If men must be circumsized, then God is not only liar, but incompetent!
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So where in the Torah is Muhammad mentioned?
Deut 1818 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.How many verses start with IN THE NAME OF GOD, MOST GRACIOUS MOST MERCIFUL?
This was said to Moses and Christians believe this is about Jesus
the only 2 things that Moses and Jesus have in common is
1, Moses was a Jew, Jesus was a Jew
2, Moses was a prophet, Jesus was a prophet.if these are the only criteria for considering 'like you' to be Jesus then it could have also meant Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist etc as they were all Jews and all prophets. So there is nothing to assume this verse is meaning Jesus as is taken by Christians because Jesus, apart from being a Jew and a prophet, as the rest I mentioned are, was nothing 'like Moses'.
According to some Christians, Jesus is God, Moses is not God.
According to some Christians, Jesus died for the sins of the world, Moses did not die for the sins of the world.
According to Christians, Jesus went to hell for 3 days, Moses didnt.
Moses and Muhammed had father and mother, Jesus only had a mother.
Moses and Muhammed came by a normal birth, Jesus was by 'miraculous conception'
Moses and Muhammed married and had children, Jesus stayed single and had no children
Moses and Muhammed were accepted by their people at the time of their prophethood, Jesus was rejected and put to death by his people. (John 111)
Moses and Muhammed were prophets and Kings over their people. By King I mean they had power of life and death over their people, Jesus kingdom was not of this World
Moses and Muhammed brought new laws to their people. Moses not only gave the Ten Commandments to the Israelites, but a very comprehensive ceremonial law for the guidance of his people.
QUOTE "Muhummed comes to a people steeped in barbarism and ignorance. They married their step-mothers; they buried their daughters alive; drunkenness, adultery, idolatry, and gambling were the order of the day. Gibbon describe the Arabs before Islam in his "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire", THE HUMAN BRUTE, ALMOST WITHOUT SENSE, IS POORLY DISTINGUISHED FROM THE REST OF THE ANIMAL CREATION.' There was hardly anything to distinguish between the "man" and the "animal" of the time; they were animals in human form.
"From this abject barbarism, Muhummed elevated them, in the words of Thomas Carlysle, "into torch-bearers of light and learning.' 'TO THE ARAB NATION IT WAS AS A BIRTH FROM DARKNESS INTO LIGHT. ARABIA FIRST BECAME ALIVE BY MEANS OF IT. A POOR SHEPHERD PEOPLE, ROAMING UNNOTICED IN ITS DESERTS SINCE THE CREATION OF THE WORLD. SEE, THE UNNOTICED BECOMES WORLD NOTABLE, THE SMALL HAS GROWN WORLD-GREAT. WITHIN ONE CENTURY AFTERWARDS ARABIA WAS AT GRANADA ON ONE HAND AND AT DELHI ON THE OTHER. GLANCING IN VALOUR AND SPLENDOUR, AND THE LIGHT OF GENIUS, ARABIA SHINES OVER A GREAT SECTION OF THE WORLD. ..." The fact is that Muhummed gave his people a Law and Order they never had before." END QUOTEJesus brought no new law and came to fulfill the old law (matt 517-1
Moses and Muhammed died normal deaths, Jesus died on the cross.
Moses and Muhammed both have graves on this earth, Jesus ascended to be with the father.
'from among their brethren'
Abraham had 2 sons, firstborn was Ishmael from Hagar. he was the ONLY son till he was about 13 years old then God granted Abraham a child with Sarah which was Isaac. They have the same father so they are brothers, the children of each are therefore 'brethren' of the other. the children of Isaac are the Jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs. Gen 1612 confirms that Ishmael shall dwell in the presence of all his 'brethren', Gen 2518 confirms he died in the presence of his 'brethren' the Israelites. The verse in Deut 1818 does not say 'from among yourselves' and so not from the 'children of Israel' but from among 'the brethren' of the people of Israel. Moses was descendant of Isaac and Muahmmed was from 'their brethren' from the line of Ishamael.'and I will put my words in his mouth'
Muhammed was told to "RECITE in the name of your Lord," that was the first verse of revelation of Quran and he was to recite Quran (Words of God) to the people.
Muhammed was more like Mose than Jesus was and Deut 1818 has to be about Muhammed and not Jesus.
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According to the Qur'an the prophet mentioned in the Torah is "unlettered" (7157). I find no mention of this detail in Deuteronomy.
??? true, doesnt say he will speak Arabic or have a beard either. sorry about that, I will be sure to mention it when I next pray.
Isiah mentions it, and I think psalms is supposed to mention him by name but it probably missed out his middle ones so I wont go find it for you.
sorry got to go now, its been...........erm.....fun? ;D
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Can you provide evidence for your claim of "best form" means "perfect form"?
Thanks.
954 says "ahsan", , in the genitive, singular form. Oddly enough, it's also in the masculine form. "Best" means perfect, because if it could be improved upon, then it wouldn't exactly be the "best", now, would it? How can something be the "best form" if it needs to have part of it chopped off in order to live a happy and healthful life, as proponents of circumcision would claim?
When something is called the "best form", it means that it shouldn't be changed, because it is already perfect. In English it is a superlative.
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"Best" means perfect, because if it could be improved upon, then it wouldn't exactly be the "best", now, would it?
Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.
How can something be the "best form" if it needs to have part of it chopped off in order to live a happy and healthful life, as proponents of circumcision would claim?
Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
When something is called the "best form", it means that it shouldn't be changed, because it is already perfect. In English it is a superlative.
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.
Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?
Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.
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The circumcision of men is from the covenant made between Abraham and God back in Torah, Genesis 17. http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017&version=KJV
All men of the Abrahamic religion are to be circumcized, that includes Muslims ;D
Peace Ayisha,
So, by your logic, it's haram for Muslims to eat shrimp, crab, lobster, or any other shellfish too?
What about 638, 6114-15?
638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?"
6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
I guess what God MEANT to say was, "He has send down this book sufficiently detailed, except for the part about mutilating little boys. Sorry, my bad, not only did I mess up on creating men, but I forgot about that part... Dang, this weed is really messin' me up tonight".
You are quick to spout off these verses when it suites your needs, but when you feel like having masochistic tendencies, you completely disregard them!
Not only are you calling God a liar and an incompetent designer, but you are saying that he is a forgetful writer as well.If you have any question on which book supersedes which, just look at 619
619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.
I guess what God meant by "Quran" was actually "Torah"... I'm sure He can create some powerful weed.
Peace.
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Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.
Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?
Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.
Well we're obviously not in the "BEST form", if the 'better form" is one with foreskin removed, now, are we?
In the eyes of God, best = perfect. If it could be better, God would make it better. Why would God design us with a major flaw, then tell us we are in the "best form", which needs surgery to make better?
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Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
Wakas, rightly objected. Word 'Perfect" does not need comparison. While the elative "ahsan" is indicative of relativity. I don't know why "perfect" and "circumscion" caused some irritating confusion with reference to 9504 where there is no mention of "Perfect form". The compound used there is Possessive Phrase where the Possessive Noun is . "proportionally statured"; "exacting balance". It is the proportion that makes a man stand firm-which is the base meanings of the Root of Verbal Noun.
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Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.
Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?
Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.
according to some translators, ahsan to do perfectly, to perfect
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat32_files/32_7.gif
Khalifa
He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay.
Yusuf Ali
He Who has made everything which He has created most good He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,
Pickthal
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
Shakir
Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.
Sher Ali
Who has made perfect everything HE has created. And HE began the creation of man from clay;God also calls himself; ahsan-al-khaaliqeen.
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Like what?
You shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for yourself an idol
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighborthe 10 commandments given to Moses can be found in Exodus 202-17, 3411-27 and Deuteronomy 56-21 and Im sure you will agree they are also all in Quran, especially number 1 is there many times. There is not one there that cannot be found in Quran.
Salaam,
Yes, I am aware that the Torah is the first five books of the Bible.
Therefore by your argument, instead of abstaining from only 4 food namely blood, carrion, pork and food dedicated to idols (2173, 53, 6145 and 16115), we muslims have to abstain from food that is forbidden in the Torah (Leviticus 111-45)? The list includes animals with undivided hoof, sea animals with no fins or no scales, fowls that creep, birds of prey, carnivores and creeping animals. You may argue that God forbids different food to Jews because as punishment, but the forbidden food for Jews, as the Qur'an stated is (apart from the four food already forbidden for muslims) animals with claws and fats of oxen and cattle that touch the bones (6146) . Therefore tell me, out of the Torah and the Qur'an, which ones will you follow when it comes to the prohibitions of food?
Shall we then stone people guilty of adultery and witchcraft to death? Deuteronomy 222, Leviticus 2027.
Shall we too stone people guilty of apostasy to death? Deuteronomy 131-10
If you believe that the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible, to be confirmed by Qur'an, then I take it you believe the story of the Prophets in the Torah? Will you then believe that Lot became intoxicated and laid with his two daughters? Will you then believe that Jacob deceived Isaac in order to steal the blessing of his own brother?
There are many other things I can mention, but I will refrain. My point is, there ARE many commandments in the Torah that you do not find the Qur'an and the portrayal of the prophets in the Torah is oftentimes not as noble and honourable as in the Qur'an. In regards to Torah, I believe there is some truth and some errors. The Qur'an confirms the truth that you can find in the Torah, but not the errors. Since the Qur'an does NOT confirm circumcision, I do not take it as a commandment that should be imposed on mankind.
Salaam.
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God also calls himself; ahsan-al-khaaliqeen.
The Second Noun is Definite and Plural and in it is included Allah. Obviously all creators are not perfectionists. Here ahsan becomes superlative; amongst all the creators He is the Best. In fact it says He is the Best in creating everything in excellent proportion, both the thing itself and with regard to its proportion with everything else, which grants beauty and harmony all over.
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Well we're obviously not in the "BEST form", if the 'better form" is one with foreskin removed, now, are we?
In the eyes of God, best = perfect. If it could be better, God would make it better. Why would God design us with a major flaw, then tell us we are in the "best form", which needs surgery to make better?
You implied "best" means "perfect". In English, it does not.
Similarly, in Arabic, the relative term "ahsan" does not mean "perfect". Although, I'm sure it may be used like this somewhere, but not in AQ. Even in the example brought by RH, it does not prove anything.
I never said anything about "major flaw" or "needs surgery", so let's stick to the discussion at hand.
Human beings are not perfect, and their physical beings succumb to many problems, the only perfect being is God.
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You implied "best" means "perfect". In English, it does not.
Similarly, in Arabic, the relative term "ahsan" does not mean "perfect". Although, I'm sure it may be used like this somewhere, but not in AQ. Even in the example brought by RH, it does not prove anything.
I never said anything about "major flaw" or "needs surgery", so let's stick to the discussion at hand.
Human beings are not perfect, and their physical beings succumb to many problems, the only perfect being is God.
We're supposed to succumb to "many problems" though. We are not meant to live forever.. Therfore we are still in the best form.
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Human beings are born with defects/abnormalities and many other differences that differ from person to person. There are forms out there that are better compared to others, so this black and white interpretation of the verse won't work. It must then be pointing to something consistent or even generally and not specifically.
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true, doesnt say he will speak Arabic or have a beard either.
And the Qur'an does not assert that the Torah mentions these characteristics. It DOES however assert that the UNLETTERED prophet is mentioned in the Torah, whilst the prophet mentioned in deuteronomy is NOT described as such.
Isiah mentions it, and I think psalms is supposed to mention him by name
We are talking about the TORAH the definition of which supplied by you is "the first 5 books of the old testament". If you cannot provide a reference to the UNLETTERED prophet from those books then your claim that the Torah has not been corrupted by those entrusted with it is without foundation.
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And the Qur'an does not assert that the Torah mentions these characteristics. It DOES however assert that the UNLETTERED prophet is mentioned in the Torah, whilst the prophet mentioned in deuteronomy is NOT described as such.
We are talking about the TORAH the definition of which supplied by you is "the first 5 books of the old testament". If you cannot provide a reference to the UNLETTERED prophet from those books then your claim that the Torah has not been corrupted by those entrusted with it is without foundation.
Ok ;D
