Non-muslims in Jannah?

you_gunna_eat_that

Well taking your own referenced verse

Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians,

whoever of them

believes in God and the Last Day and does good works;

they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve. (262)

which clearly supports my contention - further corroborated by other Qur'an verses - that belief as well as deeds is essential for Jews/Christians/Sabians to enter the garden of bliss as opposed to their being thrown into hell.

I have further argued, with ample Qur'anic references, that "belief" necessarily encompasses belief in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an.

Don't you like the idea of a Christian mushrik like Mother Theresa who devoted her life to helping the poor being chucked into hell? That's the way it is according to the book of Allah I am afraid.

Peace again

First of all, what translation have you chosen for 262. I have never seen it translated as "from those" immediately before it describes others who may get in heaven such as those who believe in God, the last day and does good.
Also, I just want to drive the point home that this verse is not limiting. It never says only these folks will get in. Finally, this verse says nothing about believing in the prophet or the divine texts. Thus, non Muslims as we have defined them can go to heaven as indicated by this verse. This was the original debate.
Peace

DH

It has nothing to do with not liking that idea, I simply don't believe it.

So you don't believe Allah when he says in his book, the Qur'an, that people like mother Theresa who subscribe to such doctrines as the holy trinity and Jesus being the son of Allah are mushrik kafirs?

DH

Salaam,

First...
The question is, where is it clearly implied in that verse or elsewhere in the Qur'an that those who "submit" without belief will go anywhere but hell?

Well in the verse, it is said that these are submitters who do not believe. Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the only way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.

The only way? Surely, Allah states that he rewards people in THIS world eg

And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah the term is fixed; and whoever desires the reward of this world, I shall give him of it, and whoever desires the reward of the hereafter I shall give him of it, and I will reward the grateful. (3145)

So which is more plausible?

Allah may furnish Kafir "submitters" with worldly rewards for certain deeds yet still refuse them admission to paradise for their kufr
Allah may allow Kafir "submitters" into the garden despite numerous unambiguous statements throughout the Qur'an that he will burn disbelievers in hell for nothing more than their disbelief
????

Further, you have yet to bring positive evidence for your argument thatthose who submit but don't believe will go to hell.

What would constitute "positive evidence" in your eyes?

Next you say...
Says you without any justification whatsoever.

Arguments please...

It is up to you to provide arguments in support of your assertions otherwise the charge of "without justification" is utterly valid.

Next you say...
The following ayats amply demonstrate that this is indeed the case, however much you may wish otherwise
You are the best of the nations raised up for men; you

enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong
and
believe in Allah;
and if the peoples of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them are believers but most of them are transgressors.(3110)

004.047
O you People of the Book! believe in what We have revealed, confirming what was with you, before We change the face and fame of some beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. (447)

If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss. (565)

The Kafirs, among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein. They are the worst of creatures. (986)

What can you bring from the Qur'an to counter the clear message of these verses that Jews,Christians or anybody else who disbelieves is going on a one-way trip to a very hot place - however much they superficially "submit"?

First of all, I think we should go one or two verses per post. This will add more depth to our analysis and it will help me respond to all you have to say.

Secondly, you are working from your definition of belief here, which i feel you lack ample warrant for.

What do you understand as being my definition of "belief"?

Finally, I want to reexplain one of my points. None of these verses are limiting. This means that none of them say "only these" people will get into heaven.

You have provided not one single verse which explicitly states that disbelievers who nevertheless "submit" WILL or even MAY go to heaven or Will NOT go to hell. This is because no such verse exists in the Qur'an. Therefore, other verses in the Qur'an must be referred to to find out which is the most plausible scenario. I have provided numerous Koranic quotes that clearly state "Kafirs will burn in hell". You have provided not ONE that explicitly states "Kafirs will/may not burn in hell if they fulfil certain conditions". The weight of the overall evidence is therefore 0% in your favor and 100% in mine.

Thus, there is no explicit or implicit contradiction between these verses and those that say other groups of people not mentioned here will go to heaven.
Peace

A flawed conclusion arrived at through flawed logic.

DH

First of all, what translation have you chosen for 262. I have never seen it translated as "from those" immediately before it describes others who may get in heaven such as those who believe in God, the last day and does good.

I merely copied and pasted the translation furnished by Leyna in her first post on this thread. If you have a problem with it take it up with her.

Also, I just want to drive the point home that this verse is not limiting. It never says only these folks will get in.

See my previous post regarding this "argument"

Thus, non Muslims as we have defined them can go to heaven as indicated by this verse. This was the original debate.

Sorry, remind me of how "we" have defined "non-Muslims"?

you_gunna_eat_that

Salaam,

First you say...
"The only way? Surely, Allah states that he rewards people in THIS world eg
And a soul will not die but with the permission of Allah the term is fixed; and whoever desires the reward of this world, I shall give him of it, and whoever desires the reward of the hereafter I shall give him of it, and I will reward the grateful. (3145)
So which is more plausible?

Allah may furnish Kafir "submitters" with worldly rewards for certain deeds yet still refuse them admission to paradise for their kufr
Allah may allow Kafir "submitters" into the garden despite numerous unambiguous statements throughout the Qur'an that he will burn disbelievers in hell for nothing more than their disbelief
????"

The verse 4914 itself does not say that the deeds will only be rewarded on this earth. I guess you can interpret it that way though; God will give these submitters rewards on earth for their good deeds but they will be burnt in hell when they die.
My question to God then would be what changed? These submitters who did not have the faith to call themselves believers could still be rewarded on earth even though they are about to be thrown in hell. Shouldn't the punishment have had its effect even in the worldly life since it is so bad that it warrants hellfire?

Next...
"What would constitute "positive evidence" in your eyes?"

Tell me why your definition of disbelief, which includes mere utterance is correct.

Next...
"What do you understand as being my definition of "belief"?"

The important part is that I think it includes merely uttering words of disbelief.

Next...
"You have provided not one single verse, which explicitly states that disbelievers who nevertheless "submit" WILL or even MAY go to heaven or Will NOT go to hell. This is because no such verse exists in the Qur'an. Therefore, other verses in the Qur'an must be referred to to find out which is the most plausible scenario. I have provided numerous Koranic quotes that clearly state "Kafirs will burn in hell". You have provided not ONE that explicitly states "Kafirs will/may not burn in hell if they fulfil certain conditions". The weight of the overall evidence is therefore 0% in your favor and 100% in mine."

Well thats probably because I never said kafirs who submit will go to heaven. Its shocking that at this stage you still can not get my argument right. I have said submitters will go to heaven and submitters do not have to believe as indicated by the verse 4913 we are discussing above. Just because they do not believe does not make them kafirs though. Maybe your confusion is you assume anyone who does not believe is a kafir and thus you quite nicely have showed me many verses saying kafirs are going to hell. Yet, consider that babies and many animals do not have beliefs. By the assumption that anyone who does not believe is a kafir, babies and animals are kafirs and babies who die before they grow cognitive faculties are destined to hell.

I believe there are other categories of people (i.e. submitters) who are not kafirs and who will not go to hell. But let me know what you think. Are babies who lack beliefs disbelievers on their way to hell?

Also, all those nice verses about kafirs you showed me, I have never denied one of them. Rather, our difference is in interpretation. I work from a different defintion of kafir. So, all this 'evidence' you have brought me has really amounted to nothing.

Finally you say...
A flawed conclusion arrived at through flawed logic.

Funny...

Peace

you_gunna_eat_that

So you don't believe Allah when he says in his book, the Qur'an, that people like mother Theresa who subscribe to such doctrines as the holy trinity and Jesus being the son of Allah are mushrik kafirs?

Peace

I don't know about Leyna but I just don't believe you...

DH

Never claimed it did. It establishes the principle that Allah rewards people in this world as well as the hereafter and therefore refutes your above statement Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the ONLY way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.

I guess you can interpret it that way though; God will give these submitters rewards on earth for their good deeds but they will be burnt in hell when they die. My question to God then would be what changed? These submitters who did not have the faith to call themselves believers could still be rewarded on earth even though they are about to be thrown in hell. Shouldn't the punishment have had its effect even in the worldly life since it is so bad that it warrants hellfire?

In the verse about the desert Arabs Allah talks about belief having not YET entered into their hearts. So he is obviously allowing time for this to happen. In the meantime they may receive worldly rewards like a share of the booty taken from those with whom the Muslims are at war if they participate in campaigns. If the desert Arabs nevertheless persist in disbelief to the end of their days then there is absolutely no Qur'anic justification for your contention that they could go anywhere but hell.

Next...
"What would constitute "positive evidence" in your eyes?"

Tell me why your definition of disbelief, which includes mere utterance is correct.

I have already done so.

Next...
"What do you understand as being my definition of "belief"?"

The important part is that I think it includes merely uttering words of disbelief.

It does include that, and I have provided qur'anic reference to back this up. Want some more?

Next...
"You have provided not one single verse, which explicitly states that disbelievers who nevertheless "submit" WILL or even MAY go to heaven or Will NOT go to hell. This is because no such verse exists in the Qur'an. Therefore, other verses in the Qur'an must be referred to to find out which is the most plausible scenario. I have provided numerous Koranic quotes that clearly state "Kafirs will burn in hell". You have provided not ONE that explicitly states "Kafirs will/may not burn in hell if they fulfil certain conditions". The weight of the overall evidence is therefore 0% in your favor and 100% in mine."

Well thats probably because I never said kafirs who submit will go to heaven.

What exactly do you think constitutes a "Kafir" in the eyes of Allah?

Just because they do not believe does not make them kafirs though.

Provide some Qur'anic corroboration for this claim.

I believe there are other categories of people (i.e. submitters) who are not kafirs and who will not go to hell.

And an ambiguous statement in a single verse of the Qur'an is the only "evidence" you have provided to support this view.

But let me know what you think. Are babies who lack beliefs disbelievers on their way to hell?

I cannot think of any reason why such babies would not be so destined. Can you?

DH

Peace

I don't know about Leyna but I just don't believe you...

You don't believe that those who say things like "Jesus is the son of God" are mushrik kafirs then?

savage_carrot

Are babies who lack beliefs disbelievers on their way to hell?

I cannot think of any reason why such babies would not be so destined. Can you?

In order to disbelieve, you have to have the capacity to understand what not to believe in.

DH

In order to disbelieve, you have to have the capacity to understand what not to believe in.

Which babies don't generally have - unlike full-grown adults like the desert Arabs mentioned in verse 4914 who have, furthermore, been made aware of the messenger of Allah and the Qur'an and have disbelieved in it. Therefore YGET's attempt to equate "disbelief" with the "lack of belief" of babies is tendentious.

So why do you think Allah seemingly takes the lives of babies before they develop the capacity to understand what to believe in? Furthermore, why does he often inflict terrible pain and suffering on them before he does this?

savage_carrot

His attempt stemmed from his understanding that disbelievers are different from those who lack belief due to different reasons. Whether that involves lack of adequate development or someone born on an isolated island somewhere who has no idea of who the prophet or the quran is. They are not the same. There was no reason to ask if he could think of any reason why babies who lack the capacity to understand would not be so destined for hell when it's clear you need to be a "disbeliever" to earn that badge.

I have further argued, with ample Qur'anic references, that "belief" necessarily encompasses belief in the prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an.
So according to you, the people who do not know of the "prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an" let alone even what a book even is are all disbelievers destined for hell?

*edit to add

So why do you think Allah seemingly takes the lives of babies before they develop the capacity to understand what to believe in? Furthermore, why does he often inflict terrible pain and suffering on them before he does this?
What relevance does this have to the topic of disbelievers? Are you trying to equate the two, I hope not?

DH

His attempt stemmed from his understanding that disbelievers are different from those who lack belief due to different reasons.

YGEA, has been arguing that verse 4914 establishes a principle that people who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of Qur'an can nevertheless avoid hell if they "submit". Do you agree with this?

Whether that involves lack of adequate development

What do you mean by "lack of adequate development"?

So according to you, the people who do not know of the "prophethood of Muhammad and the divine origin of al-Qur'an" let alone even what a book even is are all disbelievers destined for hell?

Why otherwise would Allah bother to send messengers "as a mercy" to bring people back to belief in him alone? Why do that if he is willing to allow countless people who commit shirk and all sorts of sins in ignorance into the garden?

So why do you think Allah seemingly takes the lives of babies before they develop the capacity to understand what to believe in? Furthermore, why does he often inflict terrible pain and suffering on them before he does this?

What relevance does this have to the topic of disbelievers? Are you trying to equate the two, I hope not?

YGEA brought up the irrelevent subject of babies in order to bolster his "interpretation" of verse 4914 by leading me to concede "well if innocent babies who have never believed can avoid hell so can other people like the desert Arabs mentioned in verse 4914". It is obvious what he is up to. Even if newborn babies who have never believed DID avoid hell, it does not logically follow that adults who have committed all sorts of sins in the sight of Allah will do so. He brought up the subject of babies so I expanded on it by asking what I did with the intention of neutralizing his line of argument.

savage_carrot

YGEA, has been arguing that verse 4914 establishes a principle that people who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of Qur'an can nevertheless avoid hell if they "submit". Do you agree with this?
Difference between Al-Muslimeen and Al-Momineen
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13499.0
http//free-minds.org/node/10

What do you mean by "lack of adequate development"?
Babies, people with damaged, under developed faculties etc

Why otherwise would Allah bother to send messengers "as a mercy" to bring people back to belief in him alone? Why do that if he is willing to allow countless people who commit shirk and all sorts of sins in ignorance into the garden?
Why didn't you touch upon the subject of the isolated island guy who doesn't know of Mohammad or the quran? Is he a disbeliever if he does good works and even believes in one God?

YGEA brought up the irrelevent subject of babies in order to bolster his "interpretation" of verse 4914 by leading me to concede "well if innocent babies who have never believed can avoid hell so can other people like the desert Arabs mentioned in verse 4914". It is obvious what he is up to. Even if newborn babies who have never believed DID avoid hell, it does not logically follow that adults who have committed all sorts of sins in the sight of Allah will do so. He brought up the subject of babies so I expanded on it by asking what I did with the intention of neutralizing his line of argument.
Even if/DID avoid hell is incorrect, will avoid hell because they are innocent of wrong doing and God does not punish the innocent. Adults who deserve to go to hell will go to hell, yes.

you_gunna_eat_that

Peace,
I'm a bit busy so I will come up with a full response later.
Still, I have to ask again since I might be confused but do you think babies, the mentally handicapped, people stuck on islands with no communication with others, etc will go to hell since they do not believe?

DH

YGEA, has been arguing that verse 4914 establishes a principle that people who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of Qur'an can nevertheless avoid hell if they "submit". Do you agree with this?

"Difference between Al-Muslimeen and Al-Momineen
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13499.0
http//free-minds.org/node/10

I can't find any answer at these links as to whether YOU agree with YGEA that people who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of Qur'an can nevertheless avoid hell if they "submit". Please commit yourself to a position on this. Thanks

Why otherwise would Allah bother to send messengers "as a mercy" to bring people back to belief in him alone? Why do that if he is willing to allow countless people who commit shirk and all sorts of sins in ignorance into the garden?

Why didn't you touch upon the subject of the isolated island guy who doesn't know of Mohammad or the quran? Is he a disbeliever if he does good works and even believes in one God?

A true follower of the prophet Jesus living on an isolated island who was following the pristine unadulterated message sent down to his prophet would not be regarded as a hell-bound disbeliever by Allah. Indeed, he would be regarded as a "Muslim" so would not be an example of non-Muslims avoiding jannah. The same is true for the true follower of any other prophet before Jesus. The answer to your question must therefore be no. However, such would be obliged to recognize the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of the Qur'an once they had been made aware of it. Failure to do so would place them in the category of Kafirs. Do you take issue with this?

Now please answer MY above question of why Allah would bother sending messengers "as a mercy" if he is willing to allow into the garden countless people who do wrong in ignorance.

Even if DID avoid hell is incorrect, will avoid hell because they are innocent of wrong doing and God does not punish the innocent.

If he does not "punish the innocent" why then does he often inflict terrible suffering on apparently innocent babies before taking them from this world?

Adults who deserve to go to hell will go to hell, yes.

Which you agree, contrary to YGEA's claims, includes people who once they have become aware of the prophet Muhammad fail to believe in him and the divine origin of al-Qur'an however much they may "submit" in terms of their outward conduct?

DH

I'm a bit busy so I will come up with a full response later.
Still, I have to ask again since I might be confused but do you think babies, the mentally handicapped, people stuck on islands with no communication with others, etc will go to hell since they do not believe?

I have dealt with these matters in my above reply to savage carrot. Even if mentally handicapped people etc did avoid hell, this does not in the slightest bolster your claim that the "submission" of the desert Arabs in verse 4914 - who HAVE been made aware of Muhammad and Qur'an - will alone save them from hell if they die in disbelief nor establish a general principle applicable to people in general.

savage_carrot

I can't find any answer at these links as to whether YOU agree with YGEA that people who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of Qur'an can nevertheless avoid hell if they "submit". Please commit yourself to a position on this. Thanks
Do you know the difference between a Muslim and a Mumin?

A true follower of the prophet Jesus living on an isolated island who was following the pristine unadulterated message sent down to his prophet would not be regarded as a hell-bound disbeliever by Allah. Indeed, he would be regarded as a "Muslim" so would not be an example of non-Muslims avoiding jannah. The same is true for the true follower of any other prophet before Jesus. The answer to your question must therefore be no. However, such would be obliged to recognize the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of the Qur'an once they had been made aware of it. Failure to do so would place them in the category of Kafirs. Do you take issue with this?
Why did you insist on adding a prophet in the example? Is it impossible for someone to believe in God and do good works if he doesn't know a prophet/messengerperson?

Now please answer MY above question of why Allah would bother sending messengers "as a mercy" if he is willing to allow into the garden countless people who do wrong in ignorance.
Those who reject and do wrong consistently will go to hell as we are told. We are not ignorant of God as the signs are all around us and inside us, it does not necessitate a messenger/prophet. To submit we have to believe in God and do good works. Please read the links.

If he does not "punish the innocent" why then does he often inflict terrible suffering on apparently innocent babies before taking them from this world?
So you are implying that babies are not innocent and that is why he inflicts terrible suffering on "apparently" innocent babies when they die. Tell me, what wrong doing have babies done then? How are they not innocent? Do all babies suffer terribly before dying? Does anyone who suffers terribly not innocent? A believer cannot suffer terribly? Where are you getting all this from?

Which you agree, contrary to YGEA's claims, includes people who once they have become aware of the prophet Muhammad fail to believe in him and the divine origin of al-Qur'an however much they may "submit" in terms of their outward conduct?
Read the links.

DH

Do you know the difference between a Muslim and a Mumin?

Let's get the semantic hairsplitting out the way then A "Muslim" is "one who submits" a "Mumin" is "One who believes". Although the verse on the desert Arabs suggests that one may superficially "submit" to a certain extent without belief this does not constitute proof, as YGET claims, that one may thereby avoid hell if one does not get round to actually believing before they die. You haven't really answered my question as to whether you agree with YGET on this. Do you? Furthermore, a true "believer" IS according to the Qur'an necessarily a "Muslim". Or do you deny this?

Why did you insist on adding a prophet in the example? Is it impossible for someone to believe in God and do good works if he doesn't know a prophet/messengerperson?

According to the Qur'an mankind was sent a succession of messengers who told them to worship Allah alone. Thus "belief in God" is a product of prophethood. Therefore, according to the logic of the book of Allah, it is NOT possible for someone to believe in ALLAH AND do good works if he or his people have not at some point been informed of the existence of Allah by a prophet. It is of course possible for someone to DISBELIVE in god and do good works like helping the poor. However such people - atheists - will, according to the Qur'an, go to hell for their disbelief in Allah.

We are not ignorant of God as the signs are all around us and inside us, it does not necessitate a messenger/prophet.

If it is possible to "know god" without the intervention of messengers/prophets Why did Allah bother to send a succession of them then? Why did he send Muhammad?

To submit we have to believe in God AND do good works.

To be a full "submitter" yes. But how do you know that?

So you are implying that babies are not innocent and that is why he inflicts terrible suffering on "apparently" innocent babies when they die.

No I am implying that if Allah inflicts suffering and death on to all intents and purposes innocent babies, I cannot see why he would not also inflict terrible suffering on them in the hereafter. Can you?

Tell me, what wrong doing have babies done then?

I guess only Allah really knows that one. The only other reason I can think of is that Allah is some kind of sadist who revels in causing suffering to babies and their parents. Indeed, Allah says Let neither their wealth nor their children please you. Through these Allah seeks to punish them in this life (955)

How are they not innocent?

If they are not innocent the answer is with Allah.

Do all babies suffer terribly before dying?

No. So?

Does anyone who suffers terribly not innocent?

Maybe they have done, said or thought something that is not apparent to us but Allah knows all about and is mightily annoyed at.

A believer cannot suffer terribly?

Maybe they can. And if Allah can inflict terrible pain and suffering in this life on his most devoted slaves, why could he not kill babies and then punish them forever for dying in a state of non-belief?

savage_carrot

Let's get the semantic hairsplitting out the way then A "Muslim" is "one who submits" a "Mumin" is "One who believes". Although the verse on the desert Arabs suggests that one may superficially "submit" to a certain extent without belief this does not constitute proof, as YGET claims, that one may thereby avoid hell if one does not get round to actually believing before they die. You haven't really answered my question as to whether you agree with YGET on this. Do you? Furthermore, a true "believer" IS according to the Qur'an necessarily a "Muslim". Or do you deny this?
Look, I'm not YGET all right...? Stop asking me if I believe in what YGET believes in constantly, I'm not his tag team partner, thank you. I haven't read all posts by most members here anyways, if you're okay discussing what I brought up based on what posts I read, that's fine. All mumins would be muslims but not all muslims are mumin http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13499.105

According to the Qur'an mankind was sent a succession of messengers who told them to worship Allah alone. Thus "belief in God" is a product of prophethood. Therefore, according to the logic of the book of Allah, it is NOT possible for someone to believe in ALLAH AND do good works if he or his people have not at some point been informed of the existence of Allah by a prophet. It is of course possible for someone to DISBELIVE in god and do good works like helping the poor. However such people - atheists - will, according to the Qur'an, go to hell for their disbelief in Allah.
You are trying to tie together different things and arriving at an erroneous and forced conclusion. Reminders by the very meaning of the word means to help them remember. The signs are around us and in ourselves. Belief in God is having faith/deducing that God exists (like in the example of Abraham) and one doesn't need a prophet/messenger to sell a product called "belief in God". People can believe in God and do good works without knowing of a messenger/prophet.

If it is possible to "know god" without the intervention of messengers/prophets Why did Allah bother to send a succession of them then? Why did he send Muhammad?
As a reminder and a mercy. Doesn't mean it is not possible to "know god" without such reminders for some and for others it is a mercy for those that need reminding. Once again, "belief in god" is not a limited exclusive product for messengers/prophets to sell.

To be a full "submitter" yes. But how do you know that?
There is no full/partial here. You either submit or you don't. What is this halfway house you're setting up here?

No I am implying that if Allah inflicts suffering and death on to all intents and purposes innocent babies, I cannot see why he would not also inflict terrible suffering on them in the hereafter. Can you?
I guess only Allah really knows that one. The only other reason I can think of is that Allah is some kind of sadist who revels in causing suffering to babies and their parents. Indeed, Allah says Let neither their wealth nor their children please you. Through these Allah seeks to punish them in this life (955)
If they are not innocent the answer is with Allah.
No, what is with these erroneous forced conclusions? You implied in your previous posts that babies are disbelievers and that is why God punishes them with suffering and death. You're still going with the same implication here. I asked you does suffering and death mean someone is a disbeliever? You concede later in this post that God can let terrible pain and suffering occur on even his most devoted slaves (believers like job). Thus suffering, pain and death cannot be used to "determine" someones believing or disbelieving status. End of.
Next, if you think God is a sadist you apparently haven't read and understood the quran that tells us in no uncertain terms that God is just and merciful and does not punish the innocent etc. God cannot be a sadist which means inflicting suffering, pain and cruelty for no reason but gratification. End of this line of argument as well.

Maybe they can. And if Allah can inflict terrible pain and suffering in this life on his most devoted slaves, why could he not kill babies and then punish them forever for dying in a state of non-belief?
Where is your sense of logic? God controls life and death. He brings into the world a baby, innocent of any wrong doing because they do not even have the capacity to understand wrong or right, makes them suffer terribly and kills them. And we are supposed to believe these are "kafir" babies, which are going to suffer pain and suffering in hell as well even though they didn't stand a chance for believing or unbelieving because they couldn't as they didn't even have the capacity to! If this is your idea of "maybe God might do this" it's way off base.

I've noticed you tend to bring in maybe's and if's when we know for a fact that these maybe's and if's contradict what the quran says. Please stick to a solid logical line of argument.

you_gunna_eat_that

Peace

Just so you know, I do not agree with some stuff Savage Carrot says so do not consider him my "tag team partner" as he so eloquently put it.

Never claimed it did. It establishes the principle that Allah rewards people in this world as well as the hereafter and therefore refutes your above statement Further it says Allah will still reward them there deeds. If this is the case, then clearly they may avoid hell even though they do not believe since this is the ONLY way a person's positive deeds could be rewarded.

In the verse about the desert Arabs Allah talks about belief having not YET entered into their hearts. So he is obviously allowing time for this to happen. In the meantime they may receive worldly rewards like a share of the booty taken from those with whom the Muslims are at war if they participate in campaigns. If the desert Arabs nevertheless persist in disbelief to the end of their days then there is absolutely no Qur'anic justification for your contention that they could go anywhere but hell.

I hate to get all 4th gradish but I never claimed that you claimed that the verse only specifies rewards on Earth. The point I was trying to make by saying this is that the verse does not specify that the deeds will only be rewarded in our worldly lives. Thus, I am within my rights to assume that the verse includes deeds rewarded in the afterlife, assuming this view is consistent with the rest of the Quran, which I believe it is.

Concerning your interpretation, I retain my contention of consistency. If nonbelief (not disbelief), is so bad that in your opinion it warrants eternal punishment regardless of good deeds, it would be amazingly inconsistent to say nonbelievers can still be rewarded for there deeds on earth. In fact earlier in the debate, you brought me a verse and your interpretation of it was that God will not reward disbelievers good deeds at any time.
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Say "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-"Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works? They are those who deny the Signs of their Lord and the fact of their having to meet Him (in the Hereafter) VAIN will be their WORKS, NOR SHALL WE, ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT, GIVE THEM ANY WEIGHT. That is their reward, HELL, because they rejected Faith, and took My Signs and My Messengers by way of jest.
As in the case of those before you they were mightier than you in power, and more flourishing in wealth and children. They had their enjoyment of their portion and ye have of yours, as did those before you; and ye indulge in idle talk as they did. They! - their work are fruitless in this world and in the Hereafter, and they will lose (all spiritual good). S. 969 Yusuf Ali

My interpretation of these verses were different but that's not important. What's important is that now you are telling me these nomads will be rewarded of there deeds on earth even though you think they are disbelievers. Yet you told me earlier that disbelievers will not be rewarded at all any where. You have to drop one of your interpretations.

YGEA, has been arguing that verse 4914 establishes a principle that people who do not believe in the prophethood of Muhammad and divine origin of Qur'an can nevertheless avoid hell if they "submit". Do you agree with this?

What do you mean by "lack of adequate development"?

Why otherwise would Allah bother to send messengers "as a mercy" to bring people back to belief in him alone? Why do that if he is willing to allow countless people who commit shirk and all sorts of sins in ignorance into the garden?

YGEA brought up the irrelevent subject of babies in order to bolster his "interpretation" of verse 4914 by leading me to concede "well if innocent babies who have never believed can avoid hell so can other people like the desert Arabs mentioned in verse 4914". It is obvious what he is up to. Even if newborn babies who have never believed DID avoid hell, it does not logically follow that adults who have committed all sorts of sins in the sight of Allah will do so. He brought up the subject of babies so I expanded on it by asking what I did with the intention of neutralizing his line of argument.

I would just like to clarify again, there are plenty of other verses that say that those who believe in God, the last Day, and do Good will go to heaven. This grouping can potentially include those who deny the prophethood and the Quran since they can still believe in God and the last day and do good. You have retorted with Quranic verses that say stuff like those who follow the signs, etc will go to heaven. I have responded that none of these verses are limiting. They do not say these are the only people that will go to heaven. I didn't need the nomad verse to argue Quranically that those who do not believe in the prophethood and the quran can still go to heaven.

On the other hand, I think the nomad verse gives us a new grouping in the world. A category of people outside of both the believers and the kafirs.
That was the purpose of the baby question. I wanted to show you the futility of just splitting the world into two groups (kafirs and believers). You have disregarded this by saying babies, the mentally handicapped, and those who have not received the message will go to hell. This is just abominable to the senses and I don't need an argument to know that you are wrong here.

But the important part of this is it seems to be the source of much of your confusion. You have been assuming this whole debate that I am arguing that kafirs will get into heaven, since anyone who does not believe is a kafir in your eyes. Yet, this criteria turns out to be fallacious when you see that there are many who don't believe because they have not heard the message or are babies, etc. Does this make them disbelievers? No...

On the otherhand, I have argued that disbelief is a matter of action and heart. It is not just cheap words. Again, the nomads do not magically become believers when they say "We believe" and logically, this should be the same if they say "We disbelieve." Thus, disbelief has to be something more than just saying something or not believing. So, just because I say the Muslims in the specified verse are not believers, that does not mean I think they are kafirs and that I am arguing that they should go to heaven as such. Instead, I think that they have not disbelieved through mind and might nor have they believed through mind and might. Yet, they may submit to Allah's laws and still be protected in my opinion.

Peace