Fundametal Model(by servant of light) is it possible?
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Abdun nur
you can not sell what you do not own, only a thief would do such a thing, do you own anything that belongs to Allah?
That is true we cannot sell what we do not own except by POWER OF ATTORNEY, What if Allah gives us POWER OF ATTORNEY dear nur?
Have you gone through the following verseAl-Quran
O ye who believe ! devour not your property among yourselves by unlawful means, except that you earn by trade with mutual consent. And kill not your people. Surely, Allah is Merciful towards you.I am sure you would had, than what is your explanation to this verse?
Before we go on any further in our discussion. -
Salaam Raaajah,
I'm glad you have a legislated contract, or think you could obtain any document from Allah giving you the power of attorney over Allah's personal property, I'd like to see the signature written on it. You wish to trade with Allah's property, as you have high lighted in red... Well I don't really know what point you think you are making.
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Salaam Abdun nur,
the property belongs to Allah and he has given us power of Attorney to buy and sell (trade) his property until the time we are living on his Earth, The Ayat is his signature.
As he is the one who has send us to his Earth and has allowed us to use each and every thing belonging to his Earth for certain period of time, as we wish under some basic framework according to Quran.
This is what I understand from the above mentioned Ayat, but you have not answered me by showing what do you mean or understand by this Ayat.Some one asked GOd
"Did i solicit you to bring me out of darkness?" -
This is the complete concept including historical and legal aspects.
Allodial Earth.
This is the first conceptual model outline, of four basic models that combined to manifest Islam. It maybe necessary to understand all four models before fully understanding each model independently.
To Allah belongs everything in the heavens and the earth, and Allah is the only Protector.
2 255 - 2284 - 3109 - 3129 - 3189 - 4126 - 4131 - 4170 - 4172 - 517 - 518 - 5120 - 612 - 7128 Etc.All the Earth is allodial by its very nature, as are the fruits of the Earth, as we did not create the abundance upon the earth, only enjoy its rewards.
An example
If I plant a field of watermelons, the watermelons are the bounty of Allah, grown from the earth and out of the seed, and from the design of Allah, but the physical labour you invested in the planting of the seed, the preparing of the land, the harvesting and marketing of the watermelons, is what you have honestly earned and deserve in reward of your labour, so when you sell the watermelon, the watermelon itself is free, as it is the bounty of Allah, but the labour it took to reach its end user and consumer must be paid by the end user and consumer.
Allah has provided you the materials, while you provide the labour, human energy is the true economy of Islam.
In the modern age men sell the bounty of Allah, they profit from the abundance, they monopolise it and enslave their fellow man through the concept of ownership, but who gave them the right to sell something that they do not own?
Who established they had a right to buy and sell the property of Allah, the Earth and its abundance?
Who ever it was, was a thief!
To buy and sell stolen goods, is bad enough, but to buy and sell the stolen goods of Allah, takes a brave man indeed.
This is the Islamic model of ownership.
Allodial right is a situation where real property (land, buildings and fixtures) is held free and clear of any encumbrances, including liens, mortgages and tax obligations. Allodial title is inalienable, in that it cannot be taken by any operation of law for any reason whatsoever, (beyond the single intentional actions of manifesting long term damage to surrounding property.)
Allodial lands are the absolute property of their custodian and not subject to any service or acknowledgment to a superior, this concept denies the legal power of municipal and state governments to tax property, (if they were in existence) on the basis that allodial title cannot be alienated by failure to pay those taxes.
Allodial title cannot be alienated by seizure by a creditor, as the claim of the foreclosure by the mortgagee is illegal. However, by its nature, allodial title cannot be mortgaged in the first place, and an attempt to create allodial title on land that is subject to encumbrance by debt is impossible.
Within Islam the entire Earth is Allodial by its very nature.
Although allodial title cannot be lost, that also means that it cannot be transferred or encumbered without losing its allodial status. As such, when a property custodian dies and leaves custodianship to more than one heir, the conceptual allodial status of the property is lost, this situation must be resolved as quickly as possible, so re-establishing the correct Allodial status, the property must be divided, sold or agreement of the parties to settle and establish a single custodian (Caliph). This process failing to be accomplished the title reverts back to the community it exists within.
Allodial title cannot be mortgaged (as is common in a usury system). Moreover, as liens cannot attach to allodial title, it is difficult to finance improvements (if considered from the perspective of a usury system), to a property held in allodial title as, once incorporated to the singe custodian, the improvements become part of the allodial title and become exempt from lien or seizure of the property to pay a contractor's bill. The burden of responsibility to honour these debts, if established, is solely upon the custodian personally, the fruits generated from the property, personally by the custodian could be seized, as they represent the wealth, the labour invested within the produced goods from the property.
Allodial title cannot, in theory, be legally taken away against the will of the custodian. However, an allodial custodian can contractually give up allodial custodianship and that allodial custodianship can be restored or sold (added value only) or passed on to a single heir. Allodial title cannot be exchanged by fraud, only by legitimate contract. (For example you could not use your allodial property as a stake for a wager, just as much as the collateral for a loan.)
Allodial property can not be owned by a corporation, being a group recognised as an individual by law, being a group colony of individuals, working in unity against the community for their own benefit. Only single individuals can hold allodial rights and custodianship.
All property is Allodial, property without a custodian is held in trust by the local community, and allotted to individuals when the community feel it appropriate. Otherwise it remains open to all to enjoy, and for local community projects.
Land alone can have no saleable value, it can be given or exchanged for equal land in another location, but not sold, as it is in custody only, however the fixed labour invested in the land, labour integral that forms added worth, such as making the land arable, buildings, crops; seasonal or annual, like trees; all have value and can be sold with the transferred obligations of the custodianship of the land which attaches no cost.
If you irreparably damage the land, as its custodian, through contaminating it with poisons, damage its nature with cross specie genetically modified crops, making it radioactive, any long term effects that detrimentally effect not just your allodial land, but the surrounding lands, of intentional assault, breaks the covenant and so voids the custodianship, and holds those responsible accountable for the cost and effort, of rectifying the surrounding contamination. If the custodian damages their Allodial land without effecting any surrounding land it is a crime between the custodian and Allah. But these abuses would have a bearing on the local community allocating new allodial custodianship in any future applications.
As the entire Earth, categorically, is allodial, the substance of the Earth itself would also be allodial, for example the minerals of the earth are free in and of themselves, it is only the labour and small equipment charge, and the cost of any consumables used, in the extraction and purification and delivery of the minerals, that could be charged for something which no person could own, (you would own the added value invested in the minerals after extraction and processing, so in effect own the minerals through that action, much like land use and the fruits it bears), only your labour within an allodial system would be chargeable above the overheads, the same concept would apply to crops and fruits, the labour value would be charged and overheads, the bounty of Allah would always be freely given, and when true Muslim intent was prevalent, this system would invigorate commodities, no market of exploitation to hype the price beyond reason, no futures market to speculate on production, no investment market to gamble on price fluctuations, no monopolies to extort undeserved rewards from the weak and powerless.
For a sovereign to claim ownership and sell rights to mine any of these fruits of the Earth, is against Islam, these things of the Earth are the bounty of Allah, they cannot be sold, or monopolised.
Modern land law.
Ownership of property.
The first thing to note about the legal profession is the abuse of the word law, as they exchange it so easily for what should be known as legislation, so what is legal is legislation and what is lawful is common law. So they attempt to confuse others with this abuse, in reality the legal profession knows very little about the law, but can be experts on legislation. I wish to now examine both legislation and common law.The extent of personal land ownership, founded in definition, from the subjugation by force of arms of 1066, within England formally Albion
'Cuius est solum eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos'
Which means
'He who owns the land owns everything 'up to the sky and down to the centre of the earth'.This is legislated away with the following legislative acts
?In terms of downward ownership so that coal and gas found under land are now subject to public (meaning Crown) ownership.(Petroleum Act 1934- Coal Industry Act 1994) Other than that, items found buried in the soil are yours, unless constituting treasure trove,(Treasure Act 1996) in which case the treasure belongs to the crown...?(Oxford Modern land law 4th edt)
In the case of civil aircraft, the matter is regulated by statute, Section 76 of the Civil Aircraft Act 1982.
A statute is a formal written enactment of legislative authority that governs a city, state or country. Again not law but legislated rules, so only binding upon registration to the corporate legislating body, being the Government in this case, also known as the Crown Corporation.?One speaks of ownership of a car yet, in the context of land, one does not, technically, refer to ownership of the land; instead, an abstract entity, known as an 'Estate' was created and one's ownership rights are defined by this abstract entity.?(Introduction to the Law of Property. 195
Modern legislative law is based upon the concept of the corporation, to perform this trick, they must create the fiction of the corporation to apply upon the natural person, or the property of the natural person, without this fiction they would have no basis to act. This is the reason they will apply a title before your name in court, Mister, Mrs, Master, Miss, etc. or use a title in place of property as in estate. The entire land ownership fraud is based on fictions of law.
Within Common law it is prohibited for a state, corporation or sovereign to exist, it is against common law. And the sovereigns know this, but do not want you to.
A corporation is an artificial person, invisible, intangible, and existing only in contemplation of legislation. Being the mere creature of legislation, it possesses only those properties which the charter of its creation confers upon it, either expressly or as incidental to its very existence. The attributes of the corporate structure are
Immortality - allowed through a perpetual succession of many persons considered as the same so acting as a single entity.
Individuality ? enables a corporation to manage its own affairs, hold property without perplexing intricacies, of the hazardous and endless necessity of perpetual conveyances needed to transmit ownership from hand to hand.
A franchise - clothing bodies of men in free succession, with qualities and capacities capable of acting for the promotion of a particular object, like one immortal being.
A body politic ? vested under a special denomination of legislation, to act as a united will of unified power, undisturbed by the change of members, enjoying legislated rights and privileges.
Limited liability ? this possesses many advantages to the corporation, it supports the suppression of financial liabilities, in compensation, reparations, remunerations; and in personal accountability, cloaking the guilty in the blanket of the corporate fiction, so limiting personal accountability of environmental destruction and pollution, social exploitation and enslavement; take the food chain, corporate employees defiling plants, animals and humans with poisons, genetically modified perversions of nature, chemical infusion etc. acting with impunity; also stealing with deceptions, creating wars, hardship, terrorism, taking away human liberties and natural rights from communities, families and individuals. Additionally leaving creditors empty handed if the fiction of the indebted corporation is dissolved. This allows the corporation to externalise the greater portion of the risks of financial and moral liabilities, imposing them upon society at large.
Monopoly ? corporations of themselves are giant monopoly privileges, using the construct of copy right, economy of scale, dictating price and terms of supply and legislation of privileges; such as the printing of money for the cost of printing in the case of the Central Corporate Banks for example, being a coercive monopoly. Even in the small scale corporation is structured on monopoly, taking the fruits of the labour of the employees and monopolising this to the advantage of the financiers. Another simple example of coercive monopoly would be Microsoft, were they dominate through enforced copyright, resulting in a poor quality product almost free of competition. The state itself is the most extreme coercive monopoly as they use violence and intimidation to enforce a perceived compulsory monopoly.
The roots of the corporation go back deep into history, the word "corporation" derives from corpus, the Latin word for body, or a "body of people". The structure of corporations existed in ancient Roman and the ancient Indian Empire of Maurya, and continued into the modern world from its ancient existence, from the evolution of the failed brutal Roman Empire, as it collapsed under the exploitations of usury, transforming into the blind faith and mental enslavement of the Roman Catholic Church, the largest corporation in the world, as it incorporates many subordinate corporations within it.
Common law ownership
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Inalienable rights also known as natural rights or universal rights. Only through trickery and confusion can we be robbed of them, this being the job of the legal profession, this means they work to prevent you having allodial property ownership, as this would be an inalienable right, they create a fiction which is the abstract entity of estate as described above.?English law has never embraced the concept of absolute ownership of land. The closest it has come to doing so is when a person is registered as the proprietor of land with an absolute title. Even then, however, as will be seen, that person's title is not indefeasible. Where title to the land is unregistered, this is even more the case. All that a person can do is to demonstrate that he has the better right to possess the land than anyone else.?(Modern Land Law 4th edn.)
English law only existed upon the creating of the constructs established from 1066, in subduing the original Albic nation, which was an allodial land system, and additionally not a Roman Catholic enclave. (See 'Rex Offa of Mercia (Northern Britain))
How do they justify their right to buy and sell the earth?
?To make better rights impossible the proof would have to start with the granting to Adam and Eve, but even then this was save and except the Garden of Eden, and one is not even sure if they took as joint tenants or tenants in common....?(Ferrand, Contract and Conveyance 4th edn.)
"to work it and watch over it,"(Bible, Old Testament, Genesis)
The very foundation of the legal right establishing the Sovereigns ownership, to buy and sell, is a lie, never were Adam and eve given the Earth as owners, only as custodians with obligations and restrictions.
?After the Norman invasion in 1066, a rigorous feudal structure was imposed upon the country. Central to it was the notion, still true to this day, that all the land belonged to the Crown.- This process led to the formation of a feudal pyramid.?(An Introduction to the History of Land Law 1961 Ch. 1)
William the Bastard (Conqueror) never purchased the land of Albion, nor took any legal ownership that would be supported, he murdered the allodial property owners and held it by force, changing the name from Albion to England, which explains this
?The fact of possession of a chattel of itself gives to the possessor a possessory title and the possessor is entitled to rely on such title without reference to the circumstances in which such possession was obtained; his entitlement to do so is not prejudiced by the fact that he obtained such possession unlawfully or by an illegal transaction.?(Ibid. At 157. Contrast Hibbert v. McKiernan 194
William the Bastard was in subjugation to the Pope, and established the Crown as owner of the land and all upon it, later King John of England (king 6th April 1199 - 19th Oct 1216) was excommunicated from the Church, to meet these demands to be re-embraced he surrendered the crown rights of ownership to the Roman Catholic Church, making them the Crown corporation, so the legal but not lawful owners of England, given as a Papal Legate to Bishop Pandulph in May 1213.
Two years later, at the point of a sword King John signed the Magna Carta Libertatum (the Great Charter of Freedoms ? 1215). This charter was written by the Arch Bishop of Canterbury Stephen Langton for the protection of the contract establishing the Church as coporate owner of England, through the manipulation of the Barons and lords. However Pope Innocent III public declared outrage at the "shameful and demeaning agreement, forced upon the King by violence and fear." He rejected any call for restraints on the King, saying it impaired John's dignity. He pretended it was an affront to the Church's authority over the King and the 'papal territories' of England and Ireland, and he released John from his oath to obey it, of course the Barons and Lords made certain it was obeyed. The Crown Corporation is the legal owner of England, as maintained through legal fictions, standing in direct conflict with Law.
?It remains theoretically true to say that all land is held from the Crown. The idea that one does not actually own the thing itself but rather has an interest in it, is also what underlies the theoretical basis of landholding in this country?(Modern Land Law 4th edn)
?..it is now assumed that an owner of land holds directly from the Crown as tenant in Chief but without the provision of any service in respect of that holding. The effect of the statute 'Quia Emptores' is that, when a house is sold, the purchaser replaces the vendor as the tenant in chief, holding the land directly from the Crown.?(Modern Land Law 4th edn)
'the plaintiff cannot recover but upon the strength of his own title. He cannot found a claim upon the weakness of the defendant's title. For possession gives the defendant a right against every man who cannot show a good title.'(Roe d. Haldane v. Harvey 1769)
?Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public (Crown)interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law(meaning legislation) and by the general principles of international law.(meaning international legislation)?(Human Rights Act 1998 Article 1)
?Section 15 of the Limitation Act 1980 provides that no action shall be brought by any person to recover any land after the expiration of twelve years from the date on which the right of action accrued to him, or if first accrued to some person through whom he claims, that person.? (Modern Land Law 4th edn)
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Dear Abdun nur,
I had read much of what you posted at your site, so nothing was new for me here except few lines. Dear I am asking you about the particular verse and you have not commented on it.
Abdun nur
The very foundation of the legal right establishing the Sovereigns ownership, to buy and sell, is a lie, never were Adam and eve given the Earth as owners, only as custodians with obligations and restrictions.
Quran contradicts your claim! Allah has sent us to his Earth with his WILL and has given us power of Attorney to use/Trade each and every commodity/property with mutual consent and to write down whatever we sell or buy and have two witnesses to it.
(3826) "O David! We did indeed gave you the rule on the earth, so decide between men in truth, and do not follow the lust of their hearts, for they will mislead you from the path of Allah."
2282
O you who believe, when you transact a loan for any period, you shall write it down. An impartial scribe shall do the writing. No scribe shall refuse to perform this service, according to GOD's teachings. He shall write, while the debtor dictates the terms. He shall observe GOD his Lord and never cheat. If the debtor is mentally incapable, or helpless, or cannot dictate, his guardian shall dictate equitably. Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her. It is the obligation of the witnesses to testify when called upon to do so. Do not tire of writing the details, no matter how long, including the time of repayment. This is equitable in the sight of GOD, assures better witnessing, and eliminates any doubts you may have. Business transactions that you execute on the spot need not be recorded, but have them witnessed. No scribe or witness shall be harmed on account of his services. If you harm them, it would be wickedness on your part. You shall observe GOD, and GOD will teach you. GOD is Omniscient.2283
And if you are traveling or do not find a scribe, then a pledge of collateral. If you trust each other then let the one who was entrusted deliver his trust, and let him be aware of God, and do not hold back the testimony. And whoever holds it back, then he has sinned in his heart, and God is aware of what you do.It is very clear from the Ayats I have mentioned that Allah allows us to buy and sell each and every thing that belongs to Him for certain period of time, because it is his in the end.
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Salaam Raajah,
as I can see there is nothing to comment on, what are you saying you are presenting as an objection, you have not read the revised version, as it is not a few lines that have altered, you continue to point out nothing, how can I comment on nothing?
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Peace All
It seems to me that there is much comment on the models that Abdunur is presenting without reading the model. This is not acceptable from a Quranic perspective. Just because something does not sit right with one, does not give license to comment without investigation. I make these comments simply because it is quite clear that the models have not been read, let alone studied.
I'm sure there are some of you who have read the models, and I look forward to your comments on them.
we are Gods vicegerents on earth and the quran says this
Kurt, I think this understanding stems from the word "khalifa". In my opinion, it does not mean vicegerent. It means successor. Also, it is not successor to God, but to previous people, understanding that Aadam is representative of humankind, successor to previous people on earth, but this is another discussion, which can be dealt with on a separate thread.
The responsibility that we have is contained within 9111. God had purchased from the mu'minoon their possession and their nafs and exchange given them jannah. This, in effect means that everything we "own" is left in trust with us and must therefore be bound by the laws pertaining to trust "amaanah". I suggest looking up the verses pertaining to amaanah to better understand what our rights an responsibilities are in that regard.
I think the point is that we are required to keep open the resources for all creation. This is clearly illustrated in the story of Salih and the Thamud (see 773-79) in relation to the she camel. If the resources were to be kept open for the grazing of the camel, how much more so should they be kept open your human beings.
Imraan
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Abdun nur
Salaam Raajah,
as I can see there is nothing to comment on, what are you saying you are presenting as an objection, you have not read the revised version, as it is not a few lines that have altered, you continue to point out nothing, how can I comment on nothing?I think you have to revise this many many times more dear nur.
I pointed out that Allah allows to buy and sell the land which you say we cannot.
You saidAllodial ownership (As Allah is the owner of the Earth, so you cannot buy and sell what you do not own)
First part of the statement is according to Quran second part is lunatics dream.
This system is not practical if it would had been, there would have been at least one example for it in the hsitory.
Muhammad Peace is upon him established a state in Madina, where state owned the Land, and it's produces were sold including the price for bounties from Allah.Fadak is one example i can quote instantly.
Actually Arnold mol has quite rightly pointed out the mistake you are making, You talk about Allah and Earth but forget the link between Allah and Earth that is Humans, Allah doesnot act directly, he assigns powers to humans as his representatives, he gives them power of attorney to do whatever they want to within the larger frame work of Quran. They can buy and sell the bounties which is of their part.
They can make legisilations as deem fit according to the environment etc.1CELOSTNOWFOUND
Peace All
It seems to me that there is much comment on the models that Abdunur is presenting without reading the model. This is not acceptable from a Quranic perspective.
But to present a model that is not from Quran's prespective is acceptable, come on bravo bravo
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Salaam Raaajah,
you make statement without thought or investigation, the Allodial system underpins the whole land law system, as I explained within the essay, which you have not read because you have decided it is against your religion. Allodial ownership existed as the predominant model across the earth in the past, it has been well tried and tested, why do you attempt to mislead people?
Have you some strange aversion to Islam?
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Peace Raajah
But to present a model that is not from Quran's prespective is acceptable, come on bravo bravo
I urge you to study the models without pre-conceived ideas before labeling it as not being from Quranic perspective. Also, please read the story of Thamud in the Quran as it goes some way to backing the allodial model.
First part of the statement is according to Quran second part is lunatics dream.
This system is not practical if it would had been, there would have been at least one example for it in the hsitory.
Muhammad Peace is upon him established a state in Madina, where state owned the Land, and it's produces were sold including the price for bounties from Allah.Fadak is one example i can quote instantly.
What is your Quranic evidence for the statement that I have made bold?
As to its practicality and lunacy, the Quranic message was constantly challenged by such claims. In an environment of utter corruption, justice is often seen as lunacy. That is why messengers were always accused of being madmen. For this reason I don't believe that this kind of defense is productive without solid evidence of this apparent lunacy.
I have question for you.
Do you believe that God has promised to take care of the needs of all creatures?Imraan
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Imraan
What is your Quranic evidence for the statement that I have made bold?
This is an old tactic now, this appears when logic ends. The model you think will change the world, Abdun nur says about this
Allodial ownership existed as the predominant model across the earth in the past, it has been well tried and tested,
Where is the Quranic eveidence for the portion i made bold?
Imraan
As to its practicality and lunacy, the Quranic message was constantly challenged by such claims. In an environment of utter corruption, justice is often seen as lunacy. That is why messengers were always accused of being madmen. For this reason I don't believe that this kind of defense is productive without solid evidence of this apparent lunacy.
No body disagreed with the basic message of quran they knew it was true, Don't lie, don't back bite, Don't kill innocent, take care of Yaatama, respect your parents, love your youngestrs, these were messages of Quran, and people knew it was true, but for their own interests they were not accepting it. But in this case there is a basic flaw inthe Model, not acceptable from the beginning truly against the Model of Allah.
Imraan
I have question for you.
Do you believe that God has promised to take care of the needs of all creatures?This question doesnot make any sense to me. Hundreds of thousands have been dead because of Hunger in Ethoopia, Millions sleep without three times food. 9 million dollars worth car from Mersedez is purchased by prince of Dubai (goldplated).
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This question doesnot make any sense to me. Hundreds of thousands have been dead because of Hunger in Ethoopia, Millions sleep without three times food. 9 million dollars worth car from Mersedez is purchased by prince of Dubai (goldplated).
Peace Raajah
There is an abundance of everything on earth. There is not scarcity. God has provided human beings with everything they need and even more. And God sustains everything.
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David-K
Peace Raajah
There is an abundance of everything in earth. There is not scarcity. God has provided human beings with everything they need and even more. And God sustains everything.
Salaam to you too,
So where is the point? If Allah takes care of every needs of creatures, why people die of Hunger, why don't they have enough cloths? Why are few richer than others?
Allah has provided us with abundance of resorces but it is Human who have to Manage and Earn, because Allah has made us rulers of the earth and has given us Authority to use these resources up to a certain time, we are the owners of these resources and we will decide how to use them. If we mismange Ethopia is the Result, Pakistan is the Result, India is the result, If we Mange Europe is the Result, I don't know in what category these ARabs fall?
I think your theory fits them, Allah has decided to take care of all their needs. -
So where is the point? If Allah takes care of every needs of creatures, why people die of Hunger, why don't they have enough cloths? Why are few richer than others?
Raaajah,
Poverty, hunger, all these things are because things are shared unjustly. Imagine a room with 10 persons. These 10 persons get a huge cake. And if there are 10 persons, and 10 pieces of cake, there will be 1 piece of cake for each person. But what happens if one of the persons are greedy, and takes 5 pieces of cake for himself. Then some of the persons will not get a piece of cake. Because he has taken their share. And they will remain hungry. As you can see, the cake is enough for everyone in the room, but when it is shared unjustly, some persons will not get a piece of cake.
Facts about our world
Did you know that almost half the people in the world (over 3 billion people) live on less than 2.50 dollars a day.
Did you know that the wealth of the 7 richest people is more than the wealth of the 41 indepted poor countries (567 million people).
Did you know that nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or unable sign their names.
Did you know that 1 billion children (1 in 2 children in the world) live in poverty.
Did you know that 640 million children live without adequate shelter.
Did you know that 400 million children have no access to safe water.
Did you know that 270 million children have no access to health services.
Did you know that 10.6 million children (or if you will, roughly 29,000 children per day) died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5.
I think we should deeply reflect on the facts mentioned above. Because it is the truth about our world.
Allah has provided us with abundance of resorces but it is Human who have to Manage and Earn, because Allah has made us rulers of the earth and has given us Authority to use these resources up to a certain time, we are the owners of these resources and we will decide how to use them. If we mismange Ethopia is the Result, Pakistan is the Result, India is the result, If we Mange Europe is the Result, I don't know in what category these ARabs fall?
I think your theory fits them, Allah has decided to take care of all their needs.Good points. And I agree that Europe is more advanced and functions better than some middle eastern, arab and african countries. However, both the east and the west are following extreme systems. Neither the eastern countries nor the western countries are following the middlepath. Some western countries use the recources of our world too much, while some of the eastern countries use the recources of our world too little. The western countries are responsible for much pollution in the world. The eastern countries are responsible for much poverty in the world etc. The Quranic system has solutions for problems we see in both eastern and western countries. islam is not a religion, it is a complete system for mankind. And when/if this system is implemented one day, then the problems of our world would disappear. And we will have a true balance. A correct system based on truth and reality.
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David-K
And when/if this system is implemented one day, then the problems of our world would disappear. And we will have a true balance. A correct system based on truth and reality.
You are a nice person.
But brother sorry to say if the system You and Our Mullahs are trying to implement from last 5000 years or so is not intact and passed the test of time, then sorry to say it never could. It could be a dream and wishful thinking but not reality. We need practical people and not dreamers.
The Mongols were at the doors of Baghdad and Muslims were debating for how to implement Quranic system in the other parts of world.
They are conquering the skies and we are discussing how to implement some Pathetic Model system that has no roots even from Quran.
Disgusting.Regarding your facts about the poverty I can present more than that but this will distract us from the actual topic.
One thing I would like to say when you say " Allah takes care of all the needs of creatures" then why he allows that ONE person to eat the cake of other ni9ne?
Do you want to blame Allah for this? If YES than your logic is correct, but if NO than just think about what I said for a minute.Thanks.
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Salaam Raaajah,
when have Mullahs, Imams, mufti or any other religious fanatic ever established anything but restrictive and anti-Islamic systems, they are not Muslims, as Islam is not a religion of any sort, it is a Deen, a way to live in this world, free of Mullahs, Imams and muftis, etc.
You think religion will help you, all religion without exception enslaves and confuses, only the Deen of Islam understood as systems to live within, will free humanity, as Allah intended, if you wish to remain within a usury model as a slave you are free to do so,within Islam there is no compulsion, the true crime is, if you through your actions enslave those around you; the subjugated always subjugate those around them, as they can not perceive they are indeed a slave.
The reason a few people eat 9 pieces of the cake and leave all the multitude of others with the one slice is because they establish the system we are subjugated to exist within, and the people sharing the single slice support and embrace the model of society created by the usurers, as you do yourself, as I say this is your free choice.
As for your professor of economics, the entire profession of economics is a fraud from the bottom up, they are employed to confuse themselves into thinking a bad idea for an investor is a good idea to invest in, they simply manufacture excuses to justify a usurious contract. How could a person who excels in the field of confusion create anything but more confusion.
People think they can reform the existing system, an absolutely impossible task, how can you make an incredibly bad idea, into a good idea?
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Abdun Nur
People think they can reform the existing system, an absolutely impossible task, how can you make an incredibly bad idea, into a good idea?
brother Muhammad Peace is upon him Did that! He turned incredibly bad society into Incredibly good society, he reforemd the existing system, as the system existed but was corrupted.
when have Mullahs, Imams, mufti or any other religious fanatic ever established anything but restrictive and anti-Islamic systems, they are not Muslims, as Islam is not a religion of any sort, it is a Deen, a way to live in this world, free of Mullahs, Imams and muftis, etc.
Imam Muhammad presented the best system in shape of Madina Estate.
How easy it is for you to call Non Muslims to those who donot fit your agenda? Indeed you have a Mullah hidden within you,the entire profession of economics is a fraud from the bottom up
Oh! I sympathize with you brother.
What are your golden comments about scientists and Doctors? I will love to hear them.
Thanks.
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Salaam Raaajah,
you seem very bitter about the systems of Islam, Islam is not a religion, therefore Muhammad was not a religious man, he was a practical man, he must have established the systems, but as I have said previously within this or the other thread, people corrupt quickly, especially if they can not understand simple models of freedom, like yourself.
As for state education, it is within the title, state education.
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Peace Raaajah,
brother Muhammad Peace is upon him Did that! He turned incredibly bad society into Incredibly good society, he reform the existing system, as the system existed but was corrupted.
I agree with Abdun Nur. Reflect upon the following metaphor. When a tree is old and rotten, and does not benefit you, you have to pull it out of the ground and plant a new tree. No matter how much you try to fix it, it won't benefit you. You have to completely remove the tree and plant a new tree. Reform is good, but Revolution is better. We can learn a lot from the story of Abraham. He abandoned falsehood and what his society was believing. We should not differentiate between the prophets. And we can learn things from the stories of the different prophets. However, we are adviced to follow the creed of Abraham (See 2130, 2135, 395, 4125, 6161, 2278, 16123).
Imam Muhammad presented the best system in shape of Madina Estate.
How easy it is for you to call Non Muslims to those who donot fit your agenda? Indeed you have a Mullah hidden within you,
Oh! I sympathize with you brother.Mocking is wrong and uncompatible with islam no matter who does it.
What are your golden comments about scientists and Doctors? I will love to hear them.
Many scientists and doctors are often wrong, accept falsehood, and are imperfect like everyone else. And when it comes to economy, Abdun Nur is right, the system is a fraud and is based on falsehood and lies. It is not a natural system. Watch money masters or zeitgeist addendum to learn more about the negative things of our economical system. And since the system is a fraud, by using Logic we will understand that the profession is also a fraud. And the mission of the profession is to support the existing falsehoods, not change anything. However, keep in mind that I am not saying that you can not use the economic profession for anything good. Just like other subjects in university and college, knowledge about economy can be useful and beneficial. For example you can become self-employed and start your own business. And contribute to people.
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The Third Model.
Human Energy economic system.
?people know the prices of everything and the value of nothing.?(Oscar Wild 1891)
So you might be thinking, the only model of finance I know is that of usury, so how does the Islamic financial model, entirely free of usury work?
As far as I can see there are three avenues open, the first is to re-establish the basic monetary system that existed for thousands of years before the Jesuit and Jewish money lenders perverted and corrupted it, based on physical coins, containing an established purity of valuable metals. This being a store of labour.
Secondly, a money free system, based on the foundation of wealth, which is labour, without a representative paper currency, organised through a register. This is a register of labour.
Finally the best option, you could combine the two to form a extremely strong foundation, and so a more stable financial system.
?The opposite of consumption isn't thrift. It's generosity.?
The reason the world is fuelled through ever escalating consumption, is the need of the usury banking system to double the amount of debt injected into the world every decade, through a need to repay interest on the loans issued in the past, as a result of the 100% debt currency model.
War is the best method the banking system has of transforming society and enslaving the population to debt, and ever descending restrictions. If you support the usury banking system you are an advocate of war, poverty, exploitation, famine, ignorance and confusion, as these are the fruits of banking.
To aid consumption, the corporate monopolies created through the engineered boom and bust cycles of the bankers, manufacture products that are engineered to have short life use, retard technologies, build in high product maintenance and so fuel the consumption, and so the burden upon the individual.
The old coinage system.
Any individual can mint coins, under the prerequisites, universally agreed, of a set thickness, shape and purity, in silver, gold, platinum, whatever metal they like, being established as of value, the reason this conformity is required is to allow everyone a simple way to test the purity of coins, as only a pure metal will weigh an exact amount if made of an exact size, contamination will change the weight, so a simple set of accurate scales and a holder to test the size, are all that is required; other than that they could be of any design. No monopolies of money production by individuals or organisations can be tolerated; the universality of all things is freedom, while monopolies are a road to slavery once more.
There are electronic devices that can check metal purities also, that are not that expensive, based on the resistance of metals.
Based upon the polycentric community model, the hub central repository of each cell group, or community can lend future labour, at absolutely no interest, to people the repository find to have the intention to repay the loan, when supported by their surety group, or others within the community, (the ability to administrate certificates is only sanctioned for the central repository of each cell, no individual or separate organisation can do this, however any individual or organisation could lend coins at absolutely no interest if they so wished). Only a living human being can borrow future labour, no abstract business entity can be created to borrow, it is only through combined efforts large loans can be achieved, when many people join together to form a strong purpose, such as the twelve members of a surety group combining their resources and labour to establish a business resource.
The communities repository administrator creates the required number of certificates to cover the loan, the individual that has borrowed the money spends his certificate, representing silver coins, and at any point people in possession of certificates can collect the silver coins that these certificates represent, from the central repository.
The individual that has taken out the loan, over time repays the loan with coins, or certificates that he acquires, returning either the certificates or the coins that have been loaned by the repository, back to the central repository, in so doing, no inflation, no interest, no shortage of funds will exist, as the balance will be restored. Historically it is demonstrated that on average only 5% of physical reserves are in circulation, so this system would function without a great danger of difficulty.
The money will simply circulate through the community, no hardship or usury.
This system is based on 100% intrinsic value, therefore if an individual refuses, is unable or dies and the loan is unpaid, it must still be honoured, no loan can be written off by the repository without exoneration, as it must balance the books. This would fall to the surety group who supported the issue of the loan, to dispose of assets belonging to the defaulter, or funding the loss.
The surety group or community members who sanctioned the loan that defaulted must stand the cost of the loss, three methods are open to acquire a loan, it must be backed by personal assets, it must be guaranteed by an individual (a guarantor) with sufficient assets to cover the loan, the surety group of the borrower, or community members at large must personally sanction the loan, and therefore carry the burden of the risk, accept the risk, by signing on the loan, if they wish to allow its sanction.
If the paper certificates are stolen they will be registered as void and new certificated issued to the individual that was robbed, a system of certificate number verification would be practised and be readily available to all, to eliminate fraud, a simple digital system could easily be constructed.
If the community at large wished to borrow money, for public works for example, they would perform the same service for themselves, under close scrutiny, and with the consent of sanctioning community members.
The community would cancel out these certificates as they paid for central council services, or when they gave the council monetary gifts to fund social or community projects.
The true gift within an Islamic community would be the labour of the individuals within it, to build and enrich the environment all develop within.
As ultimately these certificates would return to be destroyed, this mandatory destruction is the key to the system; this would place no burden upon the community, no inflation, no interest, no taxation.
If individual cells wished to dispute the validity of another hubs repository certificates, being other than the one they themselves used, they would be returned and exchanged to the hub repository that issued them, for either a certificate from the hub as a certificate exchange, or for coins.
Another alternative would be universal agreement of certificate structure and value, as to make them interchangeable throughout the system, invariably and ultimately being returned specifically to the place of issue to be destroyed, of course this could be done remotely by other repositories through serial numbers and exchange of certificates having one cancelling out another.
Of course if an abundance of coins existed within the hub repository, they would be used first, having no need of certificates, as long as a minimum store was retained for daily demands.
Internationally a 100% silver/gold coinage model would have absolutely no problem trading with societies based in other models, as metals always retain a strong value, even under the manipulations of the bankers, there value is still recognised. And fiat currencies would be converted into metal before exchange.
The Islamic system cannot exist in tandem with a usury system, they are mutually exclusive, if a community establishes this Islamic system they must refuse to participate in the outside usury system within the community, but unfortunately people will through greed and self interest corrupt the Islamic system quickly, contaminating it with usury if they are unchecked, the establishing and witnessed signing of the social contract is a prerequisite of the Islamic community.
Under the most stringent and exacting oversight, a system of debit, built within a repository system, based on an intrinsic positive balance, without exception, always under comprehensively enforced regulation; then a digitised system could be established, although I advise strongly against this concept without deeply established and enforced parameters, as it is too open to widespread abuse, and could easily but the root of deception and fraud.
A money free system.
Within a community that has no physical metal wealth, a coin free system can be established, evolving into a coinage/labour register system, as wealth is generated through the industry and efforts of the community, not through the printing of paper notes.
All money is fundamentally a physical representation for labour, the bankers trick the population into thinking labour is worthless and paper money is wealth, so they print money (steal our labour) for the cost of printing.
Human labour is wealth, you can not be destitute if your labour is wealth, you can not starving when your labour is wealth, only through the trick of the bankers are you fooled into valuing there money and not valuing labour.
So the concept of a coinage system could be devolved; instead of using gold or silver we could simply accumulate labour accomplished within a written register, the register would function more universally if labour was gauged through a physical silver coinage system. Not all labour is equal, one man's labour is not always the same as another, a bus driver is not equal to a medical doctor for example.
It would in some respects work the opposite to money, it represents physical value in pure product, you cannot tax this system without dominating its administration and this is a system that would continue absolutely independent of any outside financial model, having no need of any physical money, either paper or metals. It would work directly opposite to all other monetary systems in respect to hoarding wealth, with paper or metal it restricts the circulation of wealth, with this system it benefit?s the community, as it?s the accumulation of physical labour within the community itself, the more you hoard the more you accomplish.
The purchase of goods would function simply within a representative register, allowing community members to purchase goods through register debits, and none members to use silver coins, through this structure wealth would expand and prosperity be common place.
Wages of a slave or full portion of labour.
The concept of paying wages has a limited value, it has a master slave structure, it now serves as the predominant structure within the modern usury model. The structure is a fractal of a corporation, the workers feeding the owners.
Shared risk, shared rewards.
A portion of the profits within a group endeavour would function within the Islamic concepts, this share would reflect the value of the input of the individual.
If an individual wished to join an existing business endeavour, and there was an opening of another individual who wished to exit the endeavour, then they could buy themselves into the business, at a price they and the individual leaving, considered its worth. As with every business assets accrue, through the labours of the individuals who invest their labour within the business, this has a value of labour, this labour could be accounted for through a new member of the group replacing another.
Expansion If an individual wished to join an established business and the members within it wished them to be part of it, they would mutually establish the parameters of the collaboration, based on mutual agreement, they need no legislation, as exploitation is not an element of the model. An individual adds their own labour, and so earns there own rewards, it has little impact on the other members, however as a business expands, it would require more individuals to invest their time labouring within it to fulfil obligations.
As within common law no corporation can exist, the predominant corporate structure is directly against common law.
Islamic Insurance.
Insurance is a valuable protection from unforeseen hardships, the present system based on chance is not an acceptable model, it functions on obscene profits for taking little chance.
I will give you an example of the Islamic model
If I demanded 10% of your crop in exchange for insuring it against loss, so I gambled you would have a good harvest, when the odds maybe only 1% of the time a crop is lost. This is a form of usury.
The Islamic model, protecting yourself from the hardship of a crop failure is simple. A group of farmers would join together, each committing (only theoretically, as only upon demand of the share would it be supplied) a share of their crop into the collective pot, proportionate to the size of their holdings, only if a farm failed would any burden be extracted from the collective, otherwise the insurance would cost nothing. This loss burden sharing insurance could be linked across large group collectives of farmers, so reducing the burden through scale of any potential losses.
Another example
Car insurance should be organised within the same structure, a group of car owners join together, investing an amount proportionate to the value of their car, at the end of the year, after all the claims have been paid, the remainder would be redistributed according to the proportion originally invested. Or the car owner could simple make up the short fall to continue their insurance for another year.
Usury Markets.
Stock market, pensions, futures market, derivative market, commodities market, currency market, everyone of them are absolutely usurious, and against the Islamic model.
Many pervert the simple concept of Usury or Riba, to justify to themselves they are still a Muslim, and what they do is fine. They confuse others and will be loud and vocal in their defence of these corrupt and worthless markets.
To understand usury lets examine an example
If I lent you a watermelon, and expect you to repay me two watermelons in return, I have laboured in the creation of the one watermelon, but I expect a second watermelon in return for no labour, I have extorted the fruits of your labour from you, because to create the second watermelon I must labour twice as much as you laboured in the creation of just one watermelon, and surrender that labour to you in reward for no effort on your part, this is usury.
To sell a crop of watermelons at a discounted price before you have planted the seeds, and harvested, jumping straight to market, as is now commonly practised through the futures market, is selling something you do not have, and may never have, you may only sell what you posses, to sell a potential is a form of usury, you are selling nothing now for the fruits of someone?s labour, for a price that if you deliver in the future would be for less than you have earned.
You shall give full measure when you trade, and weigh equitably. This is better and more righteous. (Surah 1735)
You shall give full measure when you trade; do not cheat. (Surah 26181)
You shall weigh with an equitable scale. (Surah 26182)
These principles can be applied to any area of commerce, for example if you sign a contract to pay a set fee for a service, irrelevant to whether that service is used or not, say a gym membership contract, but never go, yet you can not escape the contract period, this is a futures contract and a form of usury, any contract based on potential future use of service, as opposed to actual use is again not full measure for the fruits of your labour, so usury.
Copyright.
Is copyright theft?
It is a wonderful tool to control and monopolise supply of goods, maintain inflated prices, hold technology back, hold competition back, reduce diversity and get paid again and again for the same work.
Doesn't sound very Islamic.
Firstly they say it is theft to break a rule they have established in the purchase of the copyrighted product, but what have you stolen?
They say you have stolen their sale of that product, or you have made money from an aspect of their copyrighted product, without giving them a share.
Theft To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief. See {Larceny}, and the Note under {Robbery}.
But as you can see under the concept of theft nothing has been stolen when you copy an original, so they redefine it as piracy.
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The act or crime of a pirate.
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(Common Law) Robbery on the high seas; the taking of
property from others on the open sea by open violence;
without lawful authority, and with intent to steal; -- a
crime answering to robbery on land.
So they redefine theft and piracy, as nothing has been stolen but the thought that they have not received payment for the copy of the original.
They make obscene profits, but restrict and control the products they generate to make certain they maintain the obscene profits. They use clever marketing to convince people that they need obscene profits to function, but copyright is a legal construct in opposition to common law.
So they redefine theft to mean controlling what others do with their own property, on the premise that it deprives the "originator" of future income.
Intellectual property is the next line of defence, the logical conclusion of "intellectual property" is that it dictates what someone can and cannot do with their own real property; in other words these two types of "properties" are mutually inconsistent. Moreover, why not take "IP" to its logical conclusions the man (and his descendants) who first decided to build his home out of wood should be receiving royalty payments from everyone else. Of course, "IP" advocates will never agree to this, since in order to keep their state granted criminal monopoly privileges they must "draw the line" at some arbitrary point. Finally, the reality of "IP" is definitely usurious, since it is equivalent to selling your shares in a company, but demanding to be paid the dividend, or selling your property but still demanding to receive rents from it. Selling anything is transferring ownership, once the buyer believes he owns the product in question, he is paying for a future stream of income (in the case of assets) or utility in general. The alternative is known as renting, and "IP" advocates purposely confuse these two ideas in order to reap the gains of selling their products, while demanding to have final say over its use. Well you cannot have it both ways, if you want to rent out the use of your products then do so, and you will receive a lower price for it. Don't hide behind implied legalisms and small print. (Quote Wootah on Freeminds)
Labour is wealth.
You could donate your time as Zakath to the communal charity, you could donate your time to charity outside of the communal effort, a direct interaction, unlike paper money, which is donated without connection, so in isolation and detachment.
If you ran this system in unison with the silver and gold coin system it would then remain up to the people to decide how they wanted to be paid, but a labour based system would value labour not the certificates of debt, and so free the community from the existing monopoly which generates immense misery and is nothing more than a restrictive and expensive money exploitation.
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