Wife beating in islam? The Quran strikes back

you_gunna_eat_that

peace yget,

Re 3)
You now imply the situations are equal. You previously said otherwise.

It would be prudent not to guess wildly, but people are not always rational, thus a person can fear whatever they think is happening, proving it is another matter. If they take it to court, without evidence, then it is unlikely they will get a verdict they like.

Re 4) You either do not understand my point, or you do not know the meaning of a genetic fallacy. My point was your subjective difference between ""leaving them alone shortly" V iAArdun, is problematic, hence why you probably add "shortly".

I recommend re-reading the article again. Thanks.

Peace

I do not have much new to add so this will probably be my last post on the subject.

I do not imply the situations are equal, I am saying in one situation, the male initiates and the other the female initiates. Thus, it is not problematic to say that V iAArdun is illegal in one situation and generally but not in a totally different reconciliaiton situation that requires its own unique explanation.
Maybe I don't understand your point. I thought you were saying my subjective interpretation of what is less malicious leads me to add the "shortly" in "leaving them shortly." In that case, I think you are guilty of the G Fal. Anyways, the "shortly" part would be something I would explain in a tafseer or something, not a literal translation.

Peace

Wakas

peace all,

Extra info has been added to section 4) Classical Arabic Dictionaries, due to new information.

Pending no significant revisions, it should be possible to launch the proper site in several weeks.

Wakas

peace all,

Update
A dedicated site has been launched www.Quran434.com

There is some new content, e.g. downloadable pdf, recommend by email function, poster/leaflet, promotional buttons and videos. Feel free to spread the word.

http//quran434.com/promo/matrix-unplug-S.gif

New content to the study is as follows

In Abraham's example in 3793 it is DRB with his hand (if taken literally), thus DRB by itself does not mean with the hand. Also, in the Classical Arabic dictionary Lisaan al Arab and Taj al Arus it states " " meaning "he stretched his hand towards such a thing (e.g. to take it)" or "point/indicate with hand to it", and the entry explains "daraba bi yadihi" as similar to "throw the hand (ahwa)" [e.g. verb used in verse 2231 the wind threw him far away (tahwa); and verse 531 and the star when it goes down/vanishes (hawa). This is similar to the analysis of 3793 presented in part one.

It should be noted that the next step after bed separation is authority involvement (e.g. divorce is made official) in 2226-227, which matches the order in 434-35 and maintains internal consistency.

;D

savage_carrot

Peace Wakas,

After re-reading section 17 (474), I have some observations. I will quote the relevant section below

fa darba al rriqabi hattaitha athkhantumoohum = so strike the necks until you overcome them

Some use "hit", "smite", "strike-off". Whilst this is the most common translation, it should be noted that it is taken by many as an idiom (e.g. Mustansir Mir, Al-Jalalayn, Ibn Kathir), meaning slay or kill. This seems a plausible interpretation as in a battle of swords and arrows no commander would order his soldiers to aim for the necks alone.
As a side note, it is interesting to note the difference in phrasing of this verse compared to 812, giving further weight to each of them having different meanings as discussed.

However, upon closer examination, there is an alternative translation, which seems the most likely based on the evidence

So, when you encounter those who have rejected, then put forth /bring about the captives/slaves; until when you have subdued/overcome them, then strengthen the bind. Then after either grace/favour or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. That, and had God willed, surely He would have gained victory Himself from them, but He tests some of you with others. And those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never let their deeds be put to waste.

Notes for the above translation

"darba" is a verbal noun, indicating the act of doing as well as the noun itself, e.g. then putting forth / bringing about the captives/slaves.
In a battle of swords and arrows no commander would order his soldiers to aim for the necks alone.
RQB is NEVER used to mean neck elsewhere in The Quran, as the word for neck is "unuq" (as used in 812 also with DRB). RQB is always used to mean slaves/captives.
If they were supposed to be beheaded, there would not be a need for an instruction regarding captives. Thus to overcome this apparent omission, many traditional commentators translate "fa shuddoo al wathaqa" as "then tie the bond" and say this refers to taking prisoners of war. However, the word "strengthen/tighten (Arabic shuddoo)" implies a pre-existing thing to strengthen/tighten (see its usage in 3820, 7628, 2835, 1088, 2031), but if this is true, where is it in context? It can only relate to "darba al rriqabi", and thus provides strong proof that this phrase is about bringing about captives from the enemy.
This translation makes sense because during open/active fighting, the captives may not be totally secure, and could only really be secured once the enemy has been subdued/overcome. Thus, this verse is implying aim to bring about captives, not necessarily kill them, which shows mercy and less aggression in such a situation, even if it means getting killed.
One meaning of DaRaBa found in Lane's Lexicon is "he made or caused to be or constituted" which is similar to the suggested meaning discussed above.
I am not aware of a Classical Arabic Dictionary which references verse 474 under the root entry of DRB or RQB.

So, when you encounter those who have rejected, then put forth /bring about the captives/slaves; until when you have subdued/overcome them, then strengthen the bind. Then after either grace/favour or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. That, and had God willed, surely He would have gained victory Himself from them, but He tests some of you with others. And those who get killed in the cause of God, He will never let their deeds be put to waste.

I don't think when meeting those who have rejected (implication when we encounter the enemy in battle), we are somehow suddenly being asked to "put forth/bring about" the captives/slaves until when we have subdued/overcome those that have rejected in battle. How are these captives/slaves being put forth/brought about before we have even subdued/overcome the enemy in battle? Realistically any captives/slaves are taken at the end of a battle when we have subdued/overcome those we are fighting!
Given the stages of the verse, even if for a moment, we take it to mean putting forth/bring about the captives before the enemy is subdued (somehow making it make sense), how is strengthening the bind being used in the context of these captives/slaves? If we take strengthening the bind to somehow apply to captives we have already got (from a previous/other battle as we can't get any from an encounter we are fighting presently until we have subdued/overcome the enemy in that instance), it would mean making completely sure that they stayed captive (captive x2 = emphasis on strengthening the bind) after we have subdued/overcome the enemy in which case, any captives still around and kicking and able to have their bind/captivity strengthened x2 would obviously still be captives x1 to begin with, then why the emphasis on "strengthening the bind" of the captives after we've already subdued/overcome the enemy? It would only make slightly more sense if it was referring to strengthening their bind x2 during open/active fighting when they are still captives x1 but are in danger of not being captives at all being sprung/escaping/being killed whatever!
Additionally, if we take it to mean referring to binding securely captives which are not totally secure in open/active fighting after we have subdued the enemy/won the current battle (somehow making it make sense since they are still captives after and not in open/active fighting any more), it would mean that this would not apply to any instance of any battle/encounter where we have no captives from any other battles along with us but only to battles/encounters where we already have captives captured from any other battle/encounter except the current, tagging along with us whilst we fight. It would also not apply to captives held somewhere else and thus would not be in the line of fire/open/active fighting.

The verse starts with an instance of battle (when we encounter those who reject) and then towards the end allows multiple instances of captives/slaves to be graced/favoured/ransomed until the war lays down it's burdens (until all instances have ended and there is an overall result). Each battle/encounter would be dealing with one instance of captives/slaves from that battle/encounter, and we are given the go ahead to either deal with captives jointly or singly until the war lays down it's burdens thus taking into account in the verse, multiple instances in regards to captives from each battle/encounter, if there are any, which the verse starts with.

What I'm interested in then is

-How do we bring about/put forth captives before we subdue the enemy?
-Why the emphasis on captives x2 after we have subdued/overcome the enemy and they are not in active/open fighting thus still captives x1 anyways?
-Would this mean the verse only applies in certain situations where we already have captives with us, and not all situations of encountering the enemy?

Interestingly, someone with a cough traditional bent of mind reading it came up with We are apparently being told to put forth captives as human shields when we encounter the kafirs. These will face the brunt of the battle, and then after we've won the battle, we strengthen the binds of these captives left alive somehow after being used as cannon fodder when the battle is won. This would mean essentially to tie them up again to use them for the next battle because they are now veterans with experience and will serve us well. More so than just rookie captives, with no experience whatsoever. Additionally, this serves as a two pronged defense as well. On one hand, they will take the brunt of the attack and on the other, if the kafirs know them as their brothers and sisters, they might not attack as well as we would think. This is truly brilliant. We must make sure to release them or exchange them as soon as the war ends, I have no issues on that front as long as they've served us well.

His gf (strange for a traditionalist, yes) then came up with Maybe this is pointing to the kafirs throwing people marked as captives at us as we meet them in battle? The captives are thus brought about from the kafirs, the evildoers just catapulted their village idiots at us in a vain bid to succeed. Maybe they use it as a throwing sand in our eyes tactic? We MUST then bind them strongly after we've won because Allah knows, if the kafirs didn't want them, there must be something seriously wrong with them...<thankfully, they stopped here>

In 474 it could mean to attack the vanguard according to lisannul 3arab. It maybe the plural of "raqeeb" which is still used as a rank in the army "sergeant"...(Thanks Samia). We could take it to mean strike/attack the vanguard of their forces? In either case whether we take this meaning or control center as Layth/Edip have used it still makes more sense to me to "strike/attack something of/the enemy" given the stages in the verse than putting forth/bringing about captives before we have even subdued/overcome the enemy in that instance. Also, given the references of strengthening the binding, we have 8926 in the concordance which suggests that it is a totally secure/complete binding. Which would make sense in a situation where after you've won, you still need to tie up/neutralise/secure the loose ends after the battle is won e.g. Say, you win a battle, the enemy is in disarray...what do you do in this situation? They can regroup, they can take you by surprise, they can do things to mess you up even if it doesn't result in anything major if you don't have an efficient aftermath plan laid out. You might get by with none except taking what captives you can or just revel in your glory while some/the rest that can, run off to maybe bite you in the behind later for example but generally, one would want an effective end game to clear up the mess/secure the sit after a victory. This makes it a complete/totally secure (as much as one can) victory. We overcome the enemy, then we secure the situation making it a complete victory as the enemy and your victory is now bound completely, like a neat little package, if you will. If not, gnats can still sting and it won't be as effective a win as it could've been had we not strengthened the bind referring to the overcoming/subduing of the enemy, after.

At least, this is my understanding of the verse till now.

Mazhar

"strike/attack something of/the enemy"

These words give impression of imperative/command to do so, whereas there is no such imperative verb in the verse. The cognate adverb is restricted by the next imperative command that those enemies during the currency of war who have been overpowered/their weapons are dropped--they are not to be killed but are to be arrested/bind them firmly--here object of imperative verb is Alwasaqa. And decision for their disposal is to be taken after the war has come to an end.

savage_carrot

These words give impression of imperative/command to do so, whereas there is no such imperative verb in the verse. The cognate adverb is restricted by the next imperative command that those enemies during the currency of war who have been overpowered/their weapons are dropped--they are not to be killed but are to be arrested/bind them firmly--here object of imperative verb is Alwasaqa. And decision for their disposal is to be taken after the war has come to an end.

I won't pretend to understand where the next imperative command is coming from as next would imply there is a first? It would be clearer if you had written "is restricted by an imperative command that comes after" or something. Anyways, I think it's safe to say that there is to be no killing of any captives since we are specifically told what to do with them grace/ransom/exchange. One can't do that if you've killed them (apparently Israel ransoms dead bodies for live prisoners which I think is insane!). Also, as the verse states, grace/ransom/exchange until the war lays down it's burdens, would mean you can do that during/until the war ends, thus you can't keep them around without doing any of the previously stated options after the war has ended or risk holding captives of war indefinitely? Are you saying the decision for their disposal can only be taken after the war lays down it's burdens? The verse says until, which would include during the war as well and after we have overcome the enemy and strengthened the bind in that particular encounter/battle. War and encounter/battle being different things...I don't understand?

Mazhar

http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/047.%20Muhammad%20Salla%20Allah%20alaih%20wassalm/47.4b.gif
thereat you people bind them/take them prisoners of war since the questions of releasing them as gesture of obliging favour or on ransom arises afterwards when the war may surrender/lay down the weapons .

Particle Fa denotes the consequence/next step , added with Explanation particle, as for the question/issue concerned/regarding.....

is time adverb. conjunction related to previous posibility/course of action....

until the war has become over/concluded.

Exchange or release of prisoners of war and the demand for ransom/losses is made from the defeated party after the war is over.

savage_carrot

until the war has become over/concluded.
Okay, so you are saying the verse says we can't deal with them during the war but only after the war is over? Thus all the captives we may have from all/any of our battles/encounters will remain captive with us with no grace/ransom/exchange until after the war has ended? Yes?

Mazhar

War is one time affair, it may not be pluralized, that may range for couple of days. History of battles tells us that prisoners of war and ransome matters are settled after the cease fire.

savage_carrot

Thanks Mazhar.

Wakas

peace SC,

How are these captives/slaves being put forth/brought about before we have even subdued/overcome the enemy in battle?

Captives can easily be brought about during fighting, this would be quite common I'm sure. The preference would be to take captives, rather than kill them.

then why the emphasis on "strengthening the bind" of the captives after we've already subdued/overcome the enemy?

Once they are subdued/overcome, strengthen/tighten the bind (of the captives). This would be normal, as during more equal-footed fighting this would be more difficult. Since the word shuddoo refers to a pre-existing thing to tighten/strengthen, it can only refer to "DRB al RQB", nothing else, thus whatever you want to render this phrase as, it MUST involve making a bind somehow.

I do not know what you mean with (3), can you clarify, if its still an issue.

Would this mean the verse only applies in certain situations where we already have captives with us, and not all situations of encountering the enemy?

It is not about captives with us, it is about taking (i.e. bringing about, putting forth) captives from the opposing force.

In 474 it could mean to attack the vanguard according to lisannul 3arab. It maybe the plural of "raqeeb" which is still used as a rank in the army "sergeant

Can you clarify if you mean lisannul 3arab discusses "raqeeb" as "sergeant", thus YOU think it could mean "attack the vanguard"? Or do you mean lisannul 3arab specifically mentions 474? Thanks.
If "raqeeb/sergeant" is a theoretical possibility then yes it is possible, however AQ does not use RQB like that, nor would it fit 474, unless the pre-existing bind can be explained.

savage_carrot

Peace bro,

Captives can easily be brought about during fighting, this would be quite common I'm sure. The preference would be to take captives, rather than kill them.
So the actual word used you would say would be bring about rather than put forth? When you meet those who have rejected, "bring about" the captives, then when you have subdued/overcome them (the enemy), strengthen the bind (of the captives you "brought about&quot? I'm sorry, if you would have said "captives can easily be taken during fighting", it would make sense, like you say in addition the preference would be to take captives...exactly. Because "bring about" doesn't make much sense so one has to clarify it. Why doesn't it say, when you meet those who have rejected, take captives, then when you have subdued/overcome them (the enemy), strengthen the bind (of the captives you took)? Especially since "bring about" is being equated to take, and take makes far more sense with no clarification needed!

Can you point me towards where DRB is used as "bring about" in the quran, also? I read through the link but couldn't find any such occurrence. I find concordance helpful.

Once they are subdued/overcome, strengthen/tighten the bind (of the captives). This would be normal, as during more equal-footed fighting this would be more difficult.
What do you mean more equal-footed fighting, just so I have a solid idea of what you mean here?

Since the word shuddoo refers to a pre-existing thing to tighten/strengthen, it can only refer to "DRB al RQB", nothing else, thus whatever you want to render this phrase as, it MUST involve making a bind somehow.
Given the concordance the word can mean to strengthen, harden or strongly (one can take different translations but they all come around to the same thing essentially). If we take the concordance for "bond" we have 474 and 8926 and none can bind with bonds like His. This can mean then strongly bind the bond, bind the bond strongly, bind the bond firmly etc in reference to those we have overcome and taken captive in 474? Seriously, it doesn't make sense for captives x1 to be captives x2 after open/active fighting as I explained in my last post. Edip/Layths translation has "then bind them securely"...it makes sense.

(see its usage in 3820, 7628, 2835, 1088, 2031)

-We strengthened his kingship, and We gave him the wisdom and the ability to make sound judgment.
-We have created them, and We have made them resolute. When we wished, We replaced their kind completely.
-He said, "We will strengthen you with your brother, and We will provide you both with authority. Thus, they will not be able to touch either one of you. With Our signs, the two of you, along with those who follow you, will be the victors."
-Moses said, "Our Lord, you have given Pharaoh and his chiefs adornments and wealth in this worldly life so that they will misguide from Your path. Our Lord, wipe-out their wealth and bring grief to their hearts so that they will not acknowledge until they see the painful retribution.
-"So that I may strengthen my resolve through him."
1418 The example of those who reject their Lord is that their works are like ashes, on which the wind blows strongly on a stormy day; they cannot get anything of what they earned. Such is the farthest straying.

Shiin-Dal-Dal = to bind tightly, strap, strengthen firmly, run, establish, make firm, hard, strong, be advanced (day), be intense. ushdud - harden, strengthen. shadiid (pl. shidaad & ashidda'u - great, firm, strict, vehement, strong, violent, severe, mighty, terrible, stern, grievous, miserly, niggardly. (adj. of the forms fa'iil and fiaal are used indifferently for both m. and f.) ashuddun age of full strength, maturity. ishtadda (vb. - to act with violence, become hard.

shadda vb. (1)

perf. act. 3820, 7628
impf. act. 2835
impv. 1088, 2031, 474

ashudd n.m. 6152, 1222, 1734, 1882, 225, 2814, 4067, 4615

shadid n.m. (adj. pl. ashidda and shidad) 274, 285, 2165, 2165, 2191, 2196, 2200, 2211, 34, 311, 356, 466, 477, 484, 484, 52, 582, 598, 6124, 7164, 813, 825, 848, 852, 969, 981, 997, 1070, 1180, 11102, 1248, 136, 1313, 142, 147, 175, 1758, 182, 1969, 2071, 20127, 222, 2377, 2721, 2733, 2878, 309, 3311, 3446, 357, 3510, 3544, 3711, 3826, 403, 4021, 4022, 4046, 4082, 4115, 4115, 4127, 4216, 4226, 438, 4713, 4816, 4829, 5026, 5036, 535, 5720, 5725, 5815, 594, 597, 5913, 5914, 658, 6510, 666, 728, 736, 7812, 7927, 8512, 1008

ishtadda vb. ( perf. act. 1418

LL, V4, p 241, 242, 243

It is not about captives with us, it is about taking (i.e. bringing about, putting forth) captives from the opposing force.
Putting forth makes no sense, unless you're to put forward your own before the battle (go forth my captives, I'm putting you forth as human shields or I'll catch up to you in a few hours or so, here I'm leaving a contingent of my armed guards to make sure you don't do anything stupid) or putting forth their captives from their clutches i.e. a battle against slavers with captives abounding all about them, run forth you captive fools...I'm putting you forth! I'm here to save you from the bad guys! Putting forth is putting forward, I'm not sure how this can also mean "bringing about" or "taking captives". It's not even similar. Put forth your best foot, put forth the captives...don't get it. Bringing about is also not the best choice as discussed above.

Can you clarify if you mean lisannul 3arab discusses "raqeeb" as "sergeant", thus YOU think it could mean "attack the vanguard"? Or do you mean lisannul 3arab specifically mentions 474? Thanks.

"rigaab" here could mean the vanguard according to lisannul 3arab. It maybe the plural of "raqeeb" which is still used as a rank in the army "sergeant".
This is in reference to 474.

If "raqeeb/sergeant" is a theoretical possibility then yes it is possible, however AQ does not use RQB like that, nor would it fit 474, unless the pre-existing bind can be explained.
I'm not sure if AQ uses DRB as "bring about", I tried searching but couldn't find where it uses it as such. I've touched on the rest above. I have nothing against your translation bro,I respect your hard work immensely, I just want it to make sense to me...you know that I'm not coming up with any bias in this, it doesn't even affect what I'm working on currently...I just don't think it's making sense here in my opinion. I look forward to your explanation on how to make it work.

Mazhar

Captives can easily be brought about during fighting, this would be quite common I'm sure. The preference would be to take captives, rather than kill them.

No Commander of an Army would ever make such blunder of suggesting this preference to its Troops which will endanger their own lives and increase chances of defeat. War means and its loud slogan is to kill and/or get killed.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/009.%20At%20Tauba/9.111a.gif
They confront war in the cause of Allah and resultantly they kill the enemy and they get killed by the enemy in the battlefield.

Since the word shuddoo refers to a pre-existing thing to tighten/strengthen, it can only refer to "DRB al RQB", nothing else, thus whatever you want to render this phrase as, it MUST involve making a bind somehow.

imperative command is subject to the conditionality and not to "DRB al RQB". When the imperative command is related to the happening of a conditionality, unless it is there the imperative command shall be treated as redundant. The verb is Perfect, second person, masculine, with Waw subject pronoun and "Hum" the Object pronoun; Form IV having causitive meanings. In the heat of war, it is most difficult thing to hold back the sword from killing the combating enemy when his weapon has dropped or has become overpowered, exhausted to stand further. That seems to be the basic cause and purpose of this injumction and also to clarify and elaborate the earlier instruction.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/008.%20Al%20Anfaal/8.67.gif
This is not for the Elevated and Chosen Servant of Allah that for him be the prisoners of war till such time that he has subdued/taken full dominance in the land.

Chapter 8

Wakas

peace Mazhar,

You seem to assume it is only deadly combat, i.e. fighting/killing. When actually, 474 discusses a situation, THEN mentions when the enemy is overcome/subdued, but states even after this, the war may not be over. So it may be in reference to a smaller battle, an ambush, or even hostility/scuffles etc. Interestingly, there is no mention of deadly combat in the context or actively going on in this chapter, although I only briefly read it. It only mentions being killed in 474 after it mentions war. Since 474 begins with "fa" it likely refers to the people mentioned previously and those people are repelling from the path of God. This does imply the equivalent harshness would not be killing them. Thus is more evidence for my rendition.

9111 does not say what you say, it literally says "...they fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed...". So, your point is only valid for fighting/killing, not to mention all battles are not about kill or be killed.

imperative command is subject to the conditionality and not to "DRB al RQB".

I understand the conditionality you refer to, this is obvious, however I am referring to the overall sequential and logical link between shuddoo and it referring to a pre-existing thing to tighten/strengthen, thus one simply needs to ask what can it refer to? There is only one possibility in the context and that is "DRB al RQB".

Thanks for bringing up 867, as this seems to imply ASR (~prisoners of war) are officially/properly bound/kept captives. Since they can only be taken after subdued/overcome in the land as per 867, and the same word is used in 474 and here the sequence is when the bind is strengthened it is only then can they be ransomed or released/grace (implying in this case they go from RQB to ASR when the bind is strengthened). Thus, by default, RQB are not bound firmly in this manner. This is further proven by AQ cross-reference (e.g. 870 refers to ASR in one's hands/power/control) and Lane's Lexicon.

As we can see, the evidence so far is weighted in favour of my rendition.

Wakas

peace sis,

The word DRB has a certain connotation and is the perfect word in 474, not "take". In the www.Quran434.com study

It seems that the default meaning of DRB is "to put/show forth (from one person/place to another person/place)". This core meaning fits into every occurrence, and thus could be seen as its basic/core meaning. Lane's Lexicon states that its meaning is "to put into commotion" which is similar. Of course, with various prepositions and subject matter, this basic meaning can be refined and better rendered depending on situation.

From one place to another may be from non-existence to existence or somewhere intangible to somewhere tangible. For example, when AQ says "DRB an example" it means the example is put/shown forth, brought about, e.g. from God to us, or when a person "DRB an example" they took it from their mind and brought it out in the open by verbalising it, i.e. they DRB'd it.
Similarly, no RQB exists yet, we are commanded to DRB the RQB, i.e. bring about RQB/captives. This is likely why Lane states one of its meanings is exactly this.

Can you point me towards where DRB is used as "bring about" in the quran, also? I read through the link but couldn't find any such occurrence. I find concordance helpful.

Although I prefer "put/show forth" generally, you can see any AQ occurrence of DRB when applied to a direct object (e.g. Jesus, parable, truth, falsehood, a dry path, wall).

What do you mean more equal-footed fighting, just so I have a solid idea of what you mean here?

I mean anything less or prior to subdued/overcome them.

Seriously, it doesn't make sense for captives x1 to be captives x2 after open/active fighting as I explained in my last post.

I dont understand your objection, as it makes perfect sense to me. As a side note, Edip/RQT's translation also mentions my rendition as a possibility, at the end of their verse note "Considering the context of the verse and emphasis on capturing the enemy, we could have translated the segment under discussion as, "aim to take captives."

This is in reference to 474.

You did not quite answer what I wanted. As far as I am aware, no CAD specifically mentions 474. I think you are misreading what sister Samia said, she is using an understanding of RQB found in lisaanul 3arab and inserting it in 474.

I have nothing against your translation bro,I respect your hard work immensely, I just want it to make sense to me

Of course, we are both here to learn. I did not take it any other way.

savage_carrot

Peace bro,

From one place to another may be from non-existence to existence or somewhere intangible to somewhere tangible. For example, when AQ says "DRB an example" it means the example is put/shown forth, brought about, e.g. from God to us, or when a person "DRB an example" they took it from their mind and brought it out in the open by verbalising it, i.e. they DRB'd it. Similarly, no RQB exists yet, we are commanded to DRB the RQB, i.e. bring about RQB/captives. This is likely why Lane states one of its meanings is exactly this.
Let's take the RQB example. We know no captives exist unless we capture them. So, if we are being told to capture the enemy instead of killing them as a preference and I have two choices as a command, take or bring about, I'd choose take because it's clearer. There really isn't any point in arguing this further.

Although I prefer "put/show forth" generally, you can see any AQ occurrence of DRB when applied to a direct object (e.g. Jesus, parable, truth, falsehood, a dry path, wall).
I don't see put/show forth as an apt choice for the command to take the enemy captive. I don't think one can argue this any further, it is what it is.

I mean anything less or prior to subdued/overcome them.
It doesn't address my query imo.

I dont understand your objection, as it makes perfect sense to me. As a side note, Edip/RQT's translation also mentions my rendition as a possibility, at the end of their verse note "Considering the context of the verse and emphasis on capturing the enemy, we could have translated the segment under discussion as, "aim to take captives."
Since I have no bone to pick with you, I'm coming in with no real bias and I have a decent grasp of the language...it should be easy to get but it's not, it's a bit convoluted which it shouldn't be in my opinion.

You did not quite answer what I wanted. As far as I am aware, no CAD specifically mentions 474. I think you are misreading what sister Samia said, she is using an understanding of RQB found in lisaanul 3arab and inserting it in 474.
You asked if 474 was specifically mentioned in Lisaan, I gave you her exact quote in reference to 474 that she and I were discussing. If there's a problem with her understanding of RQB, let me know and I'll forward her the info.

Wakas

peace sis,

Feel free to use "make, cause to be, constitute", as mentioned in Lane.

But for sake of argument, let's say my wording is convoluted, let's look at the alternatives. What are they? All other options I have seen are flawed more significantly than subjectively "convoluted" wording. If you can provide what you feel is the best rendering of "DRB al RQB" we can examine it.

And no, there is no problem with Samia's understanding of RQB. Lisaan does not reference 474, neither under DRB or RQB however. That is what I was clarifying.

Mazhar

In 474 it could mean to attack the vanguard according to lisannul 3arab. It may be the plural of "raqeeb" which is still used as a rank in the army "sergeant"...(Thanks Samia)

Sister Samia I wish you all happiness. For the purpose of seeking guidance and expert opinion, I want to point out that I recall to have checked it somewhere that plural of is while is the singular of .

I may clarify that was later started being used for the whole human body and metonimically it also became the name for referring to slaves.

savage_carrot

pax bro,

I'll "bring about" a rendering I think is best and then "make" it appear on the thread. Then we shall see which "puts forth" it's best foot, and that one might have "cause to be" "constituted" as the WINNAR.

After I'm done doing what I should be doing...I let captives distract me but then they are so darn captivating.

Mazhar

If they were supposed to be beheaded, there would not be a need for an instruction regarding captives. Thus to overcome this apparent omission, many traditional commentators translate "fa shuddoo al wathaqa" as "then tie the bond" and say this refers to taking prisoners of war. However, the word "strengthen/tighten (Arabic shuddoo)" implies a pre-existing thing to strengthen/tighten (see its usage in 3820, 7628, 2835, 1088, 2031), but if this is true, where is it in context? It can only relate to "darba al rriqabi", and thus provides strong proof that this phrase is about bringing about captives from the enemy.

The highlighted presumption seems to be making things perplexed. In Arabic the object of the verb does not ordinarily precede the subject of the verb. If the object of the verb has succeded there can't be an object after it. Here the object of the verb appears after the subject of the verb. Therefore, presumption is baseless and unfounded. The conditionaility, situation arisen necessitating this action has been mentioned immediately before it, and there is no such precedence, to my knowledge, in Grammer rules which could permit stretching it to relate it to "darba al rriqabi".
Thanks.