Non-muslims in Jannah?

DH

IF you go by my definition of disbelief being action based,

IE which is someone can be validly regarded as a believer by action alone even if they deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of al-Qur'an

which you have not successfully countered,

If one determinedly ignores all the evidence countering your assertions that I have provided....

than any number of reasons can be conjured for someone uttering the words of disbelieve when they are not disbelievers.

I can only think of one ie people utter the word of disbelief under compulsion/because they feel that being open about their Islamic loyalties may put them or the position of Islam in a particular area of the world in jeopardy. Provide some other scenarios where a devout believer might utter words of kufr

Prove to me that it is impossible for someone to utter disbelief and still believe or submit.

It is possible for someone to superficially "submit" to Islam without belief - as the verse about the desert Arabs suggests. However, there is zero evidence in the Qur'an that people who outwardly adopt Islamic rituals and norms without belief in the prophethood of Muhammad will go anywhere but hell. The Qur'anic evidence is 100% against it eg

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, IN THE REVELATION TO YOU, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. (3.199)

See? Allah the "People of the Book" who will avoid hell are those who accept the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an. Those who do not will go to hell. How much clearer can you get?

Clearly the verse you brought to me separates that act of disbelieving and uttering disbelief so that ones on my side.

To someone who is intent on bending the evidence to fit their personal preferences..

Also, concerning the Desert Arab verse...
I'm sorry, does that mean that those Desert Arabs were hypocrites when they said "we believe?"

Taking into consideration the other Qur'anic verses regarding the hypocrites, yes.

Nowhere in that verse does it mention the desert arabs being hypocrites. Even when they incorrectly call themselves believers, the clarification the Quran makes is that they are still submitters.

But you cannot logically deduce from this that they will not burn in hell if they do not fulfill Allah's expectation that they will become BELIEVERS.

Further, the verse does not prohibit anything. It just implores the Prophet to tell the desert Arabs that they should say "we submit." IT doesn't say, you can't say "we believe" because it is haraam or you are destined for hell because of this, etc.

Allah is issuing an order NOT to say "we believe" when one does not. Disobeying any commandment of Allah and his messenger is an act of kufr the reward for which is hell. Do you deny this?

Instead it says you are incorrect in calling yourself "believers" so you should say "We submit" instead. That isn't much of a prohibition.

Allah is clearly stating "DON'T call yourselves believers". That is obviously a prohibition rather than a casual suggestion.

Also, notice how it tells the prophet to say XYZ.

Where does it do that?

I do not deny that hypocrites will go to hell or kafirs, etc. Our definitions are different though. Why is this so hard for you to figure out?

If you were compiling a dictionary of Islamic terminology how would you define the words "Kafir" and "Munafiq"?

you_gunna_eat_that

Peace

First you say...
"IE which is someone can be validly regarded as a believer by action alone even if they deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of al-Qur'an"

Wrong...By action, I said you could be a submitter. Key difference. This is a problem we are having in this debate. You are not understanding my terms and argument.

Next...
"If one determinedly ignores all the evidence countering your assertions that I have provided...."

Not an argument...

Next...
I can only think of one ie people utter the word of disbelief under compulsion/because they feel that being open about their Islamic loyalties may put them or the position of Islam in a particular area of the world in jeopardy. Provide some other scenarios where a devout believer might utter words of kufr

Again, you mischaracterize my position. I have not said that they can still be considered a devout believer and if it sounds like I have, I am sorry and that's not what I believe. Instead, I believe that the the verse of the nomads shows us that words are cheap and thus those who utter disbelief can still be submitters if they obey the laws of Allah and his Messenger. Please see my previous posts for a more comprehensive explanation.

Next...
It is possible for someone to superficially "submit" to Islam without belief - as the verse about the desert Arabs suggests. However, there is zero evidence in the Qur'an that people who outwardly adopt Islamic rituals and norms without belief in the prophethood of Muhammad will go anywhere but hell.

Wrong...The verse exhibits that belief can be supericial, not superficial "submission." If you can not properly explicate the verse, it is no wonder you can not follow my argument.

The Qur'anic evidence is 100% against it eg
And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, IN THE REVELATION TO YOU, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. (3.199)
See? Allah the "People of the Book" who will avoid hell are those who accept the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an.
Those who do not will go to hell. How much clearer can you get?

This verse is not limiting. It does not say these are the only people of the book that will go to heaven. In fact, God says those who believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good will have nothing to fear, which does not contradict this verse at all and opens up more at least conditions for heaven. How much clearer can it get?

Next...
To someone who is intent on bending the evidence to fit their personal preferences..

Funny...I offer my interpretation of a verse and you offer me this zero argument insult based response. Sort of how this whole debate has been going.

Next...
Taking into consideration the other Qur'anic verses regarding the hypocrites, yes.

The verse clearly says they should call themselves submitters, not hypocrites. Do you think submitters and hypocrites are the same thing?

Next...
Allah is issuing an order NOT to say "we believe" when one does not. Disobeying any commandment of Allah and his messenger is an act of kufr the reward for which is hell. Do you deny this?

Arguments please...I don't want to just hear "no he's not." The verse tells Muhammad to tell them to say they are submitters since they are not believers. I believe that is the message that is supposed to be taken from this verse. Belief is something that comes with a firmness in the heart, not something that just rolls off the tongue. If it was a command to tell the submitters to not call themselves believers, how come there are no retributive measures mentioned (as in you are going to go to hell if you don't) or any explicit mention that this is the law of God (or something similar) as there normally is when God issues a commandment?
Further, when the submitters are incorrectly calling themselves believers, it no where mentions that they are destined to hell. So, how can this be taken as a commandment?
Also, do these submitters who are not believers end up in hell? No way.
Finally, I would like to say that I disobey a commandment of Allah and his messenger every day. I constantly sin, etc. But, I also try (and often fail) to calm myself and do good and avoid disobeying Allah's laws. In fact, this previous characterization is how I perceive most of humanity (except for the bad apples) is. We do bad but we try to atone for the bad we have done and do good. Thus, when you say "disobeying any commandment of Allah and his messenger is an act of kufr and the reward of this is hell," I'll see you in hell because I am sure that you, like the rest of us have disobeyed one of God's commandements.

Peace

DH

First you say...

"IE which is someone can be validly regarded as a believer by action alone even if they deny the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of al-Qur'an"

Wrong...By action, I said you could be a submitter. Key difference. This is a problem we are having in this debate. You are not understanding my terms and argument....I believe that the the verse of the nomads shows us that words are cheap and thus those who utter disbelief can still be submitters if they obey the laws of Allah and his Messenger.

Let us go back to the verse you brought on the desert Arabs

PICKTHAL The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Now please clarify. Is it your contention that those who - like the desert Arabs mentioned - "submit" can still avoid hell on the basis of their deeds alone even though they do not BELIEVE and die in disbelief? Yes or No. Ah I see you have already answered this at the bottom of your post.

Next..."If one determinedly ignores all the evidence countering your assertions that I have provided...."

Not an argument...

One can't really argue against a non-argument

I can only think of one ie people utter the word of disbelief under compulsion/because they feel that being open about their Islamic loyalties may put them or the position of Islam in a particular area of the world in jeopardy. Provide some other scenarios where a devout believer might utter words of kufr

Again, you mischaracterize my position. I have not said that they can still be considered a devout believer..

Fine. I'll remember that.

Next...
It is possible for someone to superficially "submit" to Islam without belief - as the verse about the desert Arabs suggests. However, there is zero evidence in the Qur'an that people who outwardly adopt Islamic rituals and norms without belief in the prophethood of Muhammad will go anywhere but hell.

Wrong...The verse exhibits that belief can be superficial, not superficial "submission."

Surely BELIEVING in the Qur'an as the divine word is a component of SUBMITTING to the will of Allah expressed therein. If one to all intents and purposes BEHAVES like a good Muslim (submitter) yet does not believe then ones "submission" is indeed superficial.

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book, those who believe in Allah, IN THE REVELATION TO YOU, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to Allah They will not sell the Signs of Allah for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and Allah is swift in account. (3.199)
See? Allah the "People of the Book" who will avoid hell are those who accept the prophethood of Muhammad/divine origin of Qur'an.
Those who do not will go to hell. How much clearer can you get?

This verse is not limiting. It does not say these are the only people of the book that will go to heaven. In fact, God says those who believe in God, the Last Day, and do Good will have nothing to fear, which does not contradict this verse at all and opens up more at least conditions for heaven. How much clearer can it get?

The Qur'an is absolutely clear that if a person denies ANY of the signs of Allah and ANY of his prophets they are a Kafir who will go to hell. Furthermore there is also the verse

"Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own - in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." (007.157)

Now please try and argue that the "unlettered prophet" is not Muhammad and that the above does not amount to a command to the people of the Torah (Jews) and People of the Gospel (Christians) to believe in Muhamad as the final messenger of Allah AND follow the Qur'an - a command which if disobeyed will be punished with hell fire.

The verse clearly says they should call themselves submitters, not hypocrites. Do you think submitters and hypocrites are the same thing?

A person who displays the outward signs of being a good Muslim whilst disbelieving in their heart is clearly a hypocrite according to the Qur'an. With respect to the desert Arabs this is corroborated by

The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise. (997)

Next...
Allah is issuing an order NOT to say "we believe" when one does not. Disobeying any commandment of Allah and his messenger is an act of kufr the reward for which is hell. Do you deny this?

Arguments please...I don't want to just hear "no he's not." The verse tells Muhammad to tell them to say they are submitters

Where does the verse tell "Muhammad" to say this? You are a stickler for whether bracketed words appear in the original Arabic
I believe? Is this so in this case?

since they are not believers. I believe that is the message that is supposed to be taken from this verse.

Belief is something that comes with a firmness in the heart, not something that just rolls off the tongue.

True

If it was a command to tell the submitters to not call themselves believers, how come there are no retributive measures mentioned (as in you are going to go to hell if you don't) or any explicit mention that this is the law of God (or something similar) as there normally is when God issues a commandment?

There are many verses in the Qur'an that command the people to "obey Allah and his messenger" and promise punishment for failure to do so. Omission in one verse cannot seriously be regarded as an exemption from this.

Further, when the submitters are incorrectly calling themselves believers, it no where mentions that they are destined to hell. So, how can this be taken as a commandment?

Also, do these submitters who are not believers end up in hell? No way.

Even though you can provide no positive statement that they are exempted from the numerous Qur'anic verses that clearly state that disbelievers will go to hell. Wishful thinking is no substitute for evidence. You may not like the idea that someone who otherwise lives an exemplary and humane life is going to hell just for disbelieving in the prophethood of Muhammad. Islam is what it is I am afraid. As Allah says

"It matters not whether you like a thing....Allah knows you know not"

you_gunna_eat_that

Peace,

First...
Now please clarify. Is it your contention that those who - like the desert Arabs mentioned - "submit" can still avoid hell on the basis of their deeds alone even though they do not BELIEVE and die in disbelief? Yes or No. Ah I see you have already answered this at the bottom of your post.

You are on the right track except for when you say the desert Arabs die in a state of disbelief. They die in a state of submission. They do not disbelieve in God, they just don't have the firmness in their heart that a believer does. I do believe though that these submitters who don't believe can be saved.

Next you say...
Surely BELIEVING in the Qur'an as the divine word is a component of SUBMITTING to the will of Allah expressed therein. If one to all intents and purposes BEHAVES like a good Muslim (submitter) yet does not believe then ones "submission" is indeed superficial.

Belief is clearly not a necessary condition though since the desert Arabs clearly don't believe but still submit.

Peace

DH

I do believe though that these submitters who don't believe can be saved.

Where in the Qur'an is it stated or at least implied people that who superficially "submit" can still be saved if they don't get round to actually believing?

Belief is clearly not a necessary condition though since the desert Arabs clearly don't believe but still submit.

Clearly? Where in the Qur'an is this clearly stated?

BTW shall I take your silence on the matter as an acknowledgement that verse 7157 (quoted above) amounts to a command to the Jews and Christians to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and obey the Qur'an?

you_gunna_eat_that

Where in the Qur'an is it stated or at least implied people that who superficially "submit" can still be saved if they don't get round to actually believing?

Clearly? Where in the Qur'an is this clearly stated?

BTW shall I take your silence on the matter as an acknowledgement that verse 7157 (quoted above) amounts to a command to the Jews and Christians to believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and obey the Qur'an?

Peace

First of all, who said anyone was superficially submitting? That was and is not my contention so you are attacking a straw man. I said submitters (Muslims) will go to heaven. It is clearly implied in the nomad verse that one can be a submitter without believing.

Also, concerning the verse I did not address...
YUSUFALI "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."
The conditions set out in this verse are not limiting. I do not see anywhere where it says only these people will get into heaven. I have more to say about the verse but I am a bit busy so forgive me.

Peace

DH

First of all, who said anyone was superficially submitting?

I did.

That was and is not my contention so you are attacking a straw man.

See above

I said submitters (Muslims) will go to heaven. It is clearly implied in the nomad verse that one can be a submitter without believing.

The question is, where is it clearly implied in that verse or elsewhere in the Qur'an that those who "submit" without belief will go anywhere but hell?

Also, concerning the verse I did not address...
YUSUFALI "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

The conditions set out in this verse are not limiting.

Says you without any justification whatsoever.

I do not see anywhere where it says only these people will get into heaven.

The following ayats amply demonstrate that this is indeed the case, however much you may wish otherwise

You are the best of the nations raised up for men; you

enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong

and

believe in Allah;

and if the peoples of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them are believers but most of them are transgressors.(3110)

004.047
O you People of the Book! believe in what We have revealed, confirming what was with you, before We change the face and fame of some beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. (447)

If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss. (565)

The Kafirs, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures. (986)

What can you bring from the Qur'an to counter the clear message of these verses that Jews,Christians or anybody else who disbelieves is going on a one-way trip to a very hot place - however much they superficially "submit"?

Leyna

What can you bring from the Qur'an to counter the clear message of these verses that Jews,Christians or anybody else who disbelieves is going on a one-way trip to a very hot place - however much they superficially "submit"?

See first page.

DH

See first page.

Well taking your own referenced verse

Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians,

whoever of them

believes in God and the Last Day and does good works;

they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve. (262)

which clearly supports my contention - further corroborated by other Qur'an verses - that belief as well as deeds is essential for Jews/Christians/Sabians to enter the garden of bliss as opposed to their being thrown into hell.

I have further argued, with ample Qur'anic references, that "belief" necessarily encompasses belief in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an.

Don't you like the idea of a Christian mushrik like Mother Theresa who devoted her life to helping the poor being chucked into hell? That's the way it is according to the book of Allah I am afraid.

Leyna

Don't you like the idea of a Christian mushrik like Mother Theresa who devoted her life to helping the poor being chucked into hell? That's the way it is according to the book of Allah I am afraid.

It has nothing to do with not liking that idea, I simply don't believe it. If it makes you feel better and more superior to believe this, go ahead.

you_gunna_eat_that

Salaam,

First...
The question is, where is it clearly implied in that verse or elsewhere in the Qur'an that those who "submit" without belief will go anywhere but hell?

Well in the verse, it is said that these are submitters who do not believe. Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the only way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.
Further, you have yet to bring positive evidence for your argument thatthose who submit but don't believe will go to hell.

Next you say...
Says you without any justification whatsoever.

Arguments please...

Next you say...
The following ayats amply demonstrate that this is indeed the case, however much you may wish otherwise
You are the best of the nations raised up for men; you

enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong
and
believe in Allah;
and if the peoples of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them are believers but most of them are transgressors.(3110)

004.047
O you People of the Book! believe in what We have revealed, confirming what was with you, before We change the face and fame of some beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. (447)

If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss. (565)

The Kafirs, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures. (986)

What can you bring from the Qur'an to counter the clear message of these verses that Jews,Christians or anybody else who disbelieves is going on a one-way trip to a very hot place - however much they superficially "submit"?

First of all, I think we should go one or two verses per post. This will add more depth to our analysis and it will help me respond to all you have to say.

Secondly, you are working from your definition of belief here, which i feel you lack ample warrant for. Since this is a definitional debate offer me your interpretations of verses and tell me why they are correct because we clearly interpre this verses differently.

Finally, I want to reexplain one of my points. None of these verses are limiting. This means that none of them say "only these" people will get into heaven. Thus, there is no explicit or implicit contradiction between these verses and those that say other groups of people not mentioned here will go to heaven.
Peace

you_gunna_eat_that

Well taking your own referenced verse

Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians,

whoever of them

believes in God and the Last Day and does good works;

they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve. (262)

which clearly supports my contention - further corroborated by other Qur'an verses - that belief as well as deeds is essential for Jews/Christians/Sabians to enter the garden of bliss as opposed to their being thrown into hell.

I have further argued, with ample Qur'anic references, that "belief" necessarily encompasses belief in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an.

Don't you like the idea of a Christian mushrik like Mother Theresa who devoted her life to helping the poor being chucked into hell? That's the way it is according to the book of Allah I am afraid.

Peace again

First of all, what translation have you chosen for 262. I have never seen it translated as "from those" immediately before it describes others who may get in heaven such as those who believe in God, the last day and does good.
Also, I just want to drive the point home that this verse is not limiting. It never says only these folks will get in. Finally, this verse says nothing about believing in the prophet or the divine texts. Thus, non Muslims as we have defined them can go to heaven as indicated by this verse. This was the original debate.
Peace

DH

It has nothing to do with not liking that idea, I simply don't believe it.

So you don't believe Allah when he says in his book, the Qur'an, that people like mother Theresa who subscribe to such doctrines as the holy trinity and Jesus being the son of Allah are mushrik kafirs?

DH

Salaam,

First...
The question is, where is it clearly implied in that verse or elsewhere in the Qur'an that those who "submit" without belief will go anywhere but hell?

Well in the verse, it is said that these are submitters who do not believe. Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the only way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.

The only way? Surely, Allah states that he rewards people in THIS world eg

And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah the term is fixed; and whoever desires the reward of this world, I shall give him of it, and whoever desires the reward of the hereafter I shall give him of it, and I will reward the grateful. (3145)

So which is more plausible?

Allah may furnish Kafir "submitters" with worldly rewards for certain deeds yet still refuse them admission to paradise for their kufr
Allah may allow Kafir "submitters" into the garden despite numerous unambiguous statements throughout the Qur'an that he will burn disbelievers in hell for nothing more than their disbelief
????

Further, you have yet to bring positive evidence for your argument thatthose who submit but don't believe will go to hell.

What would constitute "positive evidence" in your eyes?

Next you say...
Says you without any justification whatsoever.

Arguments please...

It is up to you to provide arguments in support of your assertions otherwise the charge of "without justification" is utterly valid.

Next you say...
The following ayats amply demonstrate that this is indeed the case, however much you may wish otherwise
You are the best of the nations raised up for men; you

enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong
and
believe in Allah;
and if the peoples of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them are believers but most of them are transgressors.(3110)

004.047
O you People of the Book! believe in what We have revealed, confirming what was with you, before We change the face and fame of some beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. (447)

If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss. (565)

The Kafirs, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures. (986)

What can you bring from the Qur'an to counter the clear message of these verses that Jews,Christians or anybody else who disbelieves is going on a one-way trip to a very hot place - however much they superficially "submit"?

First of all, I think we should go one or two verses per post. This will add more depth to our analysis and it will help me respond to all you have to say.

Secondly, you are working from your definition of belief here, which i feel you lack ample warrant for.

What do you understand as being my definition of "belief"?

Finally, I want to reexplain one of my points. None of these verses are limiting. This means that none of them say "only these" people will get into heaven.

You have provided not one single verse which explicitly states that disbelievers who nevertheless "submit" WILL or even MAY go to heaven or Will NOT go to hell. This is because no such verse exists in the Qur'an. Therefore, other verses in the Qur'an must be referred to to find out which is the most plausible scenario. I have provided numerous Koranic quotes that clearly state "Kafirs will burn in hell". You have provided not ONE that explicitly states "Kafirs will/may not burn in hell if they fulfil certain conditions". The weight of the overall evidence is therefore 0% in your favor and 100% in mine.

Thus, there is no explicit or implicit contradiction between these verses and those that say other groups of people not mentioned here will go to heaven.
Peace

A flawed conclusion arrived at through flawed logic.

DH

First of all, what translation have you chosen for 262. I have never seen it translated as "from those" immediately before it describes others who may get in heaven such as those who believe in God, the last day and does good.

I merely copied and pasted the translation furnished by Leyna in her first post on this thread. If you have a problem with it take it up with her.

Also, I just want to drive the point home that this verse is not limiting. It never says only these folks will get in.

See my previous post regarding this "argument"

Thus, non Muslims as we have defined them can go to heaven as indicated by this verse. This was the original debate.

Sorry, remind me of how "we" have defined "non-Muslims"?

you_gunna_eat_that

Salaam,

First you say...
"The only way? Surely, Allah states that he rewards people in THIS world eg
And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah the term is fixed; and whoever desires the reward of this world, I shall give him of it, and whoever desires the reward of the hereafter I shall give him of it, and I will reward the grateful. (3145)
So which is more plausible?

Allah may furnish Kafir "submitters" with worldly rewards for certain deeds yet still refuse them admission to paradise for their kufr
Allah may allow Kafir "submitters" into the garden despite numerous unambiguous statements throughout the Qur'an that he will burn disbelievers in hell for nothing more than their disbelief
????"

The verse 4914 itself does not say that the deeds will only be rewarded on this earth. I guess you can interpret it that way though; God will give these submitters rewards on earth for their good deeds but they will be burnt in hell when they die.
My question to God then would be what changed? These submitters who did not have the faith to call themselves believers could still be rewarded on earth even though they are about to be thrown in hell. Shouldn't the punishment have had its effect even in the worldly life since it is so bad that it warrants hellfire?

Next...
"What would constitute "positive evidence" in your eyes?"

Tell me why your definition of disbelief, which includes mere utterance is correct.

Next...
"What do you understand as being my definition of "belief"?"

The important part is that I think it includes merely uttering words of disbelief.

Next...
"You have provided not one single verse, which explicitly states that disbelievers who nevertheless "submit" WILL or even MAY go to heaven or Will NOT go to hell. This is because no such verse exists in the Qur'an. Therefore, other verses in the Qur'an must be referred to to find out which is the most plausible scenario. I have provided numerous Koranic quotes that clearly state "Kafirs will burn in hell". You have provided not ONE that explicitly states "Kafirs will/may not burn in hell if they fulfil certain conditions". The weight of the overall evidence is therefore 0% in your favor and 100% in mine."

Well thats probably because I never said kafirs who submit will go to heaven. Its shocking that at this stage you still can not get my argument right. I have said submitters will go to heaven and submitters do not have to believe as indicated by the verse 4913 we are discussing above. Just because they do not believe does not make them kafirs though. Maybe your confusion is you assume anyone who does not believe is a kafir and thus you quite nicely have showed me many verses saying kafirs are going to hell. Yet, consider that babies and many animals do not have beliefs. By the assumption that anyone who does not believe is a kafir, babies and animals are kafirs and babies who die before they grow cognitive faculties are destined to hell.

I believe there are other categories of people (i.e. submitters) who are not kafirs and who will not go to hell. But let me know what you think. Are babies who lack beliefs disbelievers on their way to hell?

Also, all those nice verses about kafirs you showed me, I have never denied one of them. Rather, our difference is in interpretation. I work from a different defintion of kafir. So, all this 'evidence' you have brought me has really amounted to nothing.

Finally you say...
A flawed conclusion arrived at through flawed logic.

Funny...

Peace

you_gunna_eat_that

So you don't believe Allah when he says in his book, the Qur'an, that people like mother Theresa who subscribe to such doctrines as the holy trinity and Jesus being the son of Allah are mushrik kafirs?

Peace

I don't know about Leyna but I just don't believe you...

DH

Never claimed it did. It establishes the principle that Allah rewards people in this world as well as the hereafter and therefore refutes your above statement Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the ONLY way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.

I guess you can interpret it that way though; God will give these submitters rewards on earth for their good deeds but they will be burnt in hell when they die. My question to God then would be what changed? These submitters who did not have the faith to call themselves believers could still be rewarded on earth even though they are about to be thrown in hell. Shouldn't the punishment have had its effect even in the worldly life since it is so bad that it warrants hellfire?

In the verse about the desert Arabs Allah talks about belief having not YET entered into their hearts. So he is obviously allowing time for this to happen. In the meantime they may receive worldly rewards like a share of the booty taken from those with whom the Muslims are at war if they participate in campaigns. If the desert Arabs nevertheless persist in disbelief to the end of their days then there is absolutely no Qur'anic justification for your contention that they could go anywhere but hell.

Next...
"What would constitute "positive evidence" in your eyes?"

Tell me why your definition of disbelief, which includes mere utterance is correct.

I have already done so.

Next...
"What do you understand as being my definition of "belief"?"

The important part is that I think it includes merely uttering words of disbelief.

It does include that, and I have provided qur'anic reference to back this up. Want some more?

Next...
"You have provided not one single verse, which explicitly states that disbelievers who nevertheless "submit" WILL or even MAY go to heaven or Will NOT go to hell. This is because no such verse exists in the Qur'an. Therefore, other verses in the Qur'an must be referred to to find out which is the most plausible scenario. I have provided numerous Koranic quotes that clearly state "Kafirs will burn in hell". You have provided not ONE that explicitly states "Kafirs will/may not burn in hell if they fulfil certain conditions". The weight of the overall evidence is therefore 0% in your favor and 100% in mine."

Well thats probably because I never said kafirs who submit will go to heaven.

What exactly do you think constitutes a "Kafir" in the eyes of Allah?

Just because they do not believe does not make them kafirs though.

Provide some Qur'anic corroboration for this claim.

I believe there are other categories of people (i.e. submitters) who are not kafirs and who will not go to hell.

And an ambiguous statement in a single verse of the Qur'an is the only "evidence" you have provided to support this view.

But let me know what you think. Are babies who lack beliefs disbelievers on their way to hell?

I cannot think of any reason why such babies would not be so destined. Can you?

DH

Peace

I don't know about Leyna but I just don't believe you...

You don't believe that those who say things like "Jesus is the son of God" are mushrik kafirs then?

savage_carrot

Are babies who lack beliefs disbelievers on their way to hell?

I cannot think of any reason why such babies would not be so destined. Can you?

In order to disbelieve, you have to have the capacity to understand what not to believe in.