How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Concubinage
A concubine is generally a woman in an ongoing, matrimonial-like relationship with a man, whom she cannot marry for a specific reason. The reason may be because she is of lower social rank than the man or because the man is already married. Generally, only men of high economic and social status have concubines. Many historical rulers maintained concubines as well as wives.Historically, concubinage was frequently voluntary (by the woman and/or her family's arrangement), as it provided a measure of economic security for the woman involved.
Whether it has no legal status, as in ancient Rome, or is defined in law, as in ancient China, concubinage is akin, although inferior, to marriage. In opposition to those laws, traditional Western laws do not acknowledge the legal status of concubines, rather only admitting monogamous marriages. Any other relationship does not enjoy legal protection; and the woman is essentially a mistress.
Concubinus
In Ancient Rome, this was the title of a young male who was chosen by his master as a lover. Concubini were often referred to ironically in the literature of the time. Catullus assumes in the wedding poem 61.126 that the young manor lord has a concubinus who considers himself elevated above the other slaves.A European painting of an Emperor of China with his concubines inspecting his fantasy fishing fleet In the Bible
Among the Israelites, it was common for men to acknowledge their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives. The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not.The concubine commanded the same respect and inviolability as the wife, and it was regarded as the deepest dishonour, for the man to whom she belonged, if other hands were laid upon her; David is portrayed as having become greatly dishonoured when his concubines had a sexual relationship with his son Absalom.
Since it was regarded as the highest blessing to have many children, while the greatest curse was childlessness, legitimate wives often gave their maids to their husbands to atone, at least in part, for their own barrenness, as in the cases of Sarah and Hagar, Leah and Zilpah, Rachel and Bilhah. The children of the concubine had equal rights with those of the legitimate wife; for example, King Abimelech was the son of Gideon and his concubine.
Later biblical figures such as Gideon, David, and Solomon had concubines in addition to many childbearing wives. For example, the Book of Kings claims that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage
Maybe MMA is a concubine and not a slave. If so then that would support Samia's analysis that its a romantic partner acknowledged as such by family and society resembling what we call today a live-in girlfriend and boyfriend.
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Concubinage
...Hold your horses big man.
Concubine c.1300, from L. concubina (fem.), from concumbere "to lie with," from com- "with" + cubare "to lie down."
It's not the same thing as ma malakat aymanukum, it just doesn't even sound like it relates to the the term there.
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For the OP
2432
And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.2433
And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.The message in these two verses is quiet clear. The Quran is encouraging those who are single to get married so that they may refrain from committing adulterly.
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For the OP
2432
And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.2433
And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.The message in these two verses is quiet clear. The Quran is encouraging those who are single to get married so that they may refrain from committing adulterly.
You might want to have a more detailed look at 2433. It does not say "let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste untill....." It's been brought up on the thread before.
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peace nima,
You might want to have a more detailed look at 2433. It does not say "let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste untill....." It's been brought up on the thread before.
The thread is rather long, can you tell us what it says for the benefit of szuberi, or direct us to the specific post number, here is the word for word
2433
Wa lyastaAAfifi allatheena la yajidoona nikahan hatta...
and let be chaste/refrain those who not find marriage until...Assuming you translate it as "refrain", from what? (with reasoning ideally)
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peace nima,
The thread is rather long, can you tell us what it says for the benefit of szuberi, or direct us to the specific post number, here is the word for word
2433
Wa lyastaAAfifi allatheena la yajidoona nikahan hatta...
and let be chaste/refrain those who not find marriage until...Assuming you translate it as "refrain", from what? (with reasoning ideally)
Peace Wakas
Here is what i understand
2433 And let those who are not able to marry continue to abstain until God enriches them of His Bounty.
I see two possiblities. Either abstain from
a) sex or b) marriage
Now considering that the verse is advising those who have not the means to get married, i would think that when the verse says abstain, it means abstain from marriage and not sex.
Here's a comparison i did in my mind which helped me decide
And let those who are not able to marry continue to refrain from sex until God enriches them of His Bounty.
And let those who are not able to marry continue to refrain from marriage until God enriches them of His Bounty. -
I don't understand nimnimak_11, if they are not able to marry they'll obviously refrain from marriage since they are not able to marry? That is what "not being able to marry" would mean as it is? It is obviously pointing at something other than refraining from marriage as not being able to marry automatically means that they can't but refrain from marriage. You can refrain if you have the option to do something. If you don't have the option to do it you can't do it anyway so you're refraining from it one way or the other.
It's like over on the pork threads someone said pig meat means "meat that is bad" so the verse apparently said don't eat meat that is bad because it is bad.
Peace.
*edit to correct
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I don't understand nimnimak_11, if they are not able to marry they'll obviously refrain from marriage since they are not able to marry? That is what "not being able to marry" would mean as it is? It is obviously pointing at something other than not being able to marry as that automatically means that they can't but refrain from marriage.
It's like over on the pork threads someone said pig meat means "meat that is bad" so the verse apparently said don't eat meat that is bad because it is bad.
Peace.
Why didn't i see it that way -[
I think it was the "untill God enriches them of his bounty" part of the verse that lead me to my understanding.
I thought If you don't have the means for getting married then wait untill God provides with the means which sounded ok in my head.but the word abstain which is not the same as wait, would logically have to apply to something other than marriage and the only other thing i can think of is sex.
but then this creates a dilema IMO when taking verses such 235-6 into account as such verses say that sex with MMA leaves us blameless. Now either
a) Sex with MMA is blameless but it is better to abstain untill marriage (not a sin if you don't abstain) or
b) Sex with MMA can only happen after marriage which would then mean that there would be two sexual partners as i really can't see MMA being the same as azwaaj and morally i can't see sex being acceptable with more then one partner in a marriage so that just leaves one possiblity aSomething must be missing or misunderstood somewhere with regards to MMA and exclusivity of sex to marriage.
Peace
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I'm still researching this MMA thing just thought I'd share my thoughts on what seemed solid imo. I have some time now to really get into it. Btw, it's refreshing discussing with you, one doesn't have to deal with "that doesn't make sense but I'll still argue about it" D
Peace.
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I'm still researching this MMA thing just thought I'd share my thoughts on what seemed solid imo. I have some time now to really get into it. Btw, it's refreshing discussing with you, one doesn't have to deal with "that doesn't make sense but I'll still argue about it" D
Peace.
I'm glad you did and I thank you for it as it has influenced my thinking on this issue. After discussing with Aalmakto, i was in a completely uncertain state regarding this issue in terms of quranic advice. I was trying to find a verse that may perhaps suggest that abstaining from sex untill marriage might be a good thing as i still did not believe in there being anything concrete about sex being exclusive to marriage (I still don't because of MMAs) and that was the only other lead i felt i could take on the issue of relations with regards to the Quran. At the very least, 2433 (on current understanding) implies that it is better to abstain from sex untill marriage.
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I don't understand nimnimak_11, if they are not able to marry they'll obviously refrain from marriage since they are not able to marry? That is what "not being able to marry" would mean as it is?
it is not that obvious, people do get married even if they don't have means to support a family. May be you haven't heard of this story
Question I cannot afford to get married, so please advise me on what to do to avoid lustful sins in a way that is actually practical and effective.
Answer....
Once, a young man from the Prophet?s companions came to the Prophet (S) and said to him, ?My mother and I have had nothing at all for lunch today.? He expected that the Prophet (S) would give him something, but the Prophet (S) said to him,
?Get married!?
The young man thought that the Prophet (S) did not hear him properly, so he said again, ?O messenger of Allah, I have had nothing even for lunch today. How can I get married??
The Prophet (S) said again, ?Get married!?
The young man repeated his saying and the Prophet (S) said to him, ?Get married!?
The young man was astonished that the Prophet (S) did not give him anything, though the generous Prophet (S) would give his clothes and food even to his enemies.
The young man went back to his mother and told her what the Prophet (S) had said.
The mother said, ?Surely, the Prophet (S) sees a wisdom in that.? She asked for her son?s permission to ask for their neighbor?s hand. He agreed and the girl came to her husband?s house so simply and with no cost that the wedding was on the same day.
The young man thought to himself that he could not leave his wife with no means of livelihood. Therefore, he went out of the town to collect some firewood. He sold the firewood for two dirhams. He bought some food with one dirham and saved the other to buy an axe. When he had collected four dirhams, he could afford to buy an axe to cut firewood with, in order to not hurt his hands with thorns.
After some days, he could afford to buy a camel to carry the firewood on to the market. Every morning, he went to the desert to collect firewood with his axe and then carried it on his camel to the market to sell it. On the fortieth day of his marriage, the Prophet (S) saw him in Medina leading his camel. The Prophet (S) asked him about the camel. The young man told the Prophet (S) his story. The Prophet (S) said to him, ?Did I not tell you to get married?? Later on, this young man became one of the wealthiest people of Medina.Dear brother, do not fear poverty, because fearing poverty will keep you in it! Rely on Allah sincerely and try your best to find how the promise of Allah will shine in your joint life with your wife!
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it is not that obvious, people do get married even if they don't have means to support a family.
We aren't talking about financial problems here solely, the people in question may not be able to get married for any number of reasons. As for the story, how did he find so much firewood in the desert I wonder. With thorny wood no less. Odd.I'm glad you did and I thank you for it as it has influenced my thinking on this issue. After discussing with Aalmakto, i was in a completely uncertain state regarding this issue in terms of quranic advice. I was trying to find a verse that may perhaps suggest that abstaining from sex untill marriage might be a good thing as i still did not believe in there being anything concrete about sex being exclusive to marriage (I still don't because of MMAs) and that was the only other lead i felt i could take on the issue of relations with regards to the Quran. At the very least, 2433 (on current understanding) implies that it is better to abstain from sex untill marriage.
The MMA issue has been bothering me for a while now I must admit. Just the other day I was having a discussion about it and I realised I have to go through everything again to find a satisfactory conclusion. Previously when I've participated/read such, it hasn't been entirely spot on for me too so yeah, one of the priorities on my list.
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it is not that obvious, people do get married even if they don't have means to support a family. May be you haven't heard of this story
Question I cannot afford to get married, so please advise me on what to do to avoid lustful sins in a way that is actually practical and effective.
Answer....
Once, a young man from the Prophet?s companions came to the Prophet (S) and said to him, ?My mother and I have had nothing at all for lunch today.? He expected that the Prophet (S) would give him something, but the Prophet (S) said to him,
?Get married!?
The young man thought that the Prophet (S) did not hear him properly, so he said again, ?O messenger of Allah, I have had nothing even for lunch today. How can I get married??
The Prophet (S) said again, ?Get married!?
The young man repeated his saying and the Prophet (S) said to him, ?Get married!?
The young man was astonished that the Prophet (S) did not give him anything, though the generous Prophet (S) would give his clothes and food even to his enemies.
The young man went back to his mother and told her what the Prophet (S) had said.
The mother said, ?Surely, the Prophet (S) sees a wisdom in that.? She asked for her son?s permission to ask for their neighbor?s hand. He agreed and the girl came to her husband?s house so simply and with no cost that the wedding was on the same day.
The young man thought to himself that he could not leave his wife with no means of livelihood. Therefore, he went out of the town to collect some firewood. He sold the firewood for two dirhams. He bought some food with one dirham and saved the other to buy an axe. When he had collected four dirhams, he could afford to buy an axe to cut firewood with, in order to not hurt his hands with thorns.
After some days, he could afford to buy a camel to carry the firewood on to the market. Every morning, he went to the desert to collect firewood with his axe and then carried it on his camel to the market to sell it. On the fortieth day of his marriage, the Prophet (S) saw him in Medina leading his camel. The Prophet (S) asked him about the camel. The young man told the Prophet (S) his story. The Prophet (S) said to him, ?Did I not tell you to get married?? Later on, this young man became one of the wealthiest people of Medina.Dear brother, do not fear poverty, because fearing poverty will keep you in it! Rely on Allah sincerely and try your best to find how the promise of Allah will shine in your joint life with your wife!
But if somone says i don't have the means to get married, this should logically imply that it is impossible for them to get married
I know some people say this based on finance which would mean they could theoretically still get married but then they should say something like i don't have as much money as i'd like to get married but i can theoretically still get married.2433 is a quranic verse so it has to make logical sense.
So in this case not having the means to get married would be like not having someone to marry (whch then makes marriage impossible)Also thank you for the advice brother. I have not experienced poverty but have experienced something like it and greatly feared it. I was praying alot and trying to be positive. What i remembered was not to get preoccupied with this life and that no matter what God will provide. I came to a similiar situation again and the experience put only a temporary fear in me but was quickly gone where as before, this fear/stress which felt like hell lasted for at least 2 to 3 weeks.
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You might want to have a more detailed look at 2433. It does not say "let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste untill....." It's been brought up on the thread before.
If the Quran is advising the singles to abstain from marriage until they have means to get married, how can it not prohibit an adulterous relatioship on the other hand at the same time? If you believe that sex before marriage is OK, then why in 2432, we are told to encourage the single among us to get married? The only rationale comes to mind is to prevent immorality of being in an adulterous relationship. 2432 provides the perfect context to this situation and can not be ignored.
and if this was not the case, 242 would have said "married adulteress and married adulterer"
"The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment"
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You can't commit adultery unless you are married.
adultery
voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.
please dont get hung up on the literal word here. the arabic words "azzaniyatu wauzzani" are also translated as "the fornicatress and the fornicator". Fornication is a term that typically refers to consensual sexual intercourse between unmarried heterosexual adults
it is the MOST rediculous idea imaginable that the Quran (or any other religion whatsoever) allows pre-marital sex. this is exactly why Allah tells us in 21 that "This book is a guidance for those who fear God" and those who believe premarital sex is allowed or is OK conceptually, are certainly on the wrong path.
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those who believe premarital sex is allowed or is OK conceptually, are certainly on the wrong path.
Fine, I'm on the wrong path. tempt
You beleive it's forbidden, refrain from it. You believe it's ok in certain circumstances, go for it. I will never understand why people get so hung up about what others do in their private life.
peace
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I will never understand why people get so hung up about what others do in their private life.
peace
It's because it is so powerfully tied to social issues, the way in each gender regards each other, and social well-being. In marriage husband and wife have a responsibility to each other and to their children. In a non-married relationship, do you regards this as the case? Does your partner? Do informal relationships not objectify women and men, encouraging them to think of each other as a notch in the belt? How do you know that your expectations from the relationship are the same as your partners? Marriage seeks to solve or at least reduce these problems by mutually making a public promise. Why reinvent the wheel?
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It's because it is so powerfully tied to social issues, the way in each gender regards each other, and social well-being. In marriage husband and wife have a responsibility to each other and to their children. In a non-married relationship, do you regards this as the case? Does your partner? Do informal relationships not objectify women and men, encouraging them to think of each other as a notch in the belt? How do you know that your expectations from the relationship are the same as your partners? Marriage seeks to solve or at least reduce these problems by mutually making a public promise. Why reinvent the wheel?
I understand what you're saying, liquiddharma, but I believe the issue is not as black and white as you and some others present it here. Sex without a marriage contract does NOT automatically mean that people don't care for each other, don't feel committed, or that one of the partners is being abused and / or objectified. Neither does being married mean that people act responsibly and lovingly towards each other.
I think I explained it before somewhere in this long thread, but let me try to give an example.
My friend and her partner have been together for about eight years. Everyone knows they are a couple, the extended family is involved; the parents of my friend's partner see her as the daughter in law.
They recently bought a house together, and they have two small children. She is staying at home at the moment, and he is providing for all of them; he is also paying for her education, debts she had previous to their relationship and other stuff. Should they ever decide to separate, he will still be responsible for his children under the law.So how is this objectifying anyone? Is their relationship immoral, just because they don't have a signed contract? I don't believe so. And I believe the keyword here is "public promise". Isn't it one of the key points that a couple declares to everyone that they belong together and are committed to each other?
Regarding reinventing the wheel -- I am not sure how marriages were conducted at the time of the prophet, but I am sure it was not as complicated, bureaucratic and expensive as it is nowadays. So in my eyes, a relationship such as the above described is pretty much the equivalent to an official marriage. And there are countless people living like that.
Also, I have seen so many people getting married in the Middle East just so they can move out from their parents' home and officially have sex. Is that inherently more moral than two people living together as I described above? Personally, I think no.
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Peace Leyna )
I want to write some comments on what you have said in your post. With some of the things you have said i will agree, and with some of the things you have said i will write some constructive critisism. I think that in a philosophical discussion it is important to test the ideas of people and see if they are based on logic and reason, and to see if their arguments are valid.
I understand what you're saying, liquiddharma, but I believe the issue is not as black and white as you and some others present it here. Sex without a marriage contract does NOT automatically mean that people don't care for each other, don't feel committed, or that one of the partners is being abused and / or objectified.
True. And it is the same the other way as well Sex without a marriage contract does not automatically mean that people will care for eachother, feel commited, or that one of the partners will not be abused and / or objectified.
Neither does being married mean that people act responsibly and lovingly towards each other.
True. And it is the same the other way as well Neither does being in a relationship mean that people act responsibly and lovingly towards each other. I think responsibility is based on how much a person fear/are aware of the almighty.
I think I explained it before somewhere in this long thread, but let me try to give an example.
My friend and her partner have been together for about eight years. Everyone knows they are a couple, the extended family is involved; the parents of my friend's partner see her as the daughter in law.
They recently bought a house together, and they have two small children. She is staying at home at the moment, and he is providing for all of them; he is also paying for her education, debts she had previous to their relationship and other stuff. Should they ever decide to separate, he will still be responsible for his children under the law.So how is this objectifying anyone? Is their relationship immoral, just because they don't have a signed contract?
From my understanding of the Quran, it teaches us that if two persons want to get commited/married they do should make a promise to God. As far as i know, there are no verses in the scripture of the creator that tells us that we have to have a signed contract to get commited. As mentioned above, a couple should make a promise to God if they want to get commited. Signed contracts are most likely based on man-made culture and has nothing to do with islam. So to answer your question No, i don't think it is immoral because they don't have a signed contract. However, it might be immoral because of other reasons. Moral and immoral things we need to know about is written in the Quran. So if we check the Quranic verses, we can find the things which are moral and immoral. From my study of the Quran, those who are following other systems/religions than islam have their own rules and they will be judged according to their scriptures. So if your friend and her partner are following another system/religion, they will be judged according to their system/religion. Therefore we can not say that they are immoral. But those who are following the Quran will be judged according to the permanent and timeless laws in the Quran. From my study of Quran, if two persons are muslims, they should not follow man-made laws from culture when it comes to commitment. From my understanding of the Quran, If two persons who are muslims are following man-made laws when it comes to commitment, then they are being immoral. When it comes to moral issues, i think muslims should not follow their selfish desires/lust. I think it is vital that muslims do their best to follow the Quranic laws.
I don't believe so. And I believe the keyword here is "public promise". Isn't it one of the key points that a couple declares to everyone that they belong together and are committed to each other?
Yes. You are right.From my study of the Quran, one of the key points is that a couple declares to people that they belong together and are commited together. However, in Quran, there are other key points when it comes to commitment as well.
Regarding reinventing the wheel -- I am not sure how marriages were conducted at the time of the prophet, but I am sure it was not as complicated, bureaucratic and expensive as it is nowadays. So in my eyes, a relationship such as the above described is pretty much the equivalent to an official marriage.
I think it is a shame that many marriages are complicated, bureaucratic and expensive nowadays. And i think you have some good arguments. However, saying that relationships is pretty much the equivalent to an official marriage requires evidence from the Quran. I think it is important to bring our evidence from the Quranic verses when we are claiming something about a Quranic issue.
And there are countless people living like that.
Yes there are countless people living like that. And there are countless people telling lies, but their great number does not make lying right. If many people do something that does not mean that what they are doing is right (see 6116). Argumentum ad populum http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
Also, I have seen so many people getting married in the Middle East just so they can move out from their parents' home and officially have sex. Is that inherently more moral than two people living together as I described above? Personally, I think no.
No it is not more moral. However, "two wrongs does not make one right"
http//www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html#you_too
