of Islam.
Lets begin now and discuss this openly available information. Ayisha has asked you about abrogation. Now show some integrity and answer her.
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Zulu, why are you afraid to lay down the goods and let us examine them?
Exactly.What I don't understand are the phrases used out of context on this thread coming from their position of zero substance/logical discussion time and time again.
1)Put up or shut up...didn't do either themselves but acted like it was all part of the plan somehow.
2)Don't talk the talk unless you walk the walk...didn't do either themselves and thankfully was out of usage after just one airing.
3)If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen...subjected to their hot air, I suppose this makes slightly more sense but they've now dashed out of the kitchen spilling their credibility behind. To be fair though, it was spilled quite some pages ago.Not to people who are way above you in every manner.
Hanging from the trees, yeah. -
It's like talking to donkeys with you lot.
Our proof is right in front of you!
1400 plus years and over 1 billion members. How the hell can you refute this evidence?
No one has dared or even been stupid enough to question Islam for over 1300 years from within because they understood the Quran and it's message perfectly and have always been on the right track.
It's you guys who haven't got a clue are a newly created sect and use the Quran in vain trying to push forward your warped agendas.
You give each other high fives and pats on the back whilst slating the whole Islamic way of life and then claim to be a part of Islam. This is known as hypocrisy if you didn't know. If you guys stopped the back patting of each other what else would you have left? F-all.
Peace
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I ask you guys, is the post above not proof enough that zuloo, champion of arboreal dwelling, cannot bring it?
Never answer anything just keep tooting their own busted horn over and over. Pathetic.
Bring it zuloo, where is the consensus? Why is quantity suggestive of quality, what do numbers have to do with what's right? What is the number of abrogated verses?
Answers to all of them doing the zuloo there have been no problems during 1400 years, quality is whichever group is bigger in number, bigger the number the more right they are...and duh, ask my leaders I'm just a follower. I'll still come here and taunt you losers however, that's all I can do.
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US
Ours are openly available for the whole world to see. We have the Quran, the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH, over 1400 years of experience and over 1 billion people all over the world practicing the Deen in the same manner accepting the basic fundamentals of Islam.Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.I saw this and just had to answer, God willing.
Christians might write the same as you
Christians today;
Ours are openly available for the whole world to see. We have the Bible, the man on the cross who takes all our sins, over 2,000 years of experience and over 2 billion people all over the world not-practicing the Deen but just looking like good clones hoping that some man 2,000 years ago will take it all the bad stuff we do and help us get into a place which isn't even his.Do you see my point, bro?
May God guide you.
Peace. -
Salam to all,
Here are some questions from me (a person who is trying to follow Quran alone but it's very difficult due to various interpretations of the basic ritualistic practices - not only rituals but also some general questions about the way of life of a muslim based upon Quran only)
The different tendencies I discovered throughout my trip inside the Quran alone followers group
-There are those who support 2 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 3 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 4 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who support 5 types of Salat in the Quran (the physical act)
-There are those who even don't know how many rakaats (units) there are in a Salat (the physical act)
-There are those who pretend that one can do as many rakaat (units) as wanted there is no limit (only time limit)
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is only an event of gathering
-There are those who pretend that Hajj is a pagan form of ritual
-There are those who pretend that Sol-laa (Salat), Siyam, Hajj, Zakat are not what they shoud be because of some linguistics distorsions (For example, read Aidid Safar's Thesis)
-There are those who believe in a huge conspiracy from Persians or from Pagan Arabs to distord original Islam (Shabbir Ahmad, Aidid Safar and their likes)The above list is not exhaustive, we can add other odd sorts of Quran alone followers.
I sincerelly think that "Follow Quran Alone" is another sect like those we can encounter in Islam that came into existence because of the lack of rational reasoning in muslim cercles all around the world, because of the incompatibality between traditionnal Islam and secular world, shortly it's only a response to a precise situation of the chaotic muslim world who has some difficulty to emerge in this new century due to its dependency of religious scholars and their restricted thoughts based on book's about prohetic traditions. In other words, the existence of this sect can be understandable by the absence of any major critical study of the "Authentic Books of Traditions" (ie. 18th-19th centuries muslim scholars like Rashid Rida, Muhamad Abduh). This problem occures more in a restrictive Sunni milieu than a Shiite one because actually the Shiite scholarly environment give more oppotunities to critic their own doctrines on the basis of "continuous ijtihad" in the field of islamic law, islamic history etc.
My first multiple-question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the reign of Umar Abd al-Aziz during which the first ahadiths book was compiled by Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri according to Ibn Hajar, what type of Islam, the muslim were following ? There were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray ? What amount of zakat did they give ? How did they do Hajj ? How did they do Fast ?
I will ask other questions later.
The real question is
Why are those issue so important for you? Moses never did Haj. Abraham did zakat his own way. Prophets prayed in their own way. They fasted in their own way with some daily and others 40 days and some others in other ways. Do we expect all people to eat the same way and excersice the same way. Look, if its keeping you healthy and improving your stamina why should it matter whether you cycle or jog or play basket ball?
Plus these type of question comes from people who came from a very ritualistic and legalistic background as most Muslims do.
2.177. It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing
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It's like talking to donkeys with you lot.
Our proof is right in front of you!
Only proof I see is that WE are talking to a donkey who cannot SEE how many times the same question has been asked that he CLAIMS he follows but still cannot answer, just bray bray is all you seem to do! What is the matter with you? If you have the answers then answer it, if you dont then SAY SO instead of all this childish rubbish. I misunderstood you to be a grown man.1400 plus years and over 1 billion members. How the hell can you refute this evidence?
evidence of WHAT? evidence that even after all this time you still dont KNOW how many abrogated verses between the 1.5+ billion of you? 1400 years and you still have not found that small detail out?I have lost count how many times the verses FROM QURAN - the Book YOU claim is the first source to YOU as a Muslim - showing you that the majority dont know Jack have been posted but you seem to be BLIND to those, are THEY abrogated?
No one has dared or even been stupid enough to question Islam for over 1300 years from within because they understood the Quran and it's message perfectly and have always been on the right track.
But they DONT understand it do they? thats why you have hadith and bukhari and ibn Kathir to EXPLAIN it for you, because you DONT understand it. Quran TELLS you to question but you say no one is stupid enough to follow God's advice?It's you guys who haven't got a clue are a newly created sect and use the Quran in vain trying to push forward your warped agendas.
warped agendas are all your doing, yours and Bukhari and others that claim to follow Quran but dont even understand it without volumes of other books from other sources. You have no clue, you dont even KNOW how many abrogated verses you follow. You should really check that out as possibly 90% of what you think you follow you shouldnt as it was abrogated, but you dont even CARE as your excuse will be pointing fingers at someone else on The Day, but that will NOT be accepted as you have been shown the TRUTH yet you DENY it.You give each other high fives and pats on the back whilst slating the whole Islamic way of life and then claim to be a part of Islam. This is known as hypocrisy if you didn't know. If you guys stopped the back patting of each other what else would you have left? F-all.
Peace
Dont judge others by your own standards. The superiority claims and back patting have all been you whilst being blind to questions and proofs you have no ground to stand on. You have proven your worth, it is lacking.
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Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.Savage_carrot, zulu12 and all others, i respect you all, please let's remember The Quran, 4911, let's use our logic and try to solve this issue without anger or hate, we need to work together to get united, God willing.
We disagree, i know, which is not the reason we should also hate or get angry.
Let's ask each other questions that we feel the need to ask and let's see what answers the other gives and let's ask the audience what they feel makes more sense, God willing.May God help us all.
Peace.