Finding the start of the period of abstinence of -shahr ramadan- 2010
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first of all let us agree on what a shaher is ,
yes every one tell you it is a month ,well it is not .
all we know is that a shaher is present twelve times in a year.
and it is both lunar and solar.very well.
ok the prophet was told to tell us in the quran about the ahillat ,we need to use them so we know time of haj.good
so what is a shaher. it is the ahillat,but hey wait a minute am i saying that a month is from one ahillah to another.like maybe 26 days no not at all.
a ahillat is the combination of the hillals that is between or around five days. when the moon dies and there are those nights with out the moon then the moon is born again.those nights are what we call a shaher.yes those nights with out a moon.
yes that is a shaher and i will show you why. is is like only about five days.
and we have twelve of them in one year.so that we know the years.
good so it starts with the deiing of the moon to the birth of a new one,now why did allah tell us in the verse in the quran that we should come the homes from the door and not from the back,for if we count the ahiilat from the birth of a new moon then one shaher would be like 26 days but if come from the door of the shaher it will be like only five days.
strange what makes me say that,ok give one more minute.see about ashhur el haram,what could there be that we know them.
bare with me ,so now we know that a shaher is not the moon cycle,but the cycle of the ahillat.great,so how do we know ashhur al haram,we know from quran they are four.in one year four of those shahers have less nights then the ussuall ashhur.yes it is strange they are the shahers that come after the shaher of ramadan.and i will tell you how we know it is ramadan ,give me another minute.
onlythose ashhur all haram are seperate from eachother they like have two ashhur between them that are regular ashhur.in ahshur all haram their nights are only four and the rest of the ashhur have five nights.
so ashhur all haram are about four days long each and they are four.they come in pairs,this is what the test shows and often they are devided by a pair of regular shahers not months dont make the mistake of thinking a shaher is month.
it is a shaher ,the days and nights where one cannot see the mooon between the ahillat.
then we need to know when is ramadan.for it is true that the ashhur all haram start after the shaher of ramadan and that is what i have noticed.so know how do we know that ramadan has started.
or it is the coming shaher .
the quran tells us that the shaher of ramadan is a shaher of bayinat that we will be signaled with many signs to know it is it.
so let us see,since it is only a five night and day shaher as all the other regular shahers then it must be evident during the days that come before it that will give us all those signs.that it will be clear that this month is different.
so let us see together what are those signs.
1-the rain will start to fall again after a long summer.ramadan
2 change of season.
3-plants beggin to grow again.
4-the days stop form getting bigger and they start to get smaller.
5-one big moon in the sky and i mean really big. the biggest you can find all year round.the collor is different too.
6-the sun is different during sun set even after it sets those collors are differnt and the sun have a round shape we can see,with out hurting our eyes.it is also the biggest sun we can ever see.
7- all this in a few days likesome twenty days.or twenty six and can be found together with in that time frame.
6-some call the moon the harvest moon for the fulll moon during that time is full of light,and one can see very clearly.
so we get all those signs and then we know that the time this time when the moon is not there any more for those comming few days it is called the shaher of ramadan.yes five days we are ordered to fast those days without a moon.
during those days is lalayet al qadr.remmember when the quran says,(wa kan kaba qawsayne aw adna)yes between those too cresents when there is no moon to light the night,and there is only darkness it is the shaher.
the thing about those ashhur el hurum and ramadan well they dont change seasons,yes mostly ramadan is in september or october,and the hurum ashhur basically come,in march april and october december.
but do the experiments your selfs dont take my word for it.
inshaalah allah will lead us with the quran and nothing else,every thing else is shurk and will result in many ikhtilaf.
brother please forgive me if i have mistaken or mislead you in any way.
Allah knows best.
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Salaam Mohamad
A good finding of yours that the word -shahr- does not mean month but relates to something else.
For now I do not see Koranic proof for the interpretation of the word -shahr- as the phase of invisibility of the moon.a ahillat is the combination of the hillals that is between or around five days. when the moon dies and there are those nights with out the moon then the moon is born again.those nights are what we call a shaher.yes those nights with out a moon.
A quote from the article of brother Ayman about the timing of the period of abstinence
--- Classical Arabic Dictionaries deal extensively with the etymology of the word "shahr". For instance in the discussion of "shahr", it gives "ash-harat", a derivative of "shahr", as meaning a pregnant woman whose belly is round. It also gives the meaning of "shahira(t)" as a big wide woman. It also gives the meaning of "ash-har" as the bright white color of flowers. The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, round, and bright full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim new crescent moon. ---Your interpretation of the word -shahr- as the hidden phase of the moon is the opposite of obvious, wide, public.
bare with me ,so now we know that a shaher is not the moon cycle,but the cycle of the ahillat.great,so how do we know ashhur al haram,we know from quran they are four.in one year four of those shahers have less nights then the ussuall ashhur.yes it is strange they are the shahers that come after the shaher of ramadan.and i will tell you how we know it is ramadan ,give me another minute.
only those ashhur all haram are seperate from eachother they like have two ashhur between them that are regular ashhur.in ahshur all haram their nights are only four and the rest of the ashhur have five nights.
so ashhur all haram are about four days long each and they are four.they come in pairs,this is what the test shows and often they are devided by a pair of regular shahers not months dont make the mistake of thinking a shaher is month.The -shahr haram- lasting the whole period of four full moons together with the days in between, was a period in which violence was utmost restricted.
Koranic proof for the fact that the restricted moons are about regulation of conflicts - relevant rulings
Verse 936 ? the believers are not allowed to wrong themselves concerning the restricted month ? the exception is self-defense against the polytheists.
Verse 2217 ? the fighting in the restricted month is a grave matter but repelling from the path of God and evicting people from the ?masjid el haram- is worse.
Verse 2194 ? during the restricted month retaliation is allowed in case of aggression.
Verse 95 ? when the restricted months are over, the believers (within the context of a just war) are allowed to attack the idolaters.One can hardly assume that the timing of this important period was very divided and subjective.
The witnessing of a -hilal- is not very objective - the unclearness about the -hilal- could easily be abused by forces who would claim not to have seen the -hilal- yet.the quran tells us that the shaher of ramadan is a shaher of bayinat that we will be signaled with many signs to know it is it.
so let us see,since it is only a five night and day shaher as all the other regular shahers then it must be evident during the days that come before it that will give us all those signs.that it will be clear that this month is different.
so let us see together what are those signs.
1-the rain will start to fall again after a long summer.ramadan
2 change of season.
3-plants beggin to grow again.
4-the days stop form getting bigger and they start to get smaller.
5-one big moon in the sky and i mean really big. the biggest you can find all year round.the collor is different too.
6-the sun is different during sun set even after it sets those collors are differnt and the sun have a round shape we can see,with out hurting our eyes.it is also the biggest sun we can ever see.
7- all this in a few days likesome twenty days.or twenty six and can be found together with in that time frame.
6-some call the moon the harvest moon for the fulll moon during that time is full of light,and one can see very clearly.You make several assumptions, can you give Koranic verses that support them?
during those days is lalayet al qadr.remmember when the quran says,(wa kan kaba qawsayne aw adna)yes between those too cresents when there is no moon to light the night,and there is only darkness it is the shaher.
Verse 539 relates to the distance between the Giver of the revelation and His servant - it does not relate to the timing.
It seems to be an assumption that the event in -soorat el najm- 531-18 was the same event as the descending of the Koran during -lailat el qadr- - verse 971.the thing about those ashhur el hurum and ramadan well they dont change seasons,yes mostly ramadan is in september or october,and the hurum ashhur basically come,in march april and october december.
These are assumptions and need Koranic evidence for support.
I advice you to keep on researching this subject - if you want to share your findings it is better to provide the Koranic evidence next to each assumption and that you give the relevant verse-numbers.
Salaam
truthseeker171 -
from what i understood by reading the quran it was clear that the days to fast are only two.
please read m previous post to know what i am speaking about.
the days to fast they are only two it seems from the quran it states that you can be with your wife on that night because it was a night of the fasting day and then eat and drink till day break then fast till night.
those are two full days.
mostly maybe a shahr is not longer then two days. only in al ashhur al hurum they might be three days,because we have to fast for three days there too.
just a thought .
but i still need to know when is the shahr of ramadan.i think it is the autoumn with the full moon and when it starts to rain again in change of season ,then allah subhanah will bring back the plants to life. in that shahr meaning the days with the moonless nights meaning al shahr.
salam. -
yes brother i need to back this up with proof form the quran ,i agree completely it has to be supported and simple in the quran to assume it is right.
as for the other conclusions i like them too especially ayman ,he led me that far.
but for the meaning of the words from the quran that are in historical arabic and how they were used.
i really dont like it,i think it is taweel.
then we will be opening a big door that will allow any one to come and say hey we used to say that word for that and then play on the meanings.
it is very important to use the quran.i dont even take ahadeath so please let us not get into the meaning of words from arabic sources and thank you .
salam -
Salaam Mohamad
from what i understood by reading the quran it was clear that the days to fast are only two.
mostly maybe a shahr is not longer then two days. only in al ashhur al hurum they might be three days,because we have to fast for three days there too.
just a thought .According to the Koran there is only one communal period of abstention in the year - the -shahr ramadan-.
The period of abstention is related to the Arabic word -shahr-, meaning full, obvious.
The phases of the moon like the -hilal- and the -shahr- are mentioned in the Koran.
The -hilal- are related to the -hajj- not to the only other communal event the -saum-, the fasting - verse 2189.
The Koranic fact that in verse 2189 the -saum- is not mentioned, seems to be Koranic evidence for that the -saum- has nothing to do with the -hilal- as indicators of the start and ending of the period of abstinence.
So it seems to be logical to link the period of abstention to the phase of the moon that is called -shahr-, the full moon.Verse 2185 states that the duration of a full moon is relevant for the length of the period of abstention.
- ... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast therein ... -
One can only witness a moon that is visible, one cannot witness the absent moon.
The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2184 requires a number of more than two.
The duration of the full-moon illusion with at least 98% coverage is three days.
So I agree with you that the period of fasting is three days.but i still need to know when is the shahr of ramadan.i think it is the autoumn with the full moon and when it starts to rain again in change of season ,then allah subhanah will bring back the plants to life. in that shahr meaning the days with the moonless nights meaning al shahr.
The -shahr ramadan- is related to the scorching heat - the warmest period of the year - in Arabia that is objectively the period of the summersolstice.
So the first full moon -shahr- after the summersolstice seems to be relevant as the indicator for the abstinence.
The full moon lasts three days - so the duration of the fast is three days.
Other issues related to the rain and season-change seem not to be supported by the Koran.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
Finding the start of the period of abstinence of -shahr ramadan- 2010
The period of abstention is related to the first full moon after the summer solstice.
In the year 2010 God-willing the first full moon after the summer solstice will be at June 26 ? 1132 GMT - Greenwich Mean TimeAccording to verse 2187 the believers eat en drink and may have intercourse in accordance with the rulings of the Koran, until the earliest light in the sky before sunrise.
In Europe the start of the actual abstinence is with the beginning of -fajr- at June 27.
The night of abstinence can be celebrated and the believers prepare for the actual abstinence.The believers around the world should check if this GMT timing of 1132 is before or after their local sunsets, to see if they have to prepare for the abstention during the night of the fast.
If this timing is after the local sunset then the fasting should be a day later, because the believers have according to verse 2187 the whole night to prepare for the fasting - not just a part of it.truthseeker171
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
Salam, Peace,
Thanks for this reminder, I witnessed the Full moon on that night and I am fasting these 3 days. In the time table for "maghrib salat", I noticed these are the longest day of the year.
Peace and Thanks
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Salaam Herbman
Ramadan kareem
I witnessed the Full moon on that night and I am fasting these 3 days. In the time table for "maghrib salat", I noticed these are the longest day of the year.
Indeed, from the moment just before -fajr- until the traditional maghreb-timing is the right timing for the actual abstinence during the day.
On the Northern Hemisphere it is the longest daylight-time of the year.
The word -saum- means to be at rest, so it is well adviced to sleep and rest as much as is possible during the actual act of fasting , apart from performing the -salaat el woosta-.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
truth seeker.
i have something that i want to share with you ,tell me what you think.
the aya is clear it says that who ever sees the full moon the shahr then he must fast.
and in here we despute whta is a shahr is say it is the no moon like the new moon as it is known and you say it is the full moon.
i dont know.
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.
i want to give you an example
when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.
pls let us reflect more on this ,i think we need to giveit more time ,dont jump to conclusions and dont get misguided from thta which is not quran. i see it gives others the exact opposite as some claim that the prophet saws used to fast on a full moon. pls we have to discover from the quran.
let us see further this issue.
salam -
Salaam Mohamad
the aya says who ever sees it then he must fast.
does this meanthat seeing and fasting go togther.Verse 2185 states that when one witnesses the -shahr ramadan- one has to abstain it.
Witnessing can mean literally seeing, but allegorically it can mean being present.
Millions of people did not see the -shahr ramadan- because it was clouded in their region.
So following moon-calendars could be the best way - the believers can witness the -shahr ramadan- in the most unambiguous way.when i say the shahr is the no moon or known as full moon then you should clearly know that it can be seen once .
yes the moon that cannot be seen at night when it is new can sometimes be see during the day and this happens once a year what do you think.
so we can some how see that something happens once a year for like two days where the moon can be seen after sunset adn during the day but there is no moon it is a new moon and that happens once a year.We can not prove your assumption that once a year the new moon is seen during the day and not during the night. This is highly unlikely.
The -shahr ramadan- is one of the 12 or 13 full moons of the year - it is related to the scorching heat - that is the meaning of the word ramadan.
In Arabia that is the moment of the summersolstice - june 21.
The first full moon after the summersolstice indicates the period of abstention - this once a year and unambiguous.Salaam
truthseeker171 -
to say that ramadan means the scorching heat then this is " taweel" to say a word means sometihng so that it fits our understanding.
i dont think i can agree with that.
look at the possibilities.
peace.