about polygamy
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salam leyna,
looks like the British Govt. agrees with u
they've banned him from entering the country..Britain bans Islamic preacher Zakir Naik
PTI, Jun 18, 2010, 06.12pm ISTLONDON Britain has banned controversial Indian Islamic televangelist Zakir Naik, who once claimed that "every Muslim should be a terrorist," from entering the country, citing his "unacceptable behaviour".
Home Secretary Theresa May said 44-year-old Naik would not be allowed to enter the country under laws that can exclude anyone who writes or publishes material that can "foment, justify or glorify terrorist violence".
Indian television preacher Naik was due to give a series of lectures at arenas in Wembley and Sheffield.
May said the doctor was being excluded because repeated comments attributed to him was evidence of his "unacceptable behaviour".
She said "Coming to the UK is a privilege not a right, and I am not willing to allow those who might not be conducive to the public good to enter the UK."Website footage had shown the preacher making the claim that every Muslim should embrace terrorism.
Naik said Muslims should beware of people saying Osama bin Laden was right or wrong, adding "If you ask my view, if given the truth, if he is fighting the enemies of Islam, I am for him.
If he is terrorising the terrorists, if he is terrorising America the terrorist, the biggest terrorist, every Muslim should be a terrorist."
He is also reported as saying that western women make themselves "more susceptible to rape" by wearing revealing clothing.
Mumbai-born Naik is a medical doctor by profession, having attained a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery (MBBS) from the University of Mumbai, India.
Naik is the founder and president of the Islamic Research Foundation (IRF) which is a non-profit organisation. It also owns and broadcasts the free-to-air global Peace TV channel.
reference
http//timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Britain-bans-Islamic-preacher-Zakir-Naik/articleshow/6064154.cms -
Hi harris,
there's already a thread about this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600960.0
I completely disagree with the nonsense he is spreading, and I think some of his views on women and rape, for example, are offensive, ignorant, and misleading. His statements about terrorism are debatable, but I don't necessarily think he should be banned for that.
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oops-a-daisy! didn c tat thread..
well banning him or any other alien for tat matter is the right thing to do if a government has conclusive proof tat he incites negativity into the minds of its people enough to cause more harm than good... brickwall
ofcourse there is freedom of speech, bt then tats for citizens.. -
oops-a-daisy! didn c tat thread..
well banning him or any other alien for tat matter is the right thing to do if a government has conclusive proof tat he incites negativity into the minds of its people enough to cause more harm than good... brickwall
ofcourse there is freedom of speech, bt then tats for citizens..Freedom of speech is only for non Muslims. tempt
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To protect orphans, as instructed by the Qur'an.
But also to have more children. This is common in tribal societies where the more people the stronger the tribe and family. There is nothing wrong with polygamy if the culture supports that. Marriage means different things to different societies and cultural norms. The Koran did not come to change society. Thats Sunni talk. It came to change people's religion and ethics hence the emphasis on treatment on the Koran regarding wives.
We know many prophets, including Muhammad had more than one wife. But the question here is equal treatment at least to the best of one's ability. If some societies do not approve of that then they don't have to allow it. There is nothing called you can not marry more than four wives. Thats Sunni talk. The verse never said that. Tow, three and four is just an expression of polygamy but not a limitation. The Koran uses such expression.
980-84 Ask forgiveness for them or ask not forgiveness for them; though thou ask forgiveness for them seventy times Allah will not forgive them. ??. And never (O Muhammad) pray for one of them who dieth, nor stand by his grave
Numbers may not mean much but an expression of many or more than one. Sunni tried to counter this argument by coming up with a hadith that said upon this verse Muhammad then proceeded to pray more than 70 times to ask for their forgiveness. Funny that this was one of the hadiths that many early Sunnis refused to accept even if it was Bukhari's hadith. They claimed it encouraged complacency for hypocrisy. But I doubt that. The idea here is to turn that expression into actual meaningful numbers. This was done in my mind the counter the two, three, four argument that some Koranist in the past laid out. If the Koran said do not marry more than four then we can say there are limits. There are no limits and thus the Koran never came t change these practices as they are part of the human cultural evolution and historic experience. This argument is made by Sunnis to justify the theocracy argument and to make it appear the Koran came down to establish a new legal system that was unique. The reality is these practices were always there and were there in many societies in Africa, Middle East or even Asia. The Koran came to change people's religion and not culture or practice unless its oppressive such as burying alive of daughters etc. If societies have problems with polygamy there is no reason why they can't abolish it if they chose or they can allow it if they chose. Can women marry more than one husband? have not seen any reason form the Koran why this can't be allowed also. If this is the cultural norm so be it.
In haj we know that many of these rituals were practiced by pagans and many other societies have religious rituals and rites. The Koran never came to change that but change to whom we should worship and not how. Thatw why Sunni always ask how do we do this and how then do we do that. These things probably existed before Koran and the Koran wen't along with it. The same case with food restriction for the Israelites. The Koran said that these restrictions were there before Moses was even before so God might have wen't along with that. In other times it can be a trial as the case with the Sabbath. The Koran says the Sabbath was introduced as a trial for the Israelites as the case of the direction of Qibla was a trial. It then made it clear that it was there for a specific purpose and it does not reflect a religious tradition as verse 2177 tells us.
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Saying "treating each wife equally" is stupid because it can mean equally badly. Polygamy is stupid. A man only has one penis so of course if he's f**king a different woman he isn't being a husband to his first wife.
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Saying "treating each wife equally" is stupid because it can mean equally badly. Polygamy is stupid. A man only has one penis so of course if he's f**king a different woman he isn't being a husband to his first wife.
interesting logic!
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Saying "treating each wife equally" is stupid because it can mean equally badly. Polygamy is stupid. A man only has one penis so of course if he's f**king a different woman he isn't being a husband to his first wife.
In 'Behind the Veil Male-Female Dynamics in Modern Muslim Society', Fatima Mernissi goes into how polygamy, men's ease at divorce (and the extreme importance of a man's mother, over his wife) contribute to marriages not being secure for the woman. For how can they be? There is no merging of 2 people into a close-knit relationship if that's the case.
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In 'Behind the Veil Male-Female Dynamics in Modern Muslim Society', Fatima Mernissi goes into how polygamy, men's ease at divorce (and the extreme importance of a man's mother, over his wife) contribute to marriages not being secure for the woman. For how can they be? There is no merging of 2 people into a close-knit relationship if that's the case.
But many monogamous marriages today are also failing. Many polygamous marriages work fine and many monogamous marriages don't. I know polygamous marriages that worked and some that did not usually because the man allowed one woman to dominate and isolate the other wife or wives.
Most people here are looking at it from a cultural prespectives where they see the relationship as sexual. Marriage decision for many traditional societies are not based on sexual desire or even romantic affair.
If you look at many of the ruling families in the Gulf today like Qatar, Kuwait and Saudi etc many have more than one wife. Even Prince Haya, the daughter of King Hussein of Joradan, married the ruler of Dunai. She is his third wife. Its only when neglect comes along as the case with Anwar Sadat and his first wife that trouble happens. Women in traditional societies see marriages perhaps different than today's woman do. But we must never assume this means their marriages will be more successful. Plus people can say polygamy protects against adultery. Maybe and maybe not. But I do not see monogamy as having any bearing to a marriage's successes.
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Many polygamous marriages work fine and many monogamous marriages don't.
A large-scale study currently underway across Malaysia uncovers proof that polygamy harms everyone involved from emotionally scarred children, to wives who think they?d be better off as single-parent households, and even husbands who admit ?I wouldn?t recommend it for my son; it?s quite stressful.?
When Malaysian women?s rights organisation Sisters in Islam (SIS) argued that polygamy causes social problems and has a negative emotional impact, leading figures of the Islamic establishment in Malaysia would ask, ?What proof do you have??. When SIS cited cases of women who had approached the organisation for legal services or support, the rejoinder was ?That?s only isolated cases? or ?When it?s properly practiced, polygamy can create harmonious family life.?
...http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16221.15
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A large-scale study currently underway across Malaysia uncovers proof that polygamy harms everyone involved from emotionally scarred children, to wives who think they?d be better off as single-parent households, and even husbands who admit ?I wouldn?t recommend it for my son; it?s quite stressful.?
When Malaysian women?s rights organisation Sisters in Islam (SIS) argued that polygamy causes social problems and has a negative emotional impact, leading figures of the Islamic establishment in Malaysia would ask, ?What proof do you have??. When SIS cited cases of women who had approached the organisation for legal services or support, the rejoinder was ?That?s only isolated cases? or ?When it?s properly practiced, polygamy can create harmonious family life.?
...http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16221.15
I think the Islamic figures you are talking about are defending based on ideology. But I also believe the opponents of polygamy are also attacking it based on ideology.
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I think the Islamic figures you are talking about are defending based on ideology. But I also believe the opponents of polygamy are also attacking it based on ideology.
That's the difference between bad ideology and good ideology. Good ideology is based on natural reason, which reason in harmony with humane nature. Bad ideology is arbitrary or based on imitation.
Polygamy is inherently about inequality, economic injustice, manipulation and jealousy. It is at root unreasonable. It is not marriage.
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But also to have more children. This is common in tribal societies where the more people the stronger the tribe and family. There is nothing wrong with polygamy if the culture supports that. Marriage means different things to different societies and cultural norms. The Koran did not come to change society. Thats Sunni talk. It came to change people's religion and ethics hence the emphasis on treatment on the Koran regarding wives.
Polygamy actually benefits the wealthy who can easily support more than one wife. In fact a caliph or king can support 100s of wives and when there is no even wealth distribution becoming part of a harem is almost the only choice for a woman. Polygamy does not benefit poor honest hard working men, let alone does it reflect the purpose of marriage from God nor does it reflect in any measure the notion of love.
We know many prophets, including Muhammad had more than one wife. But the question here is equal treatment at least to the best of one's ability. If some societies do not approve of that then they don't have to allow it. There is nothing called you can not marry more than four wives. Thats Sunni talk. The verse never said that. Tow, three and four is just an expression of polygamy but not a limitation. The Koran uses such expression.
One thing I don't think Muslims understand is that those prophets while favored by God did do many bad things that God was displeased with. The relationship between God and the OT biblical figures is more complex than Muslims are led to believe. It is not a simple matter of 'oh he is a prophet therefore he is sinless'. Many of those prophets did many evil things.The reality is these practices were always there and were there in many societies in Africa, Middle East or even Asia. The Koran came to change people's religion and not culture or practice unless its oppressive such as burying alive of daughters etc. If societies have problems with polygamy there is no reason why they can't abolish it if they chose or they can allow it if they chose. Can women marry more than one husband? have not seen any reason form the Koran why this can't be allowed also. If this is the cultural norm so be it.
I think it is a socially destructive practice that only has merit in extreme circumstances. Yes there may be times and places where populations are imbalanced. Overall it is sexist, breeds jealousy both from outside and within and never fosters love and certain is not what God intended for marriage.In haj we know that many of these rituals were practiced by pagans and many other societies have religious rituals and rites. The Koran never came to change that but change to whom we should worship and not how. Thatw why Sunni always ask how do we do this and how then do we do that. These things probably existed before Koran and the Koran wen't along with it. The same case with food restriction for the Israelites. The Koran said that these restrictions were there before Moses was even before so God might have wen't along with that. In other times it can be a trial as the case with the Sabbath. The Koran says the Sabbath was introduced as a trial for the Israelites as the case of the direction of Qibla was a trial. It then made it clear that it was there for a specific purpose and it does not reflect a religious tradition as verse 2177 tells us.
You pretty much have to ignore the New Testament and Jesus teachings on rituals and food. Even if you stop short of saying Jesus is God, there is so much that Jesus taught that Mohammad simply overrides again. Considering you disagree with the Sunni then I have to question on what basis because you are also arguing that Mohammad was right and Jesus was wrong. Either ritual is important or it is not.Sure believe in God and one God and sure question the hadith but don't impose polygamy on the world again. Let's learn about love and one way to learn about love given to us by God is marriage and his intention, which is commitment to one person.
I concede there can be practical reasons for polygamy however these are extreme situations that do not apply to our lives today and rarely if ever applied in history.
It's simple to disprove polygamy - would you want your partner to be cheating on you?
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Polygamy actually benefits the wealthy who can easily support more than one wife. In fact a caliph or king can support 100s of wives and when there is no even wealth distribution becoming part of a harem is almost the only choice for a woman. Polygamy does not benefit poor honest hard working men, let alone does it reflect the purpose of marriage from God nor does it reflect in any measure the notion of love.
One thing I don't think Muslims understand is that those prophets while favored by God did do many bad things that God was displeased with. The relationship between God and the OT biblical figures is more complex than Muslims are led to believe. It is not a simple matter of 'oh he is a prophet therefore he is sinless'. Many of those prophets did many evil things.
I think it is a socially destructive practice that only has merit in extreme circumstances. Yes there may be times and places where populations are imbalanced. Overall it is sexist, breeds jealousy both from outside and within and never fosters love and certain is not what God intended for marriage.
You pretty much have to ignore the New Testament and Jesus teachings on rituals and food. Even if you stop short of saying Jesus is God, there is so much that Jesus taught that Mohammad simply overrides again. Considering you disagree with the Sunni then I have to question on what basis because you are also arguing that Mohammad was right and Jesus was wrong. Either ritual is important or it is not.Sure believe in God and one God and sure question the hadith but don't impose polygamy on the world again. Let's learn about love and one way to learn about love given to us by God is marriage and his intention, which is commitment to one person.
I concede there can be practical reasons for polygamy however these are extreme situations that do not apply to our lives today and rarely if ever applied in history.
It's simple to disprove polygamy - would you want your partner to be cheating on you?
If prophets did evil things than why does God praise them in Koran? Plus being sinless is Sunni doctrine not Koranic doctrine. The Koran tells us about this. But to say they are evil than they owuld not have been praised. The Koran spends a lot of ink praising the prophets.
Plus polygamy is not cheating. My mother came from a polygamous marriage and it did not work well. Her father had two wives. And her uncles also had polygamous marriages. It worked out well for them. But I do not detect any propblems in my mother's life or her brothers and siters as some here claim. the reality is polygamy is all about what kind of husband you are dealing with. Many monogamous marriages as I said fail and many are involved with domestic violence. Should we the condemn monogamous marriages?
Also people here keep looking at it from a sexual angle. This shows that many here have no real experience with polygamous marriages. Many of my mother's family came from polygamous parents yet they each have their own personality and not one of them had problems psychologically although there were problems nearly always because of some sort of favoratism by the husband. So I can relate with the verses of the Koran.
I still think many are confusing marraige with sex and confusing polygamy with multiple sex partners. Thats a very narrow way of looking at marriages. There is more to marriage than sex.
Plus who said about imposing polygamy? In fact my argument is polygamy or monogamy is not the Koran's intent. Its clear the Koran favors monogamy since it makes it easier to manage but not always. Today the divorce rate in many Sunni nations like UAE and Saudi Arabia is reaching 50%. Many women believe marriage is outdated and some have become lesbians. I think it all depends on character.
There is still some Sunni mindset. If I don't agree with something than it must be bad. Or maybe they have a different experience about this subject than I do.
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One thing I don't think Muslims understand is that those prophets while favored by God did do many bad things that God was displeased with. The relationship between God and the OT biblical figures is more complex than Muslims are led to believe. It is not a simple matter of 'oh he is a prophet therefore he is sinless'. Many of those prophets did many evil things.
I'm totally with you, there's no logic to thinking person in the scriptures must be perfect and without sin. But then, Christianity is even worse than Islam when it comes to this, right? There are lots bits of the NT where Jesus comes across as breaking a commandment or two. Wouldn't it be better if both Christianity and Islam accepted that just because a servant of God receives God's grace, it doesn't mean they don't make any mistakes?
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If prophets did evil things than why does God praise them in Koran? Plus being sinless is Sunni doctrine not Koranic doctrine. The Koran tells us about this. But to say they are evil than they owuld not have been praised. The Koran spends a lot of ink praising the prophets.
Each person has to come to their own conclusions there. My view is that the world was a much more violent and sinful place and the violence in the Old Testament is more about the survival of God's people and ultimately our survival. The polygamy of prophets in the OT and other sins are often frowned upon by God and punishment for sins done by prophets occurs. Ultimately God's plan of redemption was more important and God worked with wayward people that had hearts that were still open. But I wholly think it is detrimental to society today if we view our the past and past historical figures uncritically - something that just occurs with Mohammad to often.
Plus polygamy is not cheating. My mother came from a polygamous marriage and it did not work well. Her father had two wives. And her uncles also had polygamous marriages. It worked out well for them. But I do not detect any propblems in my mother's life or her brothers and siters as some here claim. the reality is polygamy is all about what kind of husband you are dealing with. Many monogamous marriages as I said fail and many are involved with domestic violence. Should we the condemn monogamous marriages?
There are numerous ways to live our lives and raise our children. Two loving homosexuals can do it, so why be surprised if a polygamous family raises normal children. It's just a shame that one man did not commit to one woman and vice versa and teach those values.Also people here keep looking at it from a sexual angle. This shows that many here have no real experience with polygamous marriages. Many of my mother's family came from polygamous parents yet they each have their own personality and not one of them had problems psychologically although there were problems nearly always because of some sort of favoratism by the husband. So I can relate with the verses of the Koran.
I'm more interested in the lack of love for other. One person with multiple partners clearly is not committed and learning about love.I still think many are confusing marraige with sex and confusing polygamy with multiple sex partners. Thats a very narrow way of looking at marriages. There is more to marriage than sex.
Obviously.Plus who said about imposing polygamy? In fact my argument is polygamy or monogamy is not the Koran's intent. Its clear the Koran favors monogamy since it makes it easier to manage but not always. Today the divorce rate in many Sunni nations like UAE and Saudi Arabia is reaching 50%. Many women believe marriage is outdated and some have become lesbians. I think it all depends on character.
I don't understand your point here. A high divorce rate more likely indicates lack of love and commitment to the marriage by one or both parties. Personally marriage should stop being a cultural institution and just become a religious institution again and let people freely choose again.