Quran DIVINITY ( how to we know it has never been changed
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(Redundant post)
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Either way.....Edip is going to probabily think that you are just putting your faith in Religion without varifying anything and having absolutly no valid claim to answer to the Quran's Authenticity....and Ayman is going to say that if you believe in Code19 you are also a blind follower putting your faith in something that has absolutly no validity in the answr to the Quran's Authenticity.
Islam seems to have put itself on a terrible precipice by declaring that it's book is totally unaltered and claiming that even one alteration justifies non-belief. It's why I don't ever intend to concern myself with such a claim and am much more interested in the contents of the message rather than if every i and every t is in the book and if there is a code in the book preserving it.
I think we can go by the morality conveyed in each book. However that would take more than misquoting passages and dismissing whole books. Something we all love to do.
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Islam seems to have put itself on a terrible precipice by declaring that it's book is totally unaltered and claiming that even one alteration justifies non-belief. It's why I don't ever intend to concern myself with such a claim and am much more interested in the contents of the message rather than if every i and every t is in the book and if there is a code in the book preserving it.
I think we can go by the morality conveyed in each book. However that would take more than misquoting passages and dismissing whole books. Something we all love to do.
God wrote the entire universe from scratch. Do you see any break in the code, any mathematical fuckup? So if the master mathematician can code the universe with sheer ease then surely he can write a small book? If it is willed by the ALL-POWERFUL that "this book shall not be touched", just how difficult is it to understand that this book probably will not be touched by non-ALL-POWERFUL beings? Why have people not distorted the quran, instead they rely on distorting it through many additional volumes known as "hadeeth", "tafseer", translations, all warned about in the book? Because this book is damn well untouchable.
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God wrote the entire universe from scratch. Do you see any break in the code, any mathematical fuckup? So if the master mathematician can code the universe with sheer ease then surely he can write a small book? If it is willed by the ALL-POWERFUL that "this book shall not be touched", just how difficult is it to understand that this book probably will not be touched by non-ALL-POWERFUL beings? Why have people not distorted the quran, instead they rely on distorting it through many additional volumes known as "hadeeth", "tafseer", translations, all warned about in the book? Because this book is damn well untouchable.
I appreciate your point and why it is important to you. I also acknowledge that free-minds has a few code 19 people and that I frankly am not qualified to know if the code exists in the Koran. I have not the linguist skills in Arabic. However surely you understand that the message matters not the code? I would be sad if you believed the Koran because of the code 19 and not just because of the message in the Koran.
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I appreciate your point and why it is important to you. I also acknowledge that free-minds has a few code 19 people and that I frankly am not qualified to know if the code exists in the Koran. I have not the linguist skills in Arabic. However surely you understand that the message matters not the code? I would be sad if you believed the Koran because of the code 19 and not just because of the message in the Koran.
I don't believe for a second that the 19 code is anything but numerology, a pathologically proven system. Such things can never be used to presrve a text since the "code" is derived from the resultant text and so any distortions would be incorporated into the code and declared holy, how pathetic!
Rather I believe that the book is clearly written according to the divine measure, and it is the rules of physics that actually dictate that there is no changing the vibrational signature of the quran in space and time irrespective of the efforts of the dastardly beings in this universe.
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The problem I think you have is that you claim your book hasn't changed and someone else's book has and vice versa. Each side decides to believe what they believed to begin with and so no conclusions can be drawn (and probably someone is dead).
Personally I don't think your book has changed. Do I think word for word it is the same, not really, but I fully accept and am happy to work with the idea that what it contains is your view of God. All the major concepts got passed down adequately so that we can discuss them. This is what Christians think about their own books. I personally think that we both can accept that oral traditions were important to the tribes and people back then. Today I don't even know who my great grandma was but back then they memorised their linage and their name often reflected that linage. Similar the 'people of the book' were people of the book to preserve their culture. It seems desperate to assume they were 'people of the book' to corrupt their culture.
I think the core reason you think the Christian books have changed is because we don't idolise (poor choice of words) our prophets. What I mean is that all the OT prophets were used by God but nearly all of them had major faults and failings. In fact we use this as evidence that God is real. When Gideon defeats some army with 300 the stories purpose is to show that only God could have achieved this victory. God loves the prophets (all of us) but none of them are worthy.
I don't think codes can ever prove anything because they suffer from the same problem as the claim that the designed nature of the universe proves God It doesn't. And worse you set up the book for failure. If the code is false then the non-believer has evidence that the book is not from God and if the code is real then the non-believer has even better evidence that the book was designed.
The way to prove a book is false is to use it's premises as a basis for showing that it is false. At least this means that you have to venture beyond simply dismissing the other person's book as false. If it is false then what is in it will show that it is false. The lies and contradictions will surface.
The only problem with this avenue is the problem of context. Understanding why God might say do this morally questionable thing because I said. 9 times out of 10 we look in each others religion see wicked things and decide "Oh that can't be from God". Christians face this problem all the time when we discuss Christianity and get the Old Testament violence thrown in our face. I am sure Muslims face this problem all the time when you want to teach that Islam is the religion of peace and your opponents want to point out Mohammad's numerous conflicts. Christians are happy to argue context. The OT was for a struggling Israelite nation that was rebellious and the NT is for everyone. The NT is for everyone whereas the OT needs to be viewed through the lens of understanding what God was working with at the time. Muslims really can't argue context, why would God's final revelation have revelation that was specific to only a time and place. It would be simpler to cut those specific revelations out than leave them where they might be interpreted as guidance for us today. (Fair or not fair?)
Why not use a moral code test? If I can't abide by the morals then it isn't from God. We can easily see that if there was a book that said God wants you to kill and lie, etc" Then we would know this was not from God. Just the words be in each book, stop accusing corruption from either side and let the morality dictate.
Does the teaching fit my morality? Even the hypocrites love their children. So you would expect that they would be able to identify some similar morals in a religious book. So the book would have to at least match our current moral standards (assuming that our morals are not totally askew).
Does the teaching make my own view on morality seem immoral? Yes adultery is bad but then being told 'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' shows me that my own moral system is actually quite pathetic in comparison. You could argue that in the Koran the 'killing one is like killing all humanity' is a deeper morality. (is that what it says?)
I mean here is why I can't be a Muslim. Does your book teach morality and teach a deeper morality than the one that I have from the NT? If what I believe is right then God really wants me to turn the other cheek, not because it is sensible (because it clearly isn't sensible), but because the message is so important that winning earthly battles mean nothing. Saving the sinner is just more important than saving yourself. When Jesus was to be crucified (before being taken away as you believe) he washed the feet of his disciples, can you imagine? What sort of morality teaches that the master should be like the servant? My only conclusion is because God knows that only love reveals and love is service and God served on the front lines. It's just a much deeper morality than I could even muster alone and I haven't seen (or let's say understood) how the Koran and Islam provides a deeper morality than the book that came before it.
its really good to see that a christian brother here on a muslim site..shows that u are willing to learn more than wat u just know through ur own scripture..i want to share an incidence with you. a couple of days back i went to a church with a christian friend of mine..coz i am really interested in getting to know more about the "abrahimic" faiths. i went to this service, it was very interesting and i met a lot of very friendly people. i was later invited for dinner where some ppl just came together and after dinner had some time talking abt how to live..how to spend ur life and serve the kingdom etc..u know the discussion better than me )
u know wat..i liked the talk, i liked the ppl, i liked teh morality and teh values they were speaking of..and i liked spending time with them..but u know wat i realised that i was already familiar with all that...u said islam dusnt offer u the morality that christianity does..u know why it seems that way..coz right now there arent a whole lot of muslims who are just focusing on how to live evryday helping out others (unfortunately) there are some , dont get me wrong ..but majority are fighting over how many times to pray, wat to do with ur hands while praying, how to wash urslef properly ..wat length of beard is "pious" enough lol.
wat muslims arent focusing on is HOW to live their life caring for others like Allah did..like the prophet did..there was a reason why one person changed teh future of a whole nation..its not violence..how cud he? he was alone with just his wife to support him initially. but he was kindhearted.. he wud nurse ppl to health, the same people who wud throw trash on him and abusehim...he was known fr his truthfulness and tha tis why even when he started converying the message of God, the unbelievers still trusted him only with their treasures..even though they hated him. his enemies had nothing bad to say about his character. they called him a magician, poet..evrything..but never a liar..coz they knew no one cud believe that about him. wat im trying to get through to u is that i am contented with Islam because it teaches me to think of others before myself, to think of God and wat He wants rather than wat i want oout of this earthly life. Islam teaches me that even a random smile is a kindly deed..even a small thing like a smile can change teh attitude of someone u meet..have u ever tried that?its amazing )
i was surrounded by caring honest christians and i respected them so much, but i wasnt attracted to trinity or anything like that. coz trinity is not God serving His people..God was already doing that by sending prophets and books to guide us even when so many times humans refused the message and killed teh prophets..God loves the sinners according to christaianity..yes? well I believe God loves everyone but Hes just..how can he love one person who killed and tortured thousands of ppl as much as He loves someone who spends day and night in His service? Quran gives a sensible answer, not an emotional one....God loves us yes...that is why he guides us through His word and His Grace.but he loves those who do good, and those who honestly repent...
I honestly get confused with christianity, Jesus has never once claimed HIMSELF that he is God and worship him..but that he of his own cannot do anything. he used to pray as well...so he used to pray to himself? if he wasnt god at that time then who was God? trinity is very confusing and ,sorry if this offends u, illogical. its gives teh geneology of jesus, when he supposedly shudnt even have a geneology, seeing as he is claimed to be Gods son..and no its isnt Marys geneology since it clearly says Jesus's geneology. so yes christianity has morality, but u know wat the quran has? it has morality and logic and scientific backing...there are many scientific errors in the bible..showing that man has mishandled it many times..but as science has progresses discoveries have led scientist to realise how accurately Quran tells us about stuff like the water cycle, the embro development, geology even...dont simply believe my words..check them out fr urself. you tube scientific miracles of quran if u want an overview of them...quran preaches peace..and also turning teh other cheak, it encourage us to FORGIVE.
all im saying is...do ur own research..theres no harm in reaching out and reading quran..and there cud be evrything to gain )
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its really good to see that a christian brother here on a muslim site..shows that u are willing to learn more than wat u just know through ur own scripture..i want to share an incidence with you. a couple of days back i went to a church with a christian friend of mine..coz i am really interested in getting to know more about the "abrahimic" faiths. i went to this service, it was very interesting and i met a lot of very friendly people. i was later invited for dinner where some ppl just came together and after dinner had some time talking abt how to live..how to spend ur life and serve the kingdom etc..u know the discussion better than me
Well it seems like the culture clash of the 21st century is the West and Islam.u know wat..i liked the talk, i liked the ppl, i liked teh morality and teh values they were speaking of..and i liked spending time with them..but u know wat i realised that i was already familiar with all that...u said islam dusnt offer u the morality that christianity does..u know why it seems that way..coz right now there arent a whole lot of muslims who are just focusing on how to live evryday helping out others (unfortunately) there are some , dont get me wrong ..but majority are fighting over how many times to pray, wat to do with ur hands while praying, how to wash urslef properly ..wat length of beard is "pious" enough lol.
That's why I like free-minds. It seems people here recognise much of Islam is ritual. To my mind what does God need or want you to prostate yourself 5 times a day. I still don't get it.wat muslims arent focusing on is HOW to live their life caring for others like Allah did..like the prophet did..there was a reason why one person changed teh future of a whole nation..its not violence..how cud he? he was alone with just his wife to support him initially. but he was kindhearted.. he wud nurse ppl to health, the same people who wud throw trash on him and abusehim...he was known fr his truthfulness and tha tis why even when he started converying the message of God, the unbelievers still trusted him only with their treasures..even though they hated him. his enemies had nothing bad to say about his character. they called him a magician, poet..evrything..but never a liar..coz they knew no one cud believe that about him. wat im trying to get through to u is that i am contented with Islam because it teaches me to think of others before myself, to think of God and wat He wants rather than wat i want oout of this earthly life. Islam teaches me that even a random smile is a kindly deed..even a small thing like a smile can change teh attitude of someone u meet..have u ever tried that?its amazing
Helping others is good and has its own rewards.i was surrounded by caring honest christians and i respected them so much, but i wasnt attracted to trinity or anything like that. coz trinity is not God serving His people..God was already doing that by sending prophets and books to guide us even when so many times humans refused the message and killed teh prophets..God loves the sinners according to christaianity..yes? well I believe God loves everyone but Hes just..how can he love one person who killed and tortured thousands of ppl as much as He loves someone who spends day and night in His service? Quran gives a sensible answer, not an emotional one....God loves us yes...that is why he guides us through His word and His Grace.but he loves those who do good, and those who honestly repent...
It sounds like you had a good dose of Christianity that day so I won't go on.
I honestly get confused with christianity, Jesus has never once claimed HIMSELF that he is God and worship him..but that he of his own cannot do anything. he used to pray as well...so he used to pray to himself? if he wasnt god at that time then who was God? trinity is very confusing and ,sorry if this offends u, illogical. its gives teh geneology of jesus, when he supposedly shudnt even have a geneology, seeing as he is claimed to be Gods son..and no its isnt Marys geneology since it clearly says Jesus's geneology. so yes christianity has morality, but u know wat the quran has? it has morality and logic and scientific backing...there are many scientific errors in the bible..showing that man has mishandled it many times..but as science has progresses discoveries have led scientist to realise how accurately Quran tells us about stuff like the water cycle, the embro development, geology even...
You know the fact that Jesus never claimed to be God is exactly what I love the most. It is you, reading the Bible that eventually has you realise that he must have been. It's like a light bulb that switches on.
dont simply believe my words..check them out fr urself. you tube scientific miracles of quran if u want an overview of them...quran preaches peace..and also turning teh other cheak, it encourage us to FORGIVE.
all im saying is...do ur own research..theres no harm in reaching out and reading quran..and there cud be evrything to gain
peace
I've looked at some of the scientific miracles claimed in the koran and I find it hard to believe even Muslims take that stuff seriously. I'm yet to see one proposed miracle that even I could say 'hmm that seems right'. Most stretch the imagination. But each to their own. -
brother quite honestly if ur not willing to recognise truth in th verses that relate to science in the quran then well thats up to u..but well known scientist are known to have accepted that quran is the word of God becoz theres no way a man living in a desert hundreds of years ago cud have possibly known correctly the stages of human fetus development. plus it explicitly states that th e universe is expanding..something we have just recently discovered..
plus a bit of a correction..i think im speaking for most of the ppl here when i say that ISLAM isnt about traditions and physical acts...MOST muslims perceive it that way coz its much easier to just grow a beard and pray 5 times and THINK ur close to God by doing that..but much harder to be a true submitter and living ur life submitting to God's Will. its not Qurans fault or Islam's..merely of those who dont follow it quite right.
and yes ur right, i got a good dose of christianity that day..but u know wat..after that i have never EVER been more satisfied with Islam, because it gives me both morality and justice and a sense of responsiblity for my own actions.
peace
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brother quite honestly if ur not willing to recognise truth in th verses that relate to science in the quran then well thats up to u..but well known scientist are known to have accepted that quran is the word of God becoz theres no way a man living in a desert hundreds of years ago cud have possibly known correctly the stages of human fetus development. plus it explicitly states that th e universe is expanding..something we have just recently discovered..
)plus a bit of a correction..i think im speaking for most of the ppl here when i say that ISLAM isnt about traditions and physical acts...MOST muslims perceive it that way coz its much easier to just grow a beard and pray 5 times and THINK ur close to God by doing that..but much harder to be a true submitter and living ur life submitting to God's Will. its not Qurans fault or Islam's..merely of those who dont follow it quite right.
Well that is encouraging.
and yes ur right, i got a good dose of christianity that day..but u know wat..after that i have never EVER been more satisfied with Islam, because it gives me both morality and justice and a sense of responsiblity for my own actions.
I would love to know what you mean by morality. To me morality is something innate to all people that has them know when they are doing right or wrong. Is that your understanding? -
brother quite honestly if ur not willing to recognise truth in th verses that relate to science in the quran then well thats up to u..but well known scientist are known to have accepted that quran is the word of God becoz theres no way a man living in a desert hundreds of years ago cud have possibly known correctly the stages of human fetus development. plus it explicitly states that th e universe is expanding..something we have just recently discovered..
And how many of us even today know this information
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/069.%20Al%20Haqata/69.12a.jpg
and it may be remembered by an ear that acts as receptacle for retaining.How many in the world even today know that an Ear has a memory?
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Mazhar, please provide evidence before claiming this.
Indeed the entire physical universe possesses a memory. Each new moment remembers each and every single last one in clear detail and this is how the concept of "al-kitab" in the quran works.
How do we know the quran has not been changed? At the time it was sent down, people did not possess knowledge of the sheer power such a book had. However their minds were open to believing in a wider range of ideas than us merely because the existing knowledgebase was small. They propogated the quran and enforced its decrees, voluntarily or involuntarily.
Nowadays, we have a more established knowledge of physical reality. If a book as seemingly vague as the quran was sent down now, such a book would not really have any preservation power because now the majority of people think "a book is just a book" and who could blame them when there are so many books in existence each saying something different to the other?
If someone picked up the only written quran back when it was revealed and burnt it to ashes, the book would not have survived. It is like a baby caterpillar that managed to crawl through pesticide and then morphed into a magnificent butterfly then took over the earth by the sheer beauty of its wings. Earth loves the quran otherwise it would not be here.
Now, the quran is indeed "just a book amongst many" but it carries so much power over the people that nobody on planet Earth has any means by which to change it. Thus it is fixed as a constant in time.
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And how many of us even today know this information
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/069.%20Al%20Haqata/69.12a.jpg
and it may be remembered by an ear that acts as receptacle for retaining.How many in the world even today know that an Ear has a memory?
Mazhar, please provide evidence before claiming this.
Please, have you analysed the words of Qur'aan depicted above in Original text.
Ear is singular and is indicated as Active Participle of Root "Waw Ain Ya" which means to "save something, place in recepticle, memorize". Qur'an says Ear has a memory, is it not the final proof.
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Find a contradiction in the Quran and prove with sufficient evidence that it is a contradiction, if you are successful at that then it has been changed, however to do that first you have to study it, no cut and paste. peace