Owned Servants? Slaves?
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yes, quran does encourage freeing the salves but does it say the practice itself is derogatory to the human dignity in the first place? there are few things mentioned in quran saying whatever done is done do no more of this again... but quran doesn't say this in the case of slavery or does it?
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does it say the practice itself is derogatory to the human dignity in the first place?
Peace RasulHamsa, everyone,
Being owned is not a good thing. This concept comes naturally, even to children. Children often feel guilty if their family has even a paid servant doing all the dirty work, let alone a piece of human property. The Quran does speak about how it isn't good to be owned, but doesn't prohibit slavery outright
1675 God puts forth the example of a slave who is owned and cannot achieve anything, against one whom We have provided a good provision which he spends of it secretly and openly. Are they the same? God be praised, but most of them do not know.
Obviously being a piece of human property is really terrible. This is why I want to ask this important question, particularly to brother Wakas why would materials/money/wealth/economy take precedent over freeing human slaves? Can't God enrich an economy for people who give up owning human beings?
Peace,
-David
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There is still modern day slavery in Sunni Islam; you pay thousands of dollars to buy a woman, and in return she is expected to be your slave.
Heck, I even had a Sunni girl herself tell me that if I married her she would be my slave... This is how many are raised to believe, and what is expected of them in many cases.
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peace David,
I'm not sure what you're imagining as "slaves" here, but I would think it would also include in-house maids/servants/cooks/nanny/etc. If so, I dont see that as particularly bad.
Also, there may be a difference between an agreed upon "slave" and enslaving others, i.e. without agreement, as per Pharaoh.
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There is still modern day slavery in Sunni Islam; you pay thousands of dollars to buy a woman, and in return she is expected to be your slave.
Also, there are some hardcore Salafi scholars who claim that a female prisoner of war could be the equivalent of a slave. wow nope
It is not permissible for a man to have intercourse with anyone except his wife or his female slave (concubine). A wife becomes permissible after shar?i marriage and a concubine becomes permissible to the man who owns her. She may originally be a prisoner of war, and a Muslim may obtain a concubine from the ruler or commander if he took part in fighting in jihad, or if he buys her from her owner. She becomes permissible for him by virtue of his ownership after it is established that she is not pregnant by waiting for one menstrual cycle, or until she has given birth if she is pregnant.
...In the answer to question no. 10382 we have stated that Islam permits a man to have intercourse with his slave woman whether he has one or more wives or he is not married.
Intercourse with female prisoners of war
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I don't think we have a very accurate concept of slavery, as it concerns the ancient past.
The trend is to see it as a case of the highest bidder locking a person up in chains and beating them into submission, that they might have a new farm hand, rather than take into account caste systems and indentured servitude.
This is not to say that I condone the practise of slavery -- I don't ..but... there is this to consider, and other factors, when trying to understand what people might mean by "slavery", when referencing old texts.
It was a common practise in all societies, long before people had the privilege of wadding up their own personal piles of bills and coin in the piggy bank.
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I'm not sure what you're imagining as "slaves" here, but I would think it would also include in-house maids/servants/cooks/nanny/etc. If so, I dont see that as particularly bad.
Also, there may be a difference between an agreed upon "slave" and enslaving others, i.e. without agreement, as per Pharaoh.Peace Wakas, everyone,
Someone who is paid to do a job is not owned - they are not slaves. As for "an agreed upon 'slave'", that also would not be slavery, that would be some kind of psychotic relationship. If someone is crazy enough to agree to be owned by another human being, they're free to do so. However, a just society would have clinical treatments for such unfortunate people, and a just person would never agree, "Okay, Bob, I'll be your master. You'll be my slave. Whatever you say, Bob". That's sick.
Plainly, owning humans is wrong. In any capacity, owning a human being is wrong. Our species has evolved enough, socially, to understand this.
Peace,
-David
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I don't think we have a very accurate concept of slavery, as it concerns the ancient past.
Peace Shadowpuppet, everyone,
Slavery - old and new - is wrong. It doesn't matter how the ancients treated the human beings that they owned, they shouldn't have been trading their fellow men and women to begin with.
Peace,
-David
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David, yes.
You are correct. It is wrong.
But if you go back and read my post, thoroughly....
you will see that I am simply using the full perspective to understand the concept of slavery.Not saying whether it is right or wrong.
You & I do not live under a feudal system any longer and this must be considered when
trying to understand the mentality of the past.Did you know that the native Americans would not submit to slavery, in the U.S.
but, in fact, enslaved one another in their ancient societies? -
It is wrong.
Peace Shadowpuppet,
That's true. However, we have a responsibility as enlightened people not to look back on the history of our species and say, "Well, things were different back then. People thought differently." The Americans are always doing this to make excuses for their idols. For example, they love George Washington and Thomas Jefferson so much that they blind themselves to the fact that both were slave-owning, misogynistic aristocrats. How many times did Jefferson get his slaves pregnant? It's not something in the schoolbooks because they continually enjoin us to remember that "things were just different back then".
I know you don't think slavery was ever right. My question is with regard to how slavery fits into the framework of righteousness outlined by the Quran. Why does the Quran say that freeing slaves is good, but not address the matter of how it's bad to have slaves to begin with. Indeed, it says slavery sucks (1675), but doesn't set a prohibition on it.
Peace,
-David
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Did you know that the native Americans would not submit to slavery, in the U.S.
but, in fact, enslaved one another in their ancient societies?In fact, in the native flood epic... it was white people who were subservient to the red people.
So my point is not to determine the right or wrong but to simply present the bigger picture,
that we might better understand how "slavery" fits into Quranic concept.Human civilisation is not in the same mode as was back then, at least where I am concerned.
We're at a pivotal point in our history and do not live under the same circumstances as our ancestors did
and we must take these circumstances into account when trying interpret any part of the Quran.That is the only answer I can give.
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Peace,
I sort of buy the argument that it would be too revolutionary to have outright banned slavery. Yet, the verses in the Quran do make it easy to make the case to later ban slavery as a society. For example...
Did we not show him the two paths? He should choose the difficult path. Which one is the difficult path? The freeing of slaves. Feeding, during the time of hardship...
Also, I think our idea of slavery is different than the one prescribed by the Quran. This is not a relationship of abuse.
Also, I do not think that believing slaves were the only ones freed. The verse I cited says nothing about it and neither do most verses.
Salaam
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Peace brothers and sisters,
Peace
QUESTIONS
- Why doesn't the Quran flat-out abolish slavery?
Your question is loaded and misleading. Define slavery. Why did you try to include maids/servants in your definition and then back off? Is a thief or a debtor who is "forced" to work to pay back his victim/creditor, a slave?
You said
"So basically
- It's okay to own people if they commit a crime, and it's okay to put them to work."
Then you said "Plainly, owning humans is wrong. In any capacity, owning a human being is wrong."
So obviously you don't think any form of "slavery" or forced labour can be justified. Maybe it is you and your ethical theories that are wrong, has that occured to you?
- Human dignity doesn't apply fully to unbelievers. Believers should be freed first.
Yeah that's right, God does not view believers and unbelievers equally. Did you not grasp that in your quranic "studies"? And what does "human dignity" have to do with anything?
- The Quran "eventually" abolishes slavery...
I agree with you here, the "economy" argument is pathetic. This is simply an argument made by modernists, surreptitiously borrowed, from Muhammad Asad's notes in his translation of the quran. There is no reason to believe that the quran "gradually abolishes slavery", anymore than it gradually abolishes
killing. Killing, like forced labour/slavery, can be either justified or unjustified depending on the context.As for "an agreed upon 'slave'", that also would not be slavery, that would be some kind of psychotic relationship.
Really? Psychotic? The master/disciple relationship is quite normal in all societies, and as you say it's not "slavery" so why would it be a big deal?
If someone is crazy enough to agree to be owned by another human being, they're free to do so.
Do you really believe that? No you don't (see below).
However, a just society would have clinical treatments for such unfortunate people,
"a just society" what exactly does that mean?? is that a euphemism for the state?? or are private individuals going to go around determining who is "unfortunate" and who is not? Either way though, you clearly believe that anybody you deem to be "unfortunate" must receive treatment. So you are in fact pro slavery, you're just using this topic as a smokescreen for your unbelief. Well done!
...and a just person would never agree, "Okay, Bob, I'll be your master. You'll be my slave. Whatever you say, Bob". That's sick.
Again, who gets the privilege of determing who is a "just" person, and who is not?? More importantly, why do you care? You just said it's not slavery!!
Our species has evolved enough, socially, to understand this.
Obviously the irony of your absurd statement escapes you. The level of public, private and corporate debt in the Western world has defacto put the population in bondage to the creditors, this is what you call social evolution! And we don't even need to address the non western world on this issue.
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peace David,
It seems your misunderstanding is stemming from the terms "owned" (which does not exist in your verse references except perhaps 1675) and "slave" (which you have not defined as per AQ). Please review this info and let us know your findings.
Also, the link I referenced clearly mentions freeing of slaves, and does not mention their belief. The difference between when it is mentioned and when it is not may yield some extra insight with regard to the reason behind the freeing.
I say perhaps in 1675 because it is in the passive form, meaning the object/person receives the action expressed in the verb, i.e. slave receives control/command. I have not studied it though.
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Yet, the verses in the Quran do make it easy to make the case to later ban slavery as a society.
Yes, this is how I have seen the Quran, in many aspects...
It provides rules of conduct for a certain historic influx of culture and society, yet provides
a path for growth as well, in its way of directing human affairs. -
peace,
I agree with you here, the "economy" argument is pathetic. This is simply an argument made by modernists, surreptitiously borrowed, from Muhammad Asad's notes in his translation of the quran. There is no reason to believe that the quran "gradually abolishes slavery", anymore than it gradually abolishes
killing. Killing, like forced labour/slavery, can be either justified or unjustified depending on the context.If we assume AQ is revealed in a situation where slaves exist and people have them, and if AQ does not provide a way of gaining more slaves, and it discusses freeing them individually and collectively, raises their status, rebukes those who do not give them their due rights etc, then the only conclusion is it would eventually lead to abolishing slavery. To disprove this, you'd have to find a reference from AQ in which it tells us how to acquire new slaves.
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Peace Hoppean, everyone,
Define slavery.
Let's go by the definition in the Quran. I began my question with the definition given in the Quran in 26/22. The Quran talks extensively about Pharaoh owning the descendants of Israel, right? Moses told Pharaoh two clear things 1) "Let the descendants of Israel go", and 2) "You enslaved them!"
26/17 "Send us with the descendants of Israel."
26/18 He said, "Did we not raise you amongst us as a child, and you stayed among us prospering for years?"
26/22 "That was a favor that you blessed me with, (but) you enslaved the descendants of Israel!"So, slavery is morally objectionable. In fact, it's disgusting. Moses was able to see this how many thousands of years ago, brother?
But clearly the prophet and his people had slaves. The only explanations offered are these
- Slavery isn't really bad.
- Slavery is bad, but the Quran makes it go away after a period of time by encouraging the release of slaves.
That doesn't cut it. Keeping people in bondage to let the economy adjust isn't right.
Any other theories?
Peace,
-David
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Peace Wakas, everyone,
peace David,
It seems your misunderstanding is stemming from ... "slave" (which you have not defined as per AQ). Please review this info and let us know your findings.26/17 "Send us with the descendants of Israel."
26/18 He said, "Did we not raise you amongst us as a child, and you stayed among us prospering for years?"
26/22 "That was a favor that you blessed me with, (but) you enslaved the descendants of Israel!"So Pharaoh owning the Hebrews and putting them to work was flat out wrong, and Moses throws it in Pharaoh's face with good reason.
So why, thousands of years after Moses, did the prophet and the believers have slaves? Please help me answer this question.
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Because a prophet does not assume the role of a conquering Emperor.
However, there were many in existence, long before and after his time on Earth.
The last Pharaoh died only 2, 000 years ago.Mostly what we see around us, in Western culture, is the remains of Greco-Roman and Egyptian based rule...
and that which those societies were based on.We do what turns a buck and keeps society in motion, ultimately.
You can't interpret an ancient world with the rules of today. It just doesn't work.And who is to say that his servants were not treated like kings and queens?
No one who was "anyone" back then ...was without servants. Their word wasn't worth much to the masses.Perhaps he was serving as a proper model for what a ruler should be.
He thought of himself as Al Lah's "slave" ...which is actually pretty defiant, if you think about it
from the viewpoint of an oppressor or one who opposes oppression.Peace be upon him.
