How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Peace Nima
I disagree. I think it applies to more than just sex. From my understanding of 2433 and other verses, being chaste/abstaining, is more than just sex. When we look at the verses in Quran and intergrate them, we will understand that being chaste/abstaining is a mentality. And it's an integrated mentality, not just about sex( which is a one-dimensional view).
Other verses talk of being chaste and guarding our private parts to others. This however is an exception to MMAs and zawjs. I've not made a definate decision on what i think an MMA is but at the moment, i consider the possiblity that it could mean girlfriend as in a relationship with a girlfriend. If you take it to mean finace, then may i ask why you would think it a fiance but not girlfriend?
You do not need to have a relationship to discover if someone is right for you. First you get a fiance, then you get the resources, then you get married with her. You do not need to have a physical relationship to get close to someone.
You do not necessarily even need to look at the person to see if they are right for you. But the question is why should we not if it not be forbidden?
Similarly why should a couple not have a physical relationship (excluding sex) when they are close enough or comfortable enough with each other and both mutually want it if it is not restricted in the Quran?Ahh, so you are saying that there are other options than marriage/commitment available. If i read between the lines, you are saying that the options available will be physical relationships or sleeping instead of having sex. I don't believe in these options. I think people should get engaged and then get married.
No what i meant was that an approach in which where we think by waiting for the perfect person we are being patient, is wrong. We are not being patient, we are being lazy or lacking in determination or being too stingy in such cases IMO. That is what i meant. Whilst we are young, we should be meeting girls and searching for someone whom we could love and spend the rest of our lives with IMO. If leave it till late, it is a mistake IMO.
In life, we can not fill a pot with a new substance if it is already full with an old substance. I have already given my view on MMA, on the thread "Having relationships not compatble with the Quran?". However, my view on MMA has changed. Not much, but changed. So maybe i will explain my view on MMA another time.
No problem. I have not yet made a solid decision on MMA yet. There are about 3 verses which convey differently to MMA being finaces or girlfriends although i feel the other verses all point to MMA being possibly a girlfriend or an MMA as well as other things.
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Peace Nima
In your last post you asked two questions. I don't have any comments to them at the moment. I have explained my views on the thread "Having relationship before marriage?". You may wish to read the posts in that thread one more time if you want to learn more about my views and arguments and why i believe what i believe. My time is valuable, so i consider myself finished with the topic of marriage and relationships for now. I think there are more important things in life to do than to use so much time on those topics (when i have gotten the answers i need to know). I think it is good that you ask questions, and it is important with discussion. However, i am not a supporter of rationalization. Looking to find the concept of girlfriend in the Quran is rationalization. Making a conclusion, then looking for the evidence = Rationalization. Finding the evidence then looking for a conclusion = Reasoning. Look at the superstitions and falsehoods people believe. They believe in code 19, they believe vaccines being good for your health and that the theory of evolution is flawless. You know why? Because they rationalize. They make a conclusion first, then they look for the evidence. And when the evidence don't fit into their conclusions, they dismiss it. They base their understanding on superstition and fantasy instead of facts and reality. And they do not look for arguments for and against and then make an opinion. They have an opinion and ignore the arguments which are against that opinion. They only accept the arguments which support their opinion.
When it comes to their decisions in life, most people rationalize. And i must admit that i have been guilty of rationalization as well in the past. But when it comes to quran, or knowledge, i think there is no excuse. I believe we must do our best when studying the quran or when we gain knowledge. We should base our conclusions on evidence. Because if we look for something that can not be found, we will look forever. And it will waste our valuable time.
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Peace Nima
In your last post you asked two questions. I don't have any comments to them at the moment. I have explained my views on the thread "Having relationship before marriage?". You may wish to read the posts in that thread one more time if you want to learn more about my view and arguments and why i believe what i believe. My time is valuable, so i consider myself finished with the topic of marriage and relationships for now. I think there are more important things in life to do than to use so much time on those topics (when i have gotten the answers i need to know). I think it is good that you ask questions, and it is important with discussion. However, i am not a supporter of rationalization. Looking to find the concept of girlfriend in the Quran is rationalization. Making a conclusion, then looking for the evidence = Rationalization. Finding the evidence then looking for a conclusion = Reasoning. Look at what people believe. They believe in code 19, they believe in superstition like vaccines being good for your health and the theory of evolution being flawless. You know why? Because they rationalize. They make a conclusion first, then they look for the evidence. And when the evidence don't fit into their conclusions, they dismiss it. They base their understanding on superstition and fantsasy instead of facts and reality. And they do not look for arguments for and against and then make an opinion. They have an opinion and ignore the arguments which are against that opinion. They only accept the arguments which support their opinion. But this way of thinking is wrong.
Most people rationalize when it comes to their decisions in life. And i must admit that i have been guilty of rationalization as well in the past. But when it comes to quran, or knowledge, i think there is no excuse. I believe we must do our best when studying the quran and when we gain knowledge. We should base our conclusions on evidence. Because if we look for something that can not be found, we will look forever. And it will waste our valuable time.
Peace David
I used the verses of the Quran to back my points. We cannot make the assumption that physical relations with girlfriends are forbidden unless we see verses that imply this. What is wrong with this statement? Why should we be determined to side MMA as a finace when there is no obligation for us to do so nor is there any verse that suggests doing so would count towards a good deed.
I have read your posts in the other thread you began and feel i am fairly familiar with your views. We make our own choices and are accountable for them.
You advised me not to conform the Quran to my beliefs and that to confrom my beliefs to the Quran. To a good degree, I would advise the same. Never approach anything with preconcieved notions. So if you see the word chaste, do not assume that it implies 0 physical relations UNTILL you come across evidence either in the scripture (and if not there) then the heart and reasoning. Similiarly if you come across the phrase MMA don't assume it means fiance or girlfriend or slave untill you see evidence for such things. -
I agree that we should not make forbidden something which is not forbidden. that is exactly why i said in my last post on the thread about relationships that i have not said that physical relationships are forbidden before marriage. I only believe sex is not allowed before marriage. But i believe physical relationships are not compatible with islam. You may wish to read my last post on the thread "Having relationships not compatible with Quran". There is a difference between something being forbidden, and something being not compatible.
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I agree that we should not make forbidden something which is not forbidden. that is exactly why i said in my last post on the thread about relationships that i have not said that physical relationships are forbidden before marriage. I only believe sex is not allowed before marriage. But i believe physical relationships are not compatible with islam. You may wish to read my last post on the thread "Having relationships not compatible with Quran". There is a difference between something being forbidden, and something being not compatible.
Physical relations not being compatible in Islam would have to at least imply that there are certain verses which give such an implication. With respect to MMAs I have come across none. I went back and saw your last post, but look back at them and tell me where do you see anything that implies we should not have a physical realtionship with an MMA? Surely this incompatibility comes from somewhere it there is one right? But where?
Do not forget your agreement with the idea of conforming one's beliefs to the scripture and not the other way round.
If there is a verse that you feel implies that physical relations with MMAs are imcompatible with Islam, please point out. But the ones you quoted in your last post on the other thread don't. If you still feel they do, point to the specific part you feel it does and should you want, we can discuss from there.The only way i can see physical relations prior to marriage being unquranic, is if MMAs did not=girlfirends and this may be the case though i feel this unlikely.
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Peace Nima.
I have already explained my views. I don't like to use more time than necessary on a topic. My time is valuable and i have to focus on other things in my life that are more important. Instead of asking me more questions, do your own research. I recommend reading articles and books about the topics of of marriage and relationship in quran. Many of the scholars of islam have written explanations about marriage and relationships between men and women. They have explained those topics in depth. Read the explanations of at least 5 scholars.
The only way i can see physical relations prior to marriage being unquranic, is if MMAs did not=girlfirends and this may be the case though i feel this unlikely.
Exactly. From my understanding MMA's are not girlfriends.
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Many of the scholars of islam have written explanations about marriage and relationships between men and women. They have explained those topics in depth
Personally, I find most texts on the subject written by traditional Islamic scholars pretty depressing. It's always the same blabla ... that women should stay at home and take care of household and children because that is supposedly their divinely ordained role in life. Husbands are supposed to earn money, make important decisions and be the "heads of the household" because they are supposedly stronger, more intelligent, more rational and so on. Not to mention all this crap about women having to be obedient to their husbands and so on ...
nope
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Salam Leyna.
Who said traditional scholars? And who asked for your opinion? Do you think the world revolves around you? lol. P
Just joking...When i said scholars, i did not mean traditional scholars. By scholars i mean people like Tariq ramadan, Mirza Tahir, Dr Fathi osman, Dr Sayed abdul, G.A. etc...
By the way, i asked you two questions in my last post to you in this thread. I recommend answering them. lol.
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And who asked for your opinion? Do you think the world revolves around you? lol. P
http//www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/traurig/sad-smiley-068.gif
When i said scholars, i did not mean traditional scholars. By scholars i mean people like Tariq ramadan, Mirza Tahir, Dr Fathi osman, Dr Sayed abdul, G.A. etc...
Okay. I misunderstood you then, because you wrote "many of the scholars of Islam". And most of the scholars are more or less traditionally oriented.
But I'll check out the views of some of those you mentioned above.
By the way, i asked you two questions in my last post to you in this thread. I recommend answering them. lol.
Oops, sorry! I didn't intentionally avoid answering any questions. Will go back and check. peace
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Peace Nima.
I have already explained my views. I don't like to use more time than necessary on a topic. My time is valuable and i have to focus on other things in my life that are more important. Instead of asking me more questions, do your own research. I recommend reading articles and books about the topics of of marriage and relationship in quran. Many of the scholars of islam have written explanations about marriage and relationships between men and women. They have explained those topics in depth. Read the explanations of at least 5 scholars.
Exactly. From my understanding MMA's are not girlfriends.
Peace David
My questions were not intended for me. They were directed at you as you were making claims without backing them bro. If you look at my responses to you, I used verses to back up my points about MMAs and my understanding of them. You directed me to your old post and I then direct you to your own old post and asked you for proof.
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Peace David
My questions were not intended for me. They were directed at you as you were making claims without backing them bro. If you look at my responses to you, I used verses to back up my points about MMAs and my understanding of them. You directed me to your old post and I then direct you to your own old post and asked you for proof.
I have backed up my claim with quranic verses in the last post in that thread. Read the post one more time.
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Personally, I find most texts on the subject written by traditional Islamic scholars pretty depressing. It's always the same blabla ... that women should stay at home and take care of household and children because that is supposedly their divinely ordained role in life. Husbands are supposed to earn money, make important decisions and be the "heads of the household" because they are supposedly stronger, more intelligent, more rational and so on. Not to mention all this crap about women having to be obedient to their husbands and so on ...
nope
I agree the phallocratic mind set of conservative muslims is a serious obstacle. But I don't think it follows that marriage - being public promises of faithfulness - is part of the sexist tradition.
Progress in history has been all about making relationships more formal, not less formal. Business used to just be about verbal agreement, now it is much more formalised with courts laying down complex rules. Sexual relationships have to catch up some day. Not in the sense of bringing money into it, no! But in the sense of requiring couples to talk to each other, have common expectations, ending secret relationships so that commitments are public and obligations clear - i.e. marriage.
by the way you might have missed my post on the last page
Are they? Do you have statistics for that?
Yes, this is well known
The article (There's a paywall)
http//www.economist.com/world/united-states/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_JNTRTNSLink behind the paywall
http//cpffoundation.org/frayedKnot.htmlCo-habiting couples have the same number of hands as married couples, so they ought to make equally good parents. Many do, but on average the children of co-habiting couples do worse by nearly every measure. One reason is that such relationships are less stable than marriages. In America, they last about two years on average. About half end in marriage. But those who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce.
Many people will find this surprising. A survey of teenagers by the University of Michigan found that 64% of boys and 57% of girls agreed that ?it is usually a good idea for a couple to live together before getting married in order to find out whether they really get along.? Research suggests otherwise. Two-thirds of American children born to co-habiting parents who later marry will see their parents split up by the time they are ten. Those born within wedlock face only half that risk.
The likeliest explanation is inertia, says Scott Stanley of the Centre for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver, Colorado. Couples start living together because it is more fun (and cheaper) than living apart. One partner may see this as a prelude to marriage. The other?usually the man?may see it as something more temporary. Since no explicit commitment is made, it is easier to drift into living together than it is to drift into a marriage. But once a couple is living together, it is harder to split up than if they were merely dating. So ?many of these men end up married to women they would not have married if they hadn't been living together,? says Mr Stanley, co-author of a paper called ?Sliding versus deciding?.
Think about it logically - this is about the psychology of motivation - when a person promises to do something, it makes it more likely they will follow through. Whey make that promise in front of friends and family, that is every stronger motivation. The way peer pressure influences human beings is very well established. That's the whole point of marriage.
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Peace David
I'll quote every verse you use in your last reply but please, be patient and give it fair thought
Quran 2430
Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, for that is better for them. God is fully aware of what you doThe exception to this are Spouses and MMAs 235-6
Quran 235
And they keep covered their private parts.With the exceptions of thos already stated
Quran 6151
Say Come let me recite what your Lord has made unlawful for you that you should not set up anything with Him; and do good to your parents; and do not kill your children for fear of poverty, We provide for you and for them; and do not come near lewdness, what is evident of it and what is subtle; and do not take the life which God has made forbidden, except in justice. That is what He enjoined you that you may comprehend.How can you judge physical relations with MMA to mean lewd when physical relations with zawj is not lewd?
Quran, 55
Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the protected females from those who are believers, and the protected females from those who have been given the Book before you, if you have given them their dowries, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers. And whoever rejects belief, then his work has fallen, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.This is in the case of marriage as there is reference to dowrie which is of marriage. But this is an interesting verse as technically, you cannot marry a muhsina (protected females) unless they are of MMA. But still this does not imply incompatibility of physical relations with MMA.
Quran 2431
Tell the acknowledging women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts,
and that they should not show off their attraction except what is apparent, and
let them cast their clothes over their cleavage. Let them not show off their attraction
except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or
their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their
brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their children that come after them,
or those who are still their dependants, or the male servants who are without need,
or the child who has not yet understood the nakedness of women. Let them not
strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of
their attraction. Repent to God, all of you acknowledgers, so that you may
succeed.For some reason, something crucial is missing from that verse. Here it is again with what was missed out highlighted in bold
And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths(MMA), or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.
From where do we see an incompatibility of physical relations with MMA from the verses you quoted in your last post on the other thread?
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peace nima
I don't like to use more time on the "topic of marriage and relationships on this thread". I have already gotten the answers i need. It is just like being a customer and looking at bikes in a store. If you are only going to buy a bike, you don't want to use more time than necessary in that shop. You leave as soon as you bought the bike. My time is valuable and i want to focus on other things in my life and discuss other topics in this forum. But if you have any questions regarding the verses in your last post, ask other members and they will probably answer them. Or as i have already adviced you Do your own research by reading articles and books on the topic of marriage and relationships between men and women.
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Peace Leyna
Okay. I misunderstood you then, because you wrote "many of the scholars of Islam". And most of the scholars are more or less traditionally oriented.
You are right, most of the scholars are more or less traditionally oriented. So i take that back. Let's say some of the scholars instead of many.
But I'll check out the views of some of those you mentioned above.
Yes, do it.
Oops, sorry! I didn't intentionally avoid answering any questions. Will go back and check. peace
No problem ) If you don't want everyone to know the answers of those questions, you don't need to answer them. Or if you want you can send me a pm with the answers. That would be cool.
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peace nima
I don't like to use more time on the "topic of marriage and relationships on this thread". I have already gotten the answers i need. It is just like being a customer and looking at bikes in a store. If you are only going to buy a bike, you don't want to use more time than necessary in that shop. You leave as soon as you bought the bike. My time is valuable and i want to focus on other things in my life and discuss other topics in this forum. But if you have any questions regarding the verses in your last post, ask other members and they will probably answer them. Or as i have already adviced you Do your own research by reading articles and books on the topic of marriage and relationships between men and women.
Peace David
No problem. I have no questions regarding the verses in the last post, but found one interesting after looking a second time. So thanks.
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But no secular laws protects women and children as the laws in the Quran. The system of islam (not religion) in the Quran, have laws in it that are ahead of time and have not even been established in secular countries. It may take hundreds of years before these laws will be accepted, appreciated, and established.
I basically agree. But I believe that many things which were being introduced by the Qur'an were not meant to be practiced exactly as they are described therein, but should be adapted to time and circumstances. Let's take women's issues, for example, like inheritance, divorce, bearing witness etc. I think most of us agree that the creator makes no difference based on gender and that equality and justice are what should be achieved. But I also believe that many things that were an improvement in women's right in the seventh century would be a huge step backwards if they are being applied nowadays. So I believe that the changes and rules being introduced back then were merely the starting point of a development.
You seem like an open-minded girl, which i think is good. How old are you? And are you a convert? just curious.
I am old enough to not call myself a girl anymore. And, no, I never officially converted and don't intend to, for various reasons. One is my rejection of the Sunni shahada. Another is that I believe religion is a private matter, and I don't need to attach an official label on myself in order to practice my beliefs.
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The article (There's a paywall)
http//www.economist.com/world/united-states/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_JNTRTNSLink behind the paywall
http//cpffoundation.org/frayedKnot.htmlUnfortunately, I can't open either of those links.
I am not saying you are wrong, btw., but I would prefer to see some proof regarding your statement that unmarried couples are more likely to split up than married ones.
peace
Think about it logically - this is about the psychology of motivation - when a person promises to do something, it makes it more likely they will follow through. Whey make that promise in front of friends and family, that is every stronger motivation. The way peer pressure influences human beings is very well established. That's the whole point of marriage.
I understand what you're saying, but my point was that a couple who lives together, declares to everyone that they belong together, include their extended families and so on are basically making a public promise.
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Unfortunately, I can't open either of those links.
I am not saying you are wrong, btw., but I would prefer to see some proof regarding your statement that unmarried couples are more likely to split up than married ones.
peace
I understand what you're saying, but my point was that a couple who lives together, declares to everyone that they belong together, include their extended families and so on are basically making a public promise.
i agree that ppl who are living together and declare to evryone that they are together wud basically be married in the eyes of God, But only IF they are very serious about each other..then again i dont get why not just get married..its the same thing..only with the added security of a marriage contract..my experience is that ppl talk a LOT about marriage and how they want to marry the other person..blah blah....and under the guise of that start taking advantage of the other person...so i tend to think that marriage protects the couple, reassures them of each others loyalty. even though i think many "legal" marriages lack that, its still good to be on the safer side..and theres no harm in signing a marriage contract with someone you love and care for..plus if there comes a time of disagreement and possible separation, its strongly suggested in quran that the couple shud get ppl to intermediate for them (the same ppl who were witness to their marriage i presume) and work towrds a possible reconciliation. this way, i think really protects the 2 ppl and discourages the idea of one of them just walking out on the other one fine day
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Peace Leyna )
I basically agree. But I believe that many things which were being introduced by the Qur'an were not meant to be practiced exactly as they are described therein, but should be adapted to time and circumstances. Let's take women's issues, for example, like inheritance, divorce, bearing witness etc. I think most of us agree that the creator makes no difference based on gender and that equality and justice are what should be achieved. But I also believe that many things that were an improvement in women's right in the seventh century would be a huge step backwards if they are being applied nowadays. So I believe that the changes and rules being introduced back then were merely the starting point of a development.
I also believe that the laws of the Quran can be adapted to the time and circumstances we live in. The Quran is very flexible.
If you are interested in learning more about the rights of women according to the Quran, I recommend an article about Quran. The article explain that the Quran gives women more rights than any other religious scripture, and that the Quran even gives women more rights than the constitution of the United states
Koran and the liberation of women
http//www.quran.org.uk/out.php?LinkID=137I also recommend this book
Quran and woman
http//www.amazon.com/Quran-Woman-Rereading-Sacred-Perspective/dp/0195128362/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275825043&sr=8-2Have a nice day