Non-muslims in Jannah?
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If I too ignored logic, reason and what is actually presented in the quran as a whole, I would agree and band with you in mutual solidarity.
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If I too ignored logic, reason and what is actually presented in the quran as a whole, I would agree and band with you in mutual solidarity.
What is actually presented in the Qur'an page after page, surah after surah is that "believers will go to paradise", "kafirs will burn in hell". Sins comitted in ignorance are only forgiven if the sinner repents, believes and mends their ways. There is NO allowance made for people who die in ignorance of Muhammad or other messengers. If we accept your above assertion that people can come to a knowledge of Allah without direct or indirect exposure to the messengers and their messages then ignorance of these can be NO EXCUSE in the sight of Allah for lacking belief in the almighty, shirk and other unIslamic practices. Fault my logic.
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There's a point when repeating the same stuff becomes idiotic.
To anyone reading the thread who's interested/hoping to learn what the quran says about this topic, study the quran making sure that any conclusion reached is through a proper study of the terms involved, keeping all the verses involved with the concepts in mind (cross reference etc) and using logic and reasoning. This thread might help http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600433.0
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There's a point when repeating the same stuff becomes idiotic.
So stop idiotically repeating things like "The Qur'an says that Allah is 'just and merciful' therefore Allah wouldn't burn 'innocent' people in hell"
study the quran making sure that any conclusion reached is through a proper study of the terms involved, keeping all the verses involved with the concepts in mind (cross reference etc) and using logic and reasoning.
And let's try just this
Do you accept, Savage Carrot, that Allah has now sent messengers/warners to ALL peoples at some point in their history and there will be NO more messengers/warners sent to mankind? A simple yes or no will suffice
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What is actually presented in the Qur'an page after page, surah after surah is that "believers will go to paradise", "kafirs will burn in hell". Sins comitted in ignorance are only forgiven if the sinner repents, believes and mends their ways. There is NO allowance made for people who die in ignorance of Muhammad or other messengers. If we accept your above assertion that people can come to a knowledge of Allah without direct or indirect exposure to the messengers and their messages then ignorance of these can be NO EXCUSE in the sight of Allah for lacking belief in the almighty, shirk and other unIslamic practices. Fault my logic.
This logic seems to have been embeded in mind not because of study of Grand Qur'aan but oft repeated maxim;
"Ignorantia juris non excusat or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat .But the Supreme Sovereign of the Universes has a flawless system of justice based on absolute mercy. In that system none deserves and is liable to punishment until and unless he is informed and warned and made to know in simple and distinct/vivid words what should he abstain from doing. Allah the Supreme Judge considers the ignorance and unawareness as a strong defense plea for exoneration and takes upon Himself the responsibility to awaken people from their slumber, ignorance, neglectfulness and warn the humanity, and make them explicitly know, what they are required to abstain from so that the accused people could not take the plea in their self defense that they were not aware or were not made to understand the prohibitions. The justice par excellence demands that the Supreme Sovereign/The Authority establishes against an accused, beyond a shadow of doubt, that he committed the crime intentionally and willfully despite knowing and being fully aware of the prohibitions.
Superb System of Justice
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Allah the Supreme Judge considers the ignorance and unawareness as a strong defense plea for exoneration....
So provide the relevent Qur'anic passage(s) to support this claim.
and takes upon Himself the responsibility to awaken people from their slumber, ignorance, neglectfulness and warn the humanity, and make them explicitly know, what they are required to abstain from so that the accused people could not take the plea in their self defense that they were not aware or were not made to understand the prohibitions.
So how exactly is Allah HIMSELF going to awaken people from their slumber, ignorance etc? How will HE make them explicitly know what they are to abstain from? Will he send more warners like Muhammad? Will he speak directly to those on the wrong path? Will his mighty voice boom from the heavens informing wrongdoers the world over of the error of their ways and warning them of the dire consequences of persisting with their unIslamic beliefs and practices? How?
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DH,
I guess only Allah really knows that one. The only other reason I can think of is that Allah is some kind of sadist who revels in causing suffering to babies and their parents. Indeed, Allah says Let neither their wealth nor their children please you. Through these Allah seeks to punish them in this life (955)
What does this verse have to do with 'Allah is some kind of a sadist' ? It simply states that 'kafirs' are tormented through what they've gained. This has nothing to do with 'children suffering'.
Tell me this are the children of Israel also being 'punished' by the hands of allah? By your logic, Pharoah was on the right path! Those children suffered, so they had to have been disbelievers! See 249. Pharoah was a messenger from God, and the children of israel denied him, hence the torment!  According to the Qur'an mankind was sent a succession of messengers who told them to worship Allah alone. Thus "belief in God" is a product of prophethood. Therefore, according to the logic of the book of Allah, it is NOT possible for someone to believe in ALLAH AND do good works if he or his people have not at some point been informed of the existence of Allah by a prophet. It is of course possible for someone to DISBELIVE in god and do good works like helping the poor. However such people - atheists - will, according to the Qur'an, go to hell for their disbelief in Allah.
Instead of throwing darts at the wall hoping to hit some imaginary target, actually put forward Quranic evidence. Thanks.
No one is punished without first receiving a messenger (1715). Please tell me where in the Quran, atheists are mentioned. Thanks. Are you claiming only 'atheists' can be 'disbelievers'?
It's simple you are reciprocated for your own works (good and bad), without the least injustice (see 2281, 325, 330, etc). BABIES have no works! It is nonsensical to claim they can believers/disbelievers simply based on how they lived/died/'suffered'.What other explanation can you provide as to why Allah might inflict terrible suffering on apparently innocent babies?
Are you a televangelist?
There are a gazillion different reasons why 'babies suffer' and none of which has to do with God inflicting pain for his own amusement. If our fates are predetermined why is Moses being instructed in this way
"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has transgressed."
"So say to him soft words, perhaps he will remember or take heed." - 2043-44It's called Free Will. Babies have no Free Will, they are not psychologically mature enough to make any decision.
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DH,
What does this verse have to do with 'Allah is some kind of a sadist' ? It simply states that 'kafirs' are tormented through what they've gained. This has nothing to do with 'children suffering'. Tell me this are the children of Israel also being 'punished' by the hands of allah? By your logic, Pharoah was on the right path! Those children suffered, so they had to have been disbelievers! See 249. Pharoah was a messenger from God, and the children of israel denied him, hence the torment!  The verse refers to Allah punishing kafirs THROUGH/WITH THEIR CHILDREN. What do you think that might involve in practice? Simply saying "'kafirs are tormented through what they've gained" does not constitute an answer. Provide some examples of how Allah might use the Kafirs' children to punish them.
No one is punished without first receiving a messenger (1715).
All nations have now received messengers/warners (1636). Therefore ignorance can no longer be a defense.
Please tell me where in the Quran, atheists are mentioned.
Atheists clearly come under the category of those who deny Allah, his messengers and his signs.
Are you claiming only 'atheists' can be 'disbelievers'?
No.
There are a gazillion different reasons why 'babies suffer'
Provide just one.
It's simple you are reciprocated for your own works (good and bad), without the least injustice (see 2281, 325, 330, etc).
Indeed, and if Allah decides to leave a group of atheists or other wrongdoers isolated on an island in pig ignorance of the wrong they are doing to the end of their days and burns them in hell that is Allah's justice. If you are implying above that these atheists might somehow avoid hell through "good works" then you are deluding yourself I am afraid.
BABIES have no works! It is nonsensical to claim they can believers/disbelievers simply based on how they lived/died/'suffered'.
Why otherwise would Allah cause apparently innocent babies to suffer and die?
There are a gazillion different reasons why 'babies suffer'
Provide just one.
and none of which has to do with God inflicting pain for his own amusement.
Why otherwise would a being inflict pain for no apparent reason? If you saw someone pulling the wings of a fly for what reason would you imagine they were doing it?
If our fates are predetermined why is Moses being instructed in this way
"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has transgressed." "So say to him soft words, perhaps he will remember or take heed." - 2043-Allah guides whom he will and leads astray whom he will.
Babies have no Free Will, they are not psychologically mature enough to make any decision.
So why does Allah make babies suffer and then kill them before they develop faculties of judgement?