one world - one period of abstention
-
Salaam Ayman
I had answered all your points in my previous post. You still can't show that 936 is only addressing those who participate in "hagg"
Verse 936 informs us that the believers in general should not disrespect the restricted month by fighting in it - the exception is self-defense.
I can not and do not want to show that 936 is only addressing the participants of the hadj, this was not suggested in any way.
The rulings of following verses are valid for the believers during the four moons, not only for the participants of the hadj.Verse 936 ? the believers are not allowed to wrong themselves concerning the restricted month ? the exception is self-defense against the polytheists.
Verse 2217 ? the fighting in the restricted month is a grave matter but repelling from the path of God and evicting people from the ?masjid el haram- is worse.
Verse 2194 ? during the restricted month retaliation is allowed in case of aggression.
Verse 95 ? when the restricted months are over, the believers (within the context of a just war) are allowed to attack the idolaters.
Verse 91 in which the cancelling of a treaty is mentioned seems to confirm that the restricted moons are about regulating warfare.
Verse 92 states that even when the treaty with the idol-worshippers is cancelled - during the four moons there are no attacks.
Verse 94 states that only the non-aggressors of the idol-worshippers are not to be attacked by the army of the believers after the four moons are over.These verses seem to be conclusive Koranic evidence - the restricted moons are about regulation of conflicts.
and you still can't show a single verse in Chapter 5 where "hagg" is mentioned. On the other hand, hunting is clearly mentioned as forbidden while the person is restricted.
Verse 52 relates mainly to the hadj.
- animals to be offered
- the garlands to mark the animals
- the people who visit the restricted house
Is there another Koranic event where one sees those three elements together?
Another Koranic argument is verse 595, this verse has the following ruling if someone infringes the hunting-prohibition, this person has to bring the compensation to the Ka'ba.
Vers 595
- O ye who believe! kill not game while you are in a state of Pilgrimage. And whoso among you kills it intentionally, its compensation is a quadruped like unto that which he has killed, as determined by two just men from among you, the same to be bought as an offering to the Ka'bah; or as an expiation he shall feed a number of poor persons, or fast an equivalent number of days, so that he may taste the penalty of his deed.-
The Ka'ba is related to the hadj according to the Koran.
It is hardly imaginable that someone who is living thousands of miles from the Ka'ba and caught some wild game during the restricted moons, should travel all the way to bring the compensation to the Ka'ba. This is only possible if the believers are near to the Ka'ba and that is during the hadj.Your lengthy argument is full of appeals to emotions (first it was "unity" and now it is "confusing people" around the equator). People close to the equator are free to follow either southern or northern hemisphere timing just like people in the extreme northern regions can use common sense for "salat" timing since they have no sunset or sunrise during summer. But according to your logic they can't do "salat".
The arguments that where put forward were based on verses of the Koran and on basic geology and biology.
The scorching moon on many places of the world is not a reliable objective phenomena - as contrast to areas like Arabia, as far as we can know.
The assumed hunting-prohibition of four moons does not relate to protection of vulnerable animals with offspring in general.The double-timing system of the period of abstinence, the restricted moons and the hadj only leads to a lot of uncertainty and possible political manipulations.
This is contrary to the ruling of the Koran that the religion is not there to bring hardship, verse 2278.
Emotions or supposed logic about salat are not relevant until now, let us keep to the subject.Verse 2198
-You commit no error by seeking provisions from your Lord. When you file from `Arafaat, you shall commemorate God at the restricted location. You shall commemorate Him for guiding you; before this, you had gone astray.-This verse proofs that the hadj not is not only about food, but to remember the guidance of God - the Koran is the guidance from God.
We can be grateful for the provision we get from our Creator, but we can not be guided by it.
Verse 2228 and 2236 state that during the hadj God has to be remembered as the Provider, this is an aspect of the hadj - the broader aim is the remembrance of God as the Giver of guidance this concerns more aspects than the provision of food.The greater hadj seems to have the purpose to remember God and to put the Koran into practice in the best manner - a form of convention towards justice and peace.
Salaam,
Truthseeker171 -
Peace ayman,
The god also tells us about the "biggest" hagg (al-hagg al-akbar). There can only be a "biggest" one if there are others.
93 And proclamation from God and His messenger to the people day/time the hajj the greatest?
I believe referred to as greatest is day/time of the hajj not there is a little hajj and bigger hajj; they're equal.
Here is the clear purpose of "hagg".
- To witness benefits
- To remember the god ON WHAT HE PROVIDED FOR THEM FROM LIVESTOCK so they eat from it and feed the poor.
So even "remembering the god" is in the context of thanking him for the livestock that he provided us. Who do you think provided the harvest? People or the god? On the other hand, arguing/debating is a manmade and it would never bring different people together.
As for the greater "hagg", for the people of the book (and all people) this was the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice (the last of the restricted full-moons) when the harvest was greatest and just before it winds down.
Sounds much like Thanksgiving Day holiday in America.
http//www.thanksgivingactivities.familyhomelifestyle.com/index_files/First-Thanksgiving-Pilgrims.jpg
-
sun Dear All,
here is good news for all who dont understand the quranic ramadan, but now have it explained on this website, www.aastana.com, although the website is in urdu we have managed to translate the TRUTH ABOUT SAUM book by dr.Qamar Zaman who's great knowledge of the linguistics and arab grammer has made it possible to understand the Quran a bit more clearly..
p.s it is allowed to disagree and put your points forward on the blog
-
Salaam MINI
The topic is the double timing-system.
Anyway the link that you gave was interesting, but the claim that the truth about the period of abstinence is to be found there is not proven.Some remarks and questions
On page 23 is claimed that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into daily life.
- Can you mention one or more Koranic verses that indicate that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into the daily life?
As long this is not done we have to assume that the command of abstaining from food and drink is to be taken in a non-symbolical way.
Verse 2183 ? O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you, as it was decreed for those before you, that you may attain salvation.-
- Is the Jewish fast on -yom kippur- a mistake?
It would be very particular that the believers are only allowed to acquire knowledge and to apply this knowledge during the night and that this process is to be stopped at daytime.
Verse 2187 is clear about the time-frames of the abstention within a day.
If is not defensible to say that the process of acquiring knowledge of God?s decrees and to apply this knowledge, is bound by a time-frame of just a number of days.
Verse 2184 states that the -saum- is only for couple of days.
The believers should study the commands of God and apply them during the whole year, not a few days.The Koran mentions several ways of abstention, for instance
For the believers in general ? from food, drink and intercourse, verse 2187.
For Maryam ? not to speak, verse 1926, verse 1929 and 1930 confirm this.
Verse 1929 ? she pointed to him (without words)
Verse 1930 ? the infant Jesus speaks in stead of Maryam
If you suggest that the only aim of -saum- is to attain righteousness, then your suggest that Maryam had not attained righteousness, before her -saum-.
It is adviced to take care in saying these matters.The -shahr ramadan- lasts actually 3 days, the duration of the full moon not the disruptive 29 or 30 days.
The timing is linked to -lailat el qadr-, the arrival of the Koran, verse 971.
The believers can experience this period of abstinence as a form of remembrance of this important event and can hereby, in realising in a deeper sense the value of the Koran, attain more -taqwa-, respect for the Creator.On page 35 is claimed that -shahr ramadan- means to witness a serious condition.
Verse 2185 states that the Koran was sent down -anzila- during -shahr ramadan-, that is different from being there as a guidance for solving a problem as suggested on page 35.
The Koran is not sent down -anzila- whenever a serious condition occurs.
The Koran was sent down during lailat el qadr - vers 971.
We can not name every night in which a serious problem occurs a -lailat el qadr-.
Serious problems also can occur during daytime.Verses 2285 states further that the ill people and travellers can postpone the moment of fasting to other days that have to be counted.
- How can one suggest that -saum- means only to prevent a form of injustice, when verse 2185 states that the ill people and travellers are allowed to refrain form the -saum-?
This would imply that the ill people and travellers are allowed to join the injustice when it occurs and by choice could try to stop it later on.
This approach is hardly defensible.
Salaam,
Truthseeker171 - Can you mention one or more Koranic verses that indicate that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into the daily life?
-
Salaam Arista,
As said above an interesting article, but before you truly can claim that this approach makes much more sense you might consider following
On page 23 is claimed that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into daily life.
- Can you mention one or more Koranic verses that indicate that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into the daily life?
As long this is not done we have to assume that the command of abstaining from food and drink is to be taken in a non-symbolical way.
Verse 2183 ? O you who believe, fasting is decreed for you, as it was decreed for those before you, that you may attain salvation.-
- Is the Jewish fast on -yom kippur- a mistake?
It would be very particular that the believers are only allowed to acquire knowledge and to apply this knowledge during the night and that this process is to be stopped at daytime.
Verse 2187 is clear about the time-frames of the abstention within a day.
If is not defensible to say that the process of acquiring knowledge of God?s decrees and to apply this knowledge, is bound by a time-frame of just a number of days.
Verse 2184 states that the -saum- is only for couple of days.
The believers should study the commands of God and apply them during the whole year, not a few days.The Koran mentions several ways of abstention, for instance
For the believers in general ? from food, drink and intercourse, verse 2187.
For Maryam ? not to speak, verse 1926, verse 1929 and 1930 confirm this.
Verse 1929 ? she pointed to him (without words)
Verse 1930 ? the infant Jesus speaks in stead of Maryam
If you suggest that the only aim of -saum- is to attain righteousness, then your suggest that Maryam had not attained righteousness, before her -saum-.
It is adviced to take care in saying these matters.The -shahr ramadan- lasts actually 3 days, the duration of the full moon not the disruptive 29 or 30 days.
The timing is linked to -lailat el qadr-, the arrival of the Koran, verse 971.
The believers can experience this period of abstinence as a form of remembrance of this important event and can hereby, in realising in a deeper sense the value of the Koran, attain more -taqwa-, respect for the Creator.On page 35 is claimed that -shahr ramadan- means to witness a serious condition.
Verse 2185 states that the Koran was sent down -anzila- during -shahr ramadan-, that is different from being there as a guidance for solving a problem as suggested on page 35.
The Koran is not sent down -anzila- whenever a serious condition occurs.
The Koran was sent down during lailat el qadr - vers 971.
We can not name every night in which a serious problem occurs a -lailat el qadr-.
Serious problems also can occur during daytime.Verses 2285 states further that the ill people and travellers can postpone the moment of fasting to other days that have to be counted.
- How can one suggest that -saum- means only to prevent a form of injustice, when verse 2185 states that the ill people and travellers are allowed to refrain form the -saum-?
This would imply that the ill people and travellers are allowed to join the injustice when it occurs and by choice could try to stop it later on.
This approach is hardly defensible.
Salaam,
Truthseeker171 - Can you mention one or more Koranic verses that indicate that -sharab- means to apply knowledge into the daily life?
-
The -shahr ramadan- lasts actually 3 days, the duration of the full moon not the disruptive 29 or 30 days.
Dear truthseeker171,
Are you saying that the length of the MONTH of RAMADZAN is only 3 days? If so, please explain a bit more how you've come up with that.
Peace,
Khalil -
Salaam Khalil
For this subject relevant information can be found in
- the article Blind dating versus perfect timing http//www.free-minds.org/timing
- the thread -shahr ramadan- 3 or 10 days of abstention http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0
Salaam,
truthseeker171 -
Salaam Khalil
If you study the article -Blind dating versus perfect timing-, you can make up your own mind about the meaning of -shahr ramadan-.
One of the interesting items is the believers can witness a full moon and abstain it, but the believers can hardly witness a whole month and go back in time and abstain it - concerning verse 2185 - the Koran has no contradictions.
For an exchange of thoughts about this subject, it is better that you reply to following thread, because this thread is about the single or double Koranic timing-system.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0
Greetings and salaam,
truthseeker171 -
Salaam Khalil
If you study the article -Blind dating versus perfect timing-, you can make up your own mind about the meaning of -shahr ramadan-.
One of the interesting items is the believers can witness a full moon and abstain it, but the believers can hardly witness a whole month and go back in time and abstain it - concerning verse 2185 - the Koran has no contradictions.
For an exchange of thoughts about this subject, it is better that you reply to following thread, because this thread is about the single or double Koranic timing-system.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600410.0
Greetings and salaam,
truthseeker171Salaam Dear truthseeker171,
I did breeze through the article by Ayman. I do not agree with the usual illogical philosophy of his. He has all along been trying to REINVENT the ISLAAM, GOD?S only acceptable religion. He has all along been trying to press his UPSIDE DOWN, INSIDE OUT, and BACKWARD agenda in the name of the Qru?aan. I believe he has got a lot of explaining to do before GOD!
Please see the link below.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598886.msg249923#msg249923Peace,
KhalilP.S. Also, let us know what you understand from the verse 1825.
-
Salaam Khalil
Let us keep to the subject of the double timing-system on this thread.
Several believers can tribute to the studying and sharing of the message of the Koran.
In this process things can go right or wrong, but any exchange of thoughts can be fruitful in refinding the true way of reading the Koran - this can be a difficult process after the pollution of the religion during centuries by human traditions and human innovations - ahadeeth about Mohammad and ahadeeth from claimants of messengership after Mohammad.
It seems to be better to have an open mind for eachother opinions in stead of judging the persons behind the opinion.I know about the assumption that verse 1825 can be read as a reference to the existence of a solar- and a lunar year - (300 solar years is about the same as 309 lunar years).
Even according to this assumption the solar year is first.
The Koran is complete and perfect, we do not need these kind of assumptions to find the right way of counting the years.
If you read together verses 105, 1712 and 1247-49, than you might see that the solar year is in accordance with the Koran.
So the traditional linkage between the -hilal- and the period of abstinence seems to be a human innovation - reason enough to do an open minded research on this subject of the timing of fasting.Salaam and greetings,
truthseeker171 -
Dear truthseeker171,
GOD says that He did not send messengers unless speaking in the language / tongue of their own people. See 144.
My point in drawing your attention to 1825 was to point out that the calendar / timetable used by the people of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the lunar calendar, NOT the solar one. By the same token all Qur?aanic references pertaining to the daily, monthly, and yearly affairs of the people of that time and that place / Arabia, must be based on the lunar calendar as well.
The Qur?aan was an easy to understand guidance sent not to the philosophers, mathematicians, and or scientists, but to a very down to earth and mostly illiterate people at the time. It was an ORAL / VERBAL and NOT a written guidance. See 96 for clarification. The Qur?aan is NOT an ?intellectual? means of egoistical indulgence. So, shame on those who try to turn the word of GOD into VERBAL or NUMERICAL game book / SUDOKU PUZZLES!
GOD has sent us an easy to read and an easy to understand Qur?aan. So, pleeeeease, do not even try, to artificially make it to appear complicated and hard.
Peace,
Khalil -
Salaam Khalil
If you follow the Koran alone than you can see that verses 105, 1712 and 1247-49 indicate that the solar year is valid.
If you follow human made assumptions that verse 1825 indicates that there is a lunar count of the year, then you only proof that you have accepted sources next to the Koran as an authority for your religion.
As a believer to a believer I advice you to follow the Koran alone - not any manmade assumptions about for instance verse 1825.
The assumed arithmatical puzzle of verse 1825 is not easy to read and to understand that is contrary to what you indirectly claim and it does not proof the lunar year in any way.
By the way - according to the assumption about 1825, the solar year is still first.The assumption about verse 1825 seems to be rather recent, what about the believers before this arithmatical invention?
The followers of the Koran alone have verses 105, 1712 and 1247-49, proving the solar year, these verses are with the believers from the early time of Islam and are easy to grasp when the Koran is accepted as the sole guidance.By accepting ahadeeth - several basic Koranic rulings where changed.
I advice you to accept the Koran as your sole guidance, not any ahadeeth about Mohammad or from claimants of messengership or from anybody.
We have the verses of the Koran, that should be enough for the believers.I agree with you that we should not take the Koran as a numerical game book - but your reading of verse 1825 and the assumption that this proofs the lunar year is exactly that what you are warning against.
Salaam and greetings,
truthseeker171 -
first of all let us agree on what a shaher is ,
yes every one tell you it is a month ,well it is not .
all we know is that a shaher is present twelve times in a year.
and it is both lunar and solar.very well.
ok the prophet was told to tell us in the quran about the ahillat ,we need to use them so we know time of haj.good
so what is a shaher. it is the ahillat,but hey wait a minute am i saying that a month is from one ahillah to another.like maybe 26 days no not at all.
a ahillat is the combination of the hillals that is between or around five days. when the moon dies and there are those nights with out the moon then the moon is born again.those nights are what we call a shaher.yes those nights with out a moon.
yes that is a shaher and i will show you why. is is like only about five days.
and we have twelve of them in one year.so that we know the years.
good so it starts with the deiing of the moon to the birth of a new one,now why did allah tell us in the verse in the quran that we should come the homes from the door and not from the back,for if we count the ahiilat from the birth of a new moon then one shaher would be like 26 days but if come from the door of the shaher it will be like only five days.
strange what makes me say that,ok give one more minute.see about ashhur el haram,what could there be that we know them.
bare with me ,so now we know that a shaher is not the moon cycle,but the cycle of the ahillat.great,so how do we know ashhur al haram,we know from quran they are four.in one year four of those shahers have less nights then the ussuall ashhur.yes it is strange they are the shahers that come after the shaher of ramadan.and i will tell you how we know it is ramadan ,give me another minute.
onlythose ashhur all haram are seperate from eachother they like have two ashhur between them that are regular ashhur.in ahshur all haram their nights are only four and the rest of the ashhur have five nights.
so ashhur all haram are about four days long each and they are four.they come in pairs,this is what the test shows and often they are devided by a pair of regular shahers not months dont make the mistake of thinking a shaher is month.
it is a shaher ,the days and nights where one cannot see the mooon between the ahillat.
then we need to know when is ramadan.for it is true that the ashhur all haram start after the shaher of ramadan and that is what i have noticed.so know how do we know that ramadan has started.
or it is the coming shaher .
the quran tells us that the shaher of ramadan is a shaher of bayinat that we will be signaled with many signs to know it is it.
so let us see,since it is only a five night and day shaher as all the other regular shahers then it must be evident during the days that come before it that will give us all those signs.that it will be clear that this month is different.
so let us see together what are those signs.
1-the rain will start to fall again after a long summer.ramadan
2 change of season.
3-plants beggin to grow again.
4-the days stop form getting bigger and they start to get smaller.
5-one big moon in the sky and i mean really big. the biggest you can find all year round.the collor is different too.
6-the sun is different during sun set even after it sets those collors are differnt and the sun have a round shape we can see,with out hurting our eyes.it is also the biggest sun we can ever see.
7- all this in a few days likesome twenty days.or twenty six and can be found together with in that time frame.
6-some call the moon the harvest moon for the fulll moon during that time is full of light,and one can see very clearly.
so we get all those signs and then we know that the time this time when the moon is not there any more for those comming few days it is called the shaher of ramadan.yes five days we are ordered to fast those days without a moon.
during those days is lalayet al qadr.remmember when the quran says,(wa kan kaba qawsayne aw adna)yes between those too cresents when there is no moon to light the night,and there is only darkness it is the shaher.
the thing about those ashhur el hurum and ramadan well they dont change seasons,yes mostly ramadan is in september or october,and the hurum ashhur basically come,in march april and october december.
but do the experiments your selfs dont take my word for it.
inshaalah allah will lead us with the quran and nothing else,every thing else is shurk and will result in many ikhtilaf.
brother please forgive me if i have mistaken or mislead you in any way.
Allah knows best.
-
Peace brother Herbman,
The coming down of the great reading happened to be during the scorching full-moon, wherever that location was. Even within the northern hemisphere, the night rotates and at the exact point in Arabia when the great reading came down, it wasn't even night yet in other parts of the same northern hemisphere. The fasting is not tied to the great reading coming down. It is tied to witnessing of the scorching full-moon regardless of which point in the Northern or Southern hemisphere you are on. The great reading is not even coming down anymore.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all.
I agree with this observation by Ayman.
Fasting is not tied to the sending down of the qur'an. The sending down of the qur'an is only one event that occured during these nights of fasting. God did not tell us to celebrate - like some sort of an anniversary -- the sending down of the qur'an through fasting. There is no such thing.
What is clear is that we fast when we witness "the shahr."
Ramon O0
-
Salaam Ramon
Fasting is not tied to the sending down of the qur'an. The sending down of the qur'an is only one event that occured during these nights of fasting. God did not tell us to celebrate - like some sort of an anniversary -- the sending down of the qur'an through fasting. There is no such thing.
What is clear is that we fast when we witness "the shahr."This seems to be a good reading of the verse concerned.
The question remains if one sees the place of the sending down of the Koran - Arabia, as guiding for the timing of the -shahr ramadan- for the whole world, or does one accept a double timing-system.
The Koran was sent down during -shahr ramadan- on the Northern Hemisphere as far as we can know - so this might indicate the right timing.
The acceptance of a double timing-system would cause al lot of uncertainty for the millions of people living near the equator, when to abstain and when the -shahr haram- the restricted full moons would be.
Nowhere is stated in the Koran that from a certain geographical point the fasting and the restricted moons would be about half a year later.salaam
truthseeker171 -
Peace all,
just my 2 cents
Brother Ayman' argument seems to me more logical, you witness the full moon you fast, wherever you are, this will also fix the issu for the 2 poles, where the full moon cannot be witnessed during summer.
Regarding the numbers of days for fasting brother TH171's arguments seems to me more logical, you witness full moon you fast therein. The scorching full moon is the marker for begening and end.
Peace
-
all shaher is a time that has a begiining and and is markedwith an end.
they are the ahhillat ,the full moon could be a sign but it does not have a begginnig neither an end.
it just is and not any more.
pls reflect.
salam.
