sex before marriage
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Peace
Even if we assume this, who would be qualified for such exposure other than the wife?
2431 is a weaker version of this premise, women should not sexually flaunt themselves except to those whom it is permitted (i.e. husbands) and to those who don't see them in a sexual light anyway.
Anyhow, the main reason I'm posting here is to make a point;
The language is very important here. The quran uses perfectly precise wording everywhere in the book (I noticed this in its description of the universe) and all subtlety is accounted for and no less should be demanded of a book from the omnipotent. So if it says "keep covered their private parts" and not "abstain from sex" then it MEANS "keep covered their private parts" and NOT "abstain from sex". However one must then connect this logically to other verses, indeed "keep covered their private parts" can obviously mean "abstain from sex" in whatever cases.
In this manner, all cases are accounted for. If we immediately attach connotations to a phrase in the quran, we set ourselves up for failure as demonstrated by 1300 years of prolonged irrationality. Thus, every statement in the quran should be taken exactly as it is and then cross referenced to deduce the correct laws ordained by the almighty. You will know when you're on the right track when you stop capitalising random words and leaving others untranslated.
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Peace
Even if we assume this, who would be qualified for such exposure other than the wife?
MMA, who you can already have a "relaxed" dress code around. Maybe MMA means female servants or maids?
2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
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2431 is a weaker version of this premise, women should not sexually flaunt themselves except to those whom it is permitted (i.e. husbands) and to those who don't see them in a sexual light anyway.
Anyhow, the main reason I'm posting here is to make a point;
The language is very important here. The quran uses perfectly precise wording everywhere in the book (I noticed this in its description of the universe) and all subtlety is accounted for and no less should be demanded of a book from the omnipotent. So if it says "keep covered their private parts" and not "abstain from sex" then it MEANS "keep covered their private parts" and NOT "abstain from sex". However one must then connect this logically to other verses, indeed "keep covered their private parts" can obviously mean "abstain from sex" in whatever cases.
In this manner, all cases are accounted for. If we immediately attach connotations to a phrase in the quran, we set ourselves up for failure as demonstrated by 1300 years of prolonged irrationality. Thus, every statement in the quran should be taken exactly as it is and then cross referenced to deduce the correct laws ordained by the almighty. You will know when you're on the right track when you stop capitalising random words and leaving others untranslated.
Peace OPF
That was and still is my approach. To try and let it be as lieteral as possible. But it is that which leads to certain problems. I'll do a breif outline for you.
235-6 says to us to guard our private parts (which as you said also means no sex) but the exception to this are our azwaak and MMA (ma malekat aymunkum).
Now we more or less agree that zawj is spouse, but are in some confusion as to what MMA is as we don't need to guard our private parts to them.
Other important verses to keep in mind with regards to the issue of what MMA are
423-24 These verses forbids us from marrying the muhsinat unless they are our MMA first. Or we could say unless they come from the status of MMA which in my opinion makes it difficult to understand MMA as slaves or maids because what would muhsinat be then?Before i used to think that MMA are fiances or girfriends whom you can have sex with. However based on some replys from others i have concluded that the quran advises sex to be exclusive for marriage. See for exmaple 2433
I've continued to think on this subject however and think that there are two possibilities to MMA based on what i currently know
They could be like a finace or girfriend whom you can't have sex with yet can expose your parts to them. Note that this is not relaxing the code in front of them as i shall explain why in my reply to Aalmakto.
Or it could literally just be anyone whom you have some form of implicit or contractual agreement. This would include doctors, maids, girfriends and so on.
Still thinking on this though.
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MMA, who you can already have a "relaxed" dress code around. Maybe MMA means female servants or maids?
2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
2431 gives those whom we can relax our dress code in front of in which zawj and MMA are included as well as mothers, farthers and so on. But MMA and zawj have a higher degree in what we expose or can do in terms of physcial. 235-6 is not about relaxing the dress code, it is about unguarding the private parts.
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The way I think of it;
MMA = spouse to be under contract (aka fiance)
So you are allowed to have sex with the spouse but NOT the MMA. However you are allowed to "unguard" your private parts to them; sex is still disallowed until you marry them.
The manner in which I think of it is merely that islam promotes a restricted version of free mixing and dating. It puts a serious tinge on sexual activities (and with all these teen pregnancies, STD epidemics, etc, we can see why it's not merely a laugh) but it allows people to test each other.
Thus the process is that a person freely mixes in their environment. They meet a couple of possible suspects but they don't know who to go for. In Western circles, they would "date" each other and generally proceed to procreate like rabbits for 2-32 weeks while pretending to be "in love" until one is unceremoniously dumped, "NEXT".
In the path prescribed here, you are allowed to look at the goods but not touch, you are allowed to touch when you have paid for the damn things yourself. Thus you find your chosen women and then ask them for a trial in marriage, they become your MMA. You then have a process of learning about each other and how both people operate. If you find that you do not work together, you can end the MMA-contract here as in 424. If you like what you see then you can get it by marriage.
On the other hand, "disbelievers" and "fornicators" are allowed to mingle with each other in the quran as they do on the condition that they do not touch "believers" and that they do not do it publicly (and 4 witnesses are required for this). Of course, they are forbidden to fornicate in secret but if you are a fornicator or a disbeliever in God chances are you don't give two shits about that in the first place.
Thus, what the quran promotes in essence comes to this. A society full of honest people who question everything and freely exchange love and peace between each other, freely give and freely recieve. The family structure is rock solid because of the process of guided sexual selection, everyone has an identifiable father and mother who has given them love throughout their life because they know no hate.
Of this society anyone is allowed to have any beliefs and principles on one condition - they must be able to put up or shut up when the belief comes to the test. The disbelievers are allowed to go about their way providing it does not disturb the balance too heavily. In such a manner, the major faults of society are immediately weeded out by the rules of the quran and the minor faults will get taken out along the way by the manner in which the system operates.
Sexual selection is VERY important in the global picture. The state of affairs in the world now is a sum of the state of affairs in the world of the past generation AND their sexual choices. Keeping that in mind, it is no wonder the quran puts up such a strong barrier to lewd practices. If you reproduce with the wrong person a la fornication pregnancies, you create another person who will be shafted and proceed to shaft the world back because of the unneeded deprivation of love for some pathetic people's 2 minute kicks ().
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2431 gives those whom we can relax our dress code in front of in which zawj and MMA are included as well as mothers, farthers and so on. But MMA and zawj have a higher degree in what we expose or can do in terms of physcial. 235-6 is not about relaxing the dress code, it is about unguarding the private parts.
Yes I agree, it is a higher degree of exposure. However there is nothing to indicate that it is a physical unguarding.
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The way I think of it;
MMA = spouse to be under contract (aka fiance)
Earlier in the thread we had a big discussion on this. Here is just one example of many as to why it cannot be fiance.
3353 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.
3354 If you reveal anything, or hide it, God is fully aware of all things.
3355 There is no sin upon them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those who are maintained by their oaths. And be aware of God, for God is witness over all things.Basically what I am getting at is. It is not pure for men to ask the Prophet's wives "something" unless behind a barrier.... EXCEPT for the Prophet's Wives fathers, sons etc. and MMAs (see the Arabic, it is clearly about them). So verse 3355 is implying that the Prophet's wives had MMAs!
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Thanks for the clarification.
Who is "their women" referring to?
Also
- We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish
What is this referring to?!?!
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Thanks for the clarification.
Who is "their women" referring to?
Also
- We did indeed offer the Trust to the Heavens and the Earth and the Mountains; but they refused to undertake it, being afraid thereof but man undertook it;- He was indeed unjust and foolish
What is this referring to?!?!
Good question, I am not sure. I was just referencing it for the "maintained by their oaths" part which is what the translator wrote instead of MMA.
Perhaps 3372 is talking about free-will?
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Sorry, where does it state in the Qur'an that you are allowed to have sex with the spouse?
- Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
Also in the quran, things are permissible unless forbidden/exceed limits .
Good question, I am not sure. I was just referencing it for the "maintained by their oaths" part which is what the translator wrote instead of MMA.
Perhaps 3372 is talking about free-will?
It isn't free will
- Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly.
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anyone know what the exact definition of adultery and fornication according to the quran alone? i believe in 1 god and the last day and want to follow god's laws but my problem is can't really read arabic and i refuse to believe a translator if i can't verify what i read so i don't follow everything i read in a translation if i can't verfy it by god's words or if it's not common sence so i think my only opition is to learn god's words to be able to know.
Peace,
Respect.- One must then learn to read and write Arabic, if one does not trust the translators.
- Sex before and after the marriage is exactly the same act. The point is in obediance to God.
Peace.
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- Your wives are a tilth for you, so go into your tilth when you like, and do good beforehand for yourselves, and be careful (of your duty) to Allah, and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.
Also in the quran, things are permissible unless forbidden/exceed limits .
Yes that is my approach. That all things are permissible unless forbidden.
@Aalmakto.
True it is a higher degree of exposure. But what verse do we have in the Quran that places any limitation on how much we expose or what we do with these parts with erm...our respective MMAs? What's to stop us thinking that we could do all things except actual penetration? The only verse to go by are the ones that talk of lewdness but how can we judge what is lewdness? Unless it's some clear wrong like some kind of fetish or something which we can maby relate to wickedness, i can't see how we can judge something else as lewd when "unguarding" private parts to respective MMAs.@OPF
That verse 2223 does not mention wives. It says women. I do not know of any verse that states sex with spouses to be permissible. Rather it always uses the term nisa meaning sex is permissible with women. But obviously not just any women. Whether it's limited to zawj women or not is what we're trying to figure out here. -
3355 does kill the notion that MMAs are exclusively fiances however it does not wipe out the possibility that it can be a fiance.
Assuming that an MMA is someone whom you have some contract or oath with. This could range from a doctor or nanny to a g/f or fiance.
My point here is that in the case of 3355, it may be that whilst being married, the wives could expose parts to like a doctor or a nanny but could not expose to a boyfriend (as that would be wrong!) and this can be said because whilst being married, certain commitments are in place. One of which is that should you have like a fling with someone who isn't your spouse, whilst you do have a spouse, then that's classifies as lewdness. But if your showing you doctor your parts (for the right reasons) then it's not lewdness. So here you are exposing to your MMA but not commiting lewdness.Now if your not married and you get an MMA (the fiance type) then there is no lewdness if you unguard your parts to them as you don't have other commitments. You have however got to act in accordnace with not being lewd. So hiring a prostitue, might fall into the category of lewdness but being in a relationship won't.
MMA is still MMA but it entails various roles in which all are to do with oaths and contractuall agreement. I'm considering this view at the moment.
@OPF 2433 suggests that we abstain untill marriage. I'm assuming that it's sex that we're abstaining from. I just remembered this verse with respect to condoning marriage for sex. Have not come across any for MMAs which might imply that sex is best left untill marriage.
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Yes that is my approach. That all things are permissible unless forbidden.
@Aalmakto.
True it is a higher degree of exposure. But what verse do we have in the Quran that places any limitation on how much we expose or what we do with these parts with erm...our respective MMAs? What's to stop us thinking that we could do all things except actual penetration? The only verse to go by are the ones that talk of lewdness but how can we judge what is lewdness? Unless it's some clear wrong like some kind of fetish or something which we can maby relate to wickedness, i can't see how we can judge something else as lewd when "unguarding" private parts to respective MMAs.I would say this exposure is of a non-sexual nature. Perhaps its something like, just changing clothes or having a shower.
Some verses about lewdness.
1732 And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.
6151...and do not come near lewdness, what is evident of it and what is subtle...
5332 They avoid major sins and lewdness, except for minor offences. Your Lord is with vast forgiveness. He has been fully aware of you since He initiated you from the earth, and while you were embryos in the wombs of your mothers. Therefore, do not ascribe purity to yourselves; He is fully aware of the righteous.
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peace,
@OPF
That verse 2223 does not mention wives. It says women. I do not know of any verse that states sex with spouses to be permissible. Rather it always uses the term nisa meaning sex is permissible with women. But obviously not just any women. Whether it's limited to zawj women or not is what we're trying to figure out here.Can you clarify for the forum what method you used and how much research you did before making the above statement? (or just the part in bold if my request is too taxing)
This is to help forum members evaluate your study method and thoroughness, and perhaps bear this in mind when reading your posts on this topic.
Thanks.
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peace,
Can you clarify for the forum what method you used and how much research you did before making the above statement? (or just the part in bold if my request is too taxing)
This is to help forum members evaluate your study method and thoroughness, and perhaps bear this in mind when reading your posts on this topic.
Thanks.
Peace Wakas
In this instance I did not search anything. I used my memory because before (not so long ago) I used the old version of globalquran and used it to search all the verses that included the following words wife, spouse. I ticked all english translations to increase my chance of obtaining all relevant verses
Then going on to free-minds.org, i chose the Quran section (as this would also provide the arabic version of verses from the Quran) Using the verses i had found from globalquran i individually went after them in arabic to see whether the term zawj or nisa or some other term is used. I did this because i found some translators translated nisa to wife (as was the case with 2223) and i did not agree with this.
With respect to the issue of sex, from what i picked up in the verses which i got from globalquran, i went to see what arabic word actually means sex in the verses which it was used. I used corpus.quran.com/wordbyword which not only provided the arabic word but also the root of the word which in turn meant that i could use the good resources at studyquran.co.uk/PRlonline to find the meanings of the root and verses it occures at.
Then i looked at those verses to see if there were any verses which implied sex to be exclusive for marriage and found none. The term zawj (if i remember correctly) was used but not in a manner that made sex exclusive to zawj because there were verses with regards to sex with nisa. Thus i concluded sex not to be exclusive to zawj and that is why I wrote in my second to last post which you have quoted "I do not know of any verse that states sex with spouses to be permissible".
However you will find in my post after the one you have quoted, that i have cited 2433 which i remember last discussing on the other thread. I do not know of any other verses which literally state that sex is permissible with zawj. Although it should be said 2433 does not state this but it still does strongly imply that sex is best left till marriage. What i wrote in my post which you have quoted, was meant zawj exclusively. I should have clarified.
If there are any other questions or pieces of advice or criticism then do post as it is better said then not IMO.
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Peace all
For clarification purposes.
What i meant when i said "I do not know of any verse that states sex with spouses to be permissible" was a verse literally saying you can have sex with your zawj or that sex with your zawj has been made permissible. The sort you'll find applied to nisa in 2187.
The reason i said this was to emphasise how there are no verses that make the act permissible and no verses that make the act forbidden exclusively with spouse. I had however forgotten about 2433 which does imply the act to be exclusive with the zawj.
Sorry about any misunderstandings. I was writing in haste. Hope this clarifies.
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peace nimnimak_11,
When cross-referencing a word, you should use the root occurrences, not an English word search via an English translation. To find the Arabic root now is extremely simple with corpus.quran.com In fact, now there is no excuse because it could not be easier, anyone can do it.
The reason I asked what I did was to highlight your methodology and reasoning, which I have found to be quite poor. By adopting a poor method you are doomed to this type of outcome and/or a struggle for the answer. Understanding AQ is quite simple BUT it requires the reader to follow ITS method/thinking in order to determine what it is saying. This is the hard part making oneself conform to it rather than making it conform to you. This is the struggle we all face. Until you conquer yourself you will struggle to conquer it. I simply cannot stress this enough.
In any case, here are some simple examples
Is zawj the exclusive word for spouse in AQ? (this is your underlying assumption it would seem)
What is the Arabic word for "sex"? What are the variations, if any?
Is your statement of "sex with nisa" the same as AQ saying "sex with YOUR nisa"?
You mention 2223 and dismiss it, but if you had studied only a few verses further you would have found some evidence.For an article on study method, I recommend
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html -
Peace Nima
Wakas gave you some good advice. This is advice we all can learn from. Conforming to the message is higly important if you want to make a quality study of it.
"When man doesn't change his life to fit his faith, he will change his faith to fit his life."
