The logic of ibrahim, an example of the divine
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Peace all,
Consider these verses
675 So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude.
676 When the night covered him over, He saw a star He said "This is my Lord." But when it set, He said "I love not those that set."
677 When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said "This is my Lord." But when the moon set, He said "unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray."
678 When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all)." But when the sun set, he said "O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.
679 "For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah."
680 His people disputed with him. He said "(Come) ye to dispute with me, about Allah, when He (Himself) hath guided me? I fear not (the beings) ye associate with Allah Unless my Lord willeth, (nothing can happen). My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things. Will ye not (yourselves) be admonished?
681 "How should I fear (the beings) ye associate with Allah, when ye fear not to give partners to Allah without any warrant having been given to you? Which of (us) two parties hath more right to security? (tell me) if ye know.
682 It is those who believe and confuse not their beliefs with wrong - that are (truly) in security, for they are on (right) guidance.
683 That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people We raise whom We will, degree after degree for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.
Herein is displayed a fundamental example for humanity, that of deductive logic; displayed in an easy manner between 676-79. It is hence evident that the concept of "partners with allah" paraded around by common folk is a different story to the concept of "partners with THE god", a concept that innately cannot make sense for many reasons and thus is it clear that such a belief is false from the get go.
I'll paraphrase something I wrote in another thread
Now, the reason I like the quranic panentheistic God is that it provides logical explanations for everything. Regardless, all questions as to why "God is this or that" can be responded to in a simple manner - if God is all powerful and all knowing, and you are neither, then who are you relative to God to argue as to why things are constructed in this fashion? Rather, one can assert that God exists and get to know the creator and see how his methods work - in a manner identical to the quran and the same method of science and logic already intuitively available to the general public.
In essence, the whole problem is with the semantic definition of God. We have two parties -
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People who wish to accept reality - true believers in God. A striking assumption to make if one is of this group is that "God" exists and also that the God of reality is that same God, which obviously should be the case should God exist; if God is proven logically to not exist then this party should be the first to silence themselves
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People who wish to deny reality by assuming their concept of "God" is truthful and being blind to the actual objective reality around them (any "ism" can be placed herein)
Now, the second case will never be subject to falsifiability and is therefore out of the picture, that is to say that viewpoints which deny the reality around us are to be ignored irrespective of what they state. When one tries to go down this path, it results in a clear cut case of "seeing the wood for the trees", getting lost in the fine details of "If God this, then why that" and the result is yet another "ism" to adhere to which will never guide you rightly. There would be no problem with getting lost in the fine details but we don't have ALL the fine details which are necessary to come to an accurate conclusion, we don't even know what's going on directly behind our own heads! Regardless, this case is inductive logic in action. It is a powerful tool but due to its nature, one cannot really base one's life system on it.
The first case is far more interesting and completely open to the world of falsifiability. Instead of creating a preconception of "God" and seeking to avoid testing it against reality, rather find "God" by testing any conception you have against reality. It should be obvious that if God exists that nobody requires "faith", rather they have been misguided to believe that such a concept is illogical/unfalsifiable and hence requires "faith" to counteract its absurdity. Conversely, if God does not exist, then the process of falsification will rapidly dismiss the possibility of such a "God".
The logic thus works on a simple premise, assume "THE God", the only God of reality exists. Then take any concept of "God" and compare it to what THE God of reality created. If your concept of "God" disagrees, it never was "THE God" in the first place and it never will be. If your concept is false, you merely move on to the next such conception until you find a working paradigm - and this is what has been demonstrated by the example of ibrahim in the quran.
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Peace all,
Now, the reason I like the quranic panentheistic God is that it provides logical explanations for everything. Regardless, all questions as to why "God is this or that" can be responded to in a simple manner - if God is all powerful and all knowing, and you are neither, then who are you relative to God to argue as to why things are constructed in this fashion? Rather, one can assert that God exists and get to know the creator and see how his methods work - in a manner identical to the quran and the same method of science and logic already intuitively available to the general public.
In essence, the whole problem is with the semantic definition of God. We have two parties -
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People who wish to accept reality - true believers in God. A striking assumption to make if one is of this group is that "God" exists and also that the God of reality is that same God, which obviously should be the case should God exist; if God is proven logically to not exist then this party should be the first to silence themselves
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People who wish to deny reality by assuming their concept of "God" is truthful and being blind to the actual objective reality around them (any "ism" can be placed herein)
There is only one God ? Allah. And Allah is NOT panentheistic God. People who says such things are devils advocate. Here is why
1.Panentheism is man made concept (evil man's concept). It is NOT defined by Allah
2.The German philosopher Karl Christian Friedrich Krause (1781?1832) seeking to reconcile monotheism and pantheism, coined the term panentheism ("all in God" in 1828
3.Pantheism emphasizes God's presence in the world but panentheism maintains the identity and significance of the non-divine
4.Panentheism defines Events and changes in the universe effect and change God. As the universe grows and learns, God also increases in knowledge and being
5.Panentheism is anti-Quranic because it violates many Quranic verses
An example of your concept is demonstrated in the following verses
2095 - He said, "What is the matter with you, O Samarian?"
2096 - He said, "I saw what they could not see. I grabbed a fistful (of dust) from the place where the messenger stood, and used it (to mix into the golden calf). This is what my mind inspired me to do."
Yes, this is your fancy desire with which you wish to mislead us all like the Samarian. You and your Bukhari Karl Christian have failed just like Samarian.
Here is what we will do with your Panentheism
2097 - He said, "Then go, and, throughout your life, do not even come close. You have an appointed time (for your final judgment) that you can never evade. Look at your god that you used to worship; we will burn it and throw it into the sea, to stay down there forever."
And remember 2098 - Your only god is GOD; the One beside whom there is no other god. His knowledge encompasses all things.
People who wish to accept reality - true believers in God.
False claim.
Believers believes in unseen.
Reality is what you see at the moment. That is how restricted the reality is. The reality you have memorized from yesterday may not be real today.
And what is the reality of a blind person?
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Much thanks for the post, it does clarify. We should always be aware that there is room for error. I see of course that "Panentheism" can be wrong but it is the closest term to describing the quranic reality which I believe in.
People who wish to accept reality - true believers in God.
False claim.
Believers believes in unseen.
Reality is what you see at the moment. That is how restricted the reality is. The reality you have memorized from yesterday may not be real today.
And what is the reality of a blind person?
Believers however do not believe in the unseen but they never believe in the UNKNOWN (potential falsehood)
- And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that.
Your definition of reality is not the definition I am using. I am talking about the totality of objective reality from each and every single perspective not merely what "you" can see. If we ask you and you alone what is going on, you are going to be fairly dumbfounded. If we take 10 people as witness to a crime we have stronger witness than 2 people. If we take a zillion, the witness is near certain. Whose testimony is the greatest?
4.Panentheism defines Events and changes in the universe effect and change God. As the universe grows and learns, God also increases in knowledge and being
Exactly so. God is "all-knowing". All-knowing implies merely that one knows all that there is to know. Thus there is no paradox; There is no more beyond that, do you understand?
God himself does not ever change, the universe is subject to change. As the universe changes, God changes the universe in response. A system has a total of 100% energy no matter what but the energy is always changing. For instance people who commit a crime against Allah are deserving of hellfire. But if they repent, then Allah forgives.
Do you think that Allah keeps a book of records and "the count of all things" for shits and giggles?
Reality is what you see at the moment. That is how restricted the reality is. The reality you have memorized from yesterday may not be real today.
Actually, the moment you observe a split second before is not the moment you observe right NOW. Why, because the only moment you observe is THE moment, there is nothing else to observe. That does not mean the contents of "the moment" cannot change. And this is assured by the constantness of the speed of light, the fact that space and time are fundamentally connected.
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I see of course that "Panentheism" can be wrong but it is the closest term to describing the quranic reality which I believe in.
It is WRONG because it is UNQURANIC!
Believers however do not believe in the unseen but they never believe in the UNKNOWN (potential falsehood)
WRONG; 23 - who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.
You allow Allah = Falsehood. I disagree (100%). You are WRONG.
If we take 10 people as witness to a crime we have stronger witness than 2 people. If we take a zillion, the witness is near certain. Whose testimony is the greatest?
10 people can cause chaos as well.
Whose testimony is the greatest? Allah?s and the believers.
A system has a total of 100% energy no matter what but the energy is always changing.
The conservation of energy law is for earthly domain only. You cannot apply that limitation to Allah, rather, He made the law to show us how limited we are, we cannot create or destroy anything (His creation).
Exactly so. God is "all-knowing". All-knowing implies merely that one knows all that there is to know. Thus there is no paradox; There is no more beyond that, do you understand?
This is the silly logic that you learned from your Bukhari. What you envision ?beyond that? is known to Him.
Do you think that Allah keeps a book of records and "the count of all things" for shits and giggles?
Allah keeps the book of record for the benefit of His creation. For example, angels can learn from it, they can execute Allah order in accordance with the book, in the hereafter believers may look at it ??.
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Thanks again for the clarification. I appreciate this much, I do.
To answer something I missed before - "And what is the reality of a blind person?"; The reality of a blind person is identical to the reality of the seeing person EXCEPT that the blind person cannot see. He is doomed from the get go - without eyes he cannot save himself from the fire as it creeps towards him to burn him. The foremost warning of the fire is the light that emanates from and within it; and this light he never will be able to see. Once you feel the heat of the flame, it is too late. If you see the light you have the choice to be of the foremost to save yourself.
It is WRONG because it is UNQURANIC!
WRONG; 23 - who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.
Actually that was a typo, as demonstrated by the emboldened "never" succeeding it. The correct and intended statement was Believers do believe in the unseen but they never believe in the UNKNOWN (potential falsehood).
You are also WRONG; 23 actually states the following " "
There is a far higher degree to which the concept of Allah in panentheism is correct relative to the concept of Allah portrayed by hadeethists. Regardless, our creator knows all and I leave my trust in the One to guide me towards the actual truth; can you honestly say the same?
You allow Allah = Falsehood. I disagree (100%). You are WRONG.
In 1420 it is said that Allah has created the universe with truth. Falsehood exists within the universe as stated in 2118. Falsehood is merely truth arranged incorrectly. For example, "2 + 2 = 5 not 4" is a falsehood created from truthful statements; swap the 4 with the 5 and it becomes truthful. In order to define "2+2", one must define what is "4" and "not 4". A logically sound truth is that "4 = NOT NOT 4" (a transistor based circuit will prove this) but that does not tell you what is "not 4" and also it does not tell you what "4" itself is; Allah is He who teaches what these things are to seekers of truth.
10 people can cause chaos as well.
Whose testimony is the greatest? Allahs and the believers.
We are talking about unbiased observers. If 10 people cause chaos, then use a zillion people. If they cause chaos then their testimony is clearly useless, they were a group of people doomed to Hell. More accurately, if you illuminate an object from 2 directions then you will recieve better information about it than 1 direction. If you illuminate it from all directions then you recieve the truth. The witness and the testimony of Allah is His light.
The conservation of energy law is for earthly domain only. You cannot apply that limitation to Allah, rather, He made the law to show us how limited we are, we cannot create or destroy anything (His creation).
Does Allah break his own laws? For example, does Allah forbid good and exceed limits? Indeed, the forbidding of good is in the exceeding of the limits, Allah never forbids good and Allah decides the limits. I am not applying a limit to Allah, I have said from the get go that Allah is infinite in His being. Rather, you cannot comprehend certain crucial subtleties of my argument and I don't think it is physically possible for you to.
This is the silly logic that you learned from your Bukhari.
Actually I never knew who this guy was! I only knew the term "panentheism" and its definition. Thank you for the reference and clarification and again I see that good reasoning is bestowed by Allah to those who think wisely
One of the so-called philosophers of identity, Krause endeavoured to reconcile the ideas of a God known by faith or conscience and the world as known to sense. God, intuitively known by conscience, is not a personality (which implies limitations), but an all-inclusive essence (Wesen), which contains the universe within itself.
This system he called panentheism, a combination of theism and pantheism. His theory of the world and of humanity is universal and idealistic. In many ways following the general outline of Schelling's Philosophy of Nature, he argued that the world itself and mankind, its highest component, constitute an organism (Gliedbau), and the universe is therefore a divine organism (Wesengliedbau). The process of development is the formation of higher unities, and the last stage is the identification of the world with God.
The form which this development takes, according to Krause, is Right or the Perfect Law. Right is not the sum of the conditions of external liberty but of absolute liberty, and embraces all the existence of nature, reason and humanity. It is the mode, or rationale, of all progress from the lower to the highest unity or identification. By its operation the reality of nature and reason rises into the reality of humanity.
God is the reality which transcends and includes both nature and humanity. Right is, therefore, at once the dynamic and the safeguard of progress. Ideal society results from the widening of the organic operation of this principle from the individual man to small groups of men, and finally to mankind as a whole. The differences disappear as the inherent identity of structure predominates in an ever-increasing degree, and in the final unity Man is merged in God.
A beautiful statement which agrees with the evolutionary nature of the reality we observe, statements in the quran and physics, all of which are magnificent witnesses to the truth of Allah, the one, the Truth, the eternal, the self subsisting by which all things subsist.
Mr Krause came to the conclusion using his mind alone that there is a Straight Path and I am sure he was not a "Muslim". However if he believes what he says then he is clearly one of those who submit to the Lord of the Worlds. This shows that the statements of the quran are intuitive and can be found within the mind if one searches with due honesty.
This is the silly logic that you learned from your Bukhari. What you envision beyond that is known to Him.
Allah keeps the book of record for the benefit of His creation. For example, angels can learn from it, they can execute Allah order in accordance with the book, in the hereafter believers may look at it .
You are not grasping something paramount to understanding who Allah is. Allah creates time, a limit, yet He has no limits. Allah created falsehood, while he is Truth. Through physics we observe a finite universe but that exact same piece of evidence also shows us that the universe is probably infinite and Allah knows best.
Allah is He who has established the divine balance, who effortlessly maintains the balance each and every moment and Allah will not be overcome. No word of ours can hurt Allah and no power do we have to create or destroy a thing. The beauty of the divine balance is that I can say this to your face and if you are of those who cannot submit then it will fly over your head and you will never understand.
I believe that panentheism is the truthful concept because of the things stated herein; the universe we can observe is a limited thing within Allah who is unlimited.
Peace, to all that deserve it.
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Thanks again for the clarification.
Peace,
You are welcomed.
To answer something I missed before - "And what is the reality of a blind person?"; The reality of a blind person is identical to the reality of the seeing person EXCEPT that the blind person cannot see. He is doomed from the get go - without eyes he cannot save himself from the fire as it creeps towards him to burn him.
Your concept contradicts the Truth!
801 - He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.
802 - When the blind man came to him.
803 - How do you know? He may purify himself.
804 - Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message.
805 - As for the rich man.
806 - You gave him your attention.
807 - Even though you could not guarantee his salvation.
808 - The one who came to you eagerly.
809 - And is really reverent.
8010 - You ignored him.
There is a far higher degree to which the concept of Allah in panentheism is correct relative to the concept of Allah portrayed by hadeethists. Regardless, our creator knows all and I leave my trust in the One to guide me towards the actual truth; can you honestly say the same?
Panentheism = Hadeeth = FALSE (relative to hadeeth)
Quran opposes Panentheism.
If you illuminate it from all directions then you recieve the truth.
The disbeliever are illuminated with the truth, they don?t accept it. Thus they go to hell willingly. No one sends them there.
Does Allah break his own laws? For example, does Allah forbid good and exceed limits? Indeed, the forbidding of good is in the exceeding of the limits, Allah never forbids good and Allah decides the limits.
If Allah did not subject Himself to the law He created then it is an open question. However, if He subjected Himself to His own law then most certainly He will not break that law.
Allah has voluntarily subjected Himself to the law of good that?s why He is always good.
You are not grasping something paramount to understanding who Allah is. Allah creates time, a limit, yet He has no limits. Allah created falsehood, while he is Truth. Through physics we observe a finite universe but that exact same piece of evidence also shows us that the universe is probably infinite and Allah knows best.
It is really a very simple concept. You have to admit the fact (Truth) that many things are beyond our comprehension because knowledge given to us is minute. His time and our time is not the same.
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Peace,
Interesting!
Your concept contradicts the Truth!
(quran quote)
That is true, that concept does contradict. Can the blind man give himself eyes? Indeed, if he takes the time to and figures out how, he might be able to. If he does not however, the fire awaits. Is the blind man going to be faster than the fire in giving himself the eyes with which to get away, that is the question. Or perhaps while trying to do this, he can lessen how much the fire burns him.
Panentheism = Hadeeth = FALSE (relative to hadeeth)
Quran opposes Panentheism.
Panentheism - "God is the universe and more", this is a "hadeeth". And like any hadeeth, it can be da'if, hasan, mau'du, sahih. I would rate this as at least "hasan". And of course, there is only one assuredly "sahih" hadeeth in existence with the soundest "isnad" of them all.
Can you show me where "Quran opposes Panentheism"?
The disbeliever are illuminated with the truth, they dont accept it. Thus they go to hell willingly. No one sends them there.
The first and second statement is true. The third is an incomplete truth. ALLAH created them and ALLAH created hell which awaits. Disbelievers and hell flow through time and the disbelievers flow right into hell of their own choice. Indirectly, ALLAH sends them there.
If Allah did not subject Himself to the law He created then it is an open question. However, if He subjected Himself to His own law then most certainly He will not break that law.
Allah has voluntarily subjected Himself to the law of good thats why He is always good.
Exactly so. And once ALLAH assigns a law for an appointed time, he will never break it for the appointed time.
It is really a very simple concept. You have to admit the fact (Truth) that many things are beyond our comprehension because knowledge given to us is minute. His time and our time is not the same.
I readily admit this. You seem like a wise person, Mr Guest.
peace