I need help on a debate.
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Basically I need some clear unbiased arguments (moderate) against a sunni hujjur.
His statements as such.
1/ The sahih hadith are infallible
2/ Hadith such as 'angels wont visit houses with dogs and pictures' are true
3/ The Quran tells us to follow the sunnah explicitly and uses the actual word sunnah
4/ The method of preservation of the Quran is the same as hadith
5/ hadith represents wahy (second revelation alongside Quran)
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Salam
I will try to answer according to my knowledge.
1/..
What determines a Sahih hadith, as there is no consensus amongst the Muhadaseen about Sahihness.
2/..
Quran talks about dogs as pets, and patting of dogs, may be Father of kitten (abu huraira) has something to do with these hadiths.
3/..
Quran talks of Sunnat of Allah not prophet Muhammad (pbuh)4/..
Quran calls itself a book, that means it already existed as a book during time of prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
and there is a hadith where Jibrael reviewed Quran with prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
5/..
Quran is the only wahy per Quran.. -
Basically I need some clear unbiased arguments (moderate) against a sunni hujjur.
His statements as such.
1/ The sahih hadith are infallible
If they are infalible why so many contradictions like abu hurairah and his stories of how many wives soloman slept with among others. Prophet urinates sitting and standing in hadith. Godl OR silver ring in hadith, many others
2/ Hadith such as 'angels wont visit houses with dogs and pictures' are true
where did GOD say it? According to Quran the dog is a friend to man. The pictures thing has been twisted from worshipping images.3/ The Quran tells us to follow the sunnah explicitly and uses the actual word sunnah
It says the sunnah of Allah, nowhere does it say the sunnah of Muhammed, it says all prophets followed the sunnah of GOD.4823 Sunnata Allahi allatee qad khalat minqablu walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan
(Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah already in the past no change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.
4085 Falam yaku yanfaAAuhum eemanuhum lammaraaw ba/sana sunnata Allahi allatee qad khalat feeAAibadihi wakhasira hunalika alkafiroona
But their professing the Faith when they (actually) saw Our Punishment was not going to profit them. (Such has been) Allah's Way of dealing with His Servants (from the most ancient times). And even thus did the Rejecters of Allah perish (utterly)
3362 Sunnata Allahi fee allatheenakhalaw min qablu walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan
(Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.
1777 Sunnata man qad arsalna qablaka minrusulina wala tajidu lisunnatina tahweelan
(This was Our) way with the messengers We sent before thee thou wilt find no change in Our ways.
4/ The method of preservation of the Quran is the same as hadith
If that was the case then every hadith about the same thing would be worded exactly the same and there would be no contradictions. that is all irrelavant anyway as we should follow the words of GOD not the words of man irrespective of how they claim they were reserved. There are many hadith that blatantly contradict Quran and if they were preserved in the same way how come Bukhari collection that is claimed sahih is less than 1% of the total he collected?
5/ hadith represents wahy (second revelation alongside Quran)
So God forgot bits and added them later? God forgets nothing and man ALWAYS has claimed these things every single time God sent a message man added his bits to change it, see how Quran tells you what the Jews did and the Christians. God clearly tells you THIS (Quran) hadith is the one to follow and nothing after it.456 Tilka ayatu Allahinatlooha AAalayka bialhaqqi fabi-ayyi hadeethinbaAAda Allahi waayatihi yu/minoona
Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?
316 Wamina alnnasi man yashtareelahwa alhadeethi liyudilla AAan sabeeli Allahibighayri AAilmin wayattakhithaha huzuwan ola-ikalahum AAathabun muheenun
But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path) for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty
5234 Falya/too bihadeethin mithlihi in kanoosadiqeena
Let them then produce a recital like unto it,- If (it be) they speak the truth!
17185 Awalam yanthuroo feemalakooti alssamawati waal-ardiwama khalaqa Allahu min shay-in waan AAasaan yakoona qadi iqtaraba ajaluhum fabi-ayyi hadeethinbaAAdahu yu/minoona
Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what message after this will they then believe?
3923 Allahu nazzala ahsana alhadeethikitaban mutashabihan mathaniya taqshaAAirruminhu juloodu allatheena yakhshawna rabbahum thummataleenu julooduhum waquloobuhum ila thikri Allahithalika huda Allahi yahdee bihi man yashaowaman yudlili Allahu fama lahu min hadin
Allah has revealed (from time to time) the most beautiful Message in the form of a Book, consistent with itself, (yet) repeating (its teaching in various aspects) the skins of those who fear their Lord tremble thereat; then their skins and their hearts do soften to the celebration of Allah's praises. Such is the guidance of Allah He guides therewith whom He pleases, but such as Allah leaves to stray, can have none to guide
hope this helps, not got a lot of time now soz ;D
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peace,
There are a ton of arguments you could use. The person whom you are debating with is unlikely to be knowledgeable of the areas you wish to discuss, but the following might help
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I have not heard of any Traditional Scholar who says 100% of sahih hadiths are infallible. Can he name a "scholar"? (not that I give much weight to "scholars" but traditionalists seem to, hence the request)
There are sites/articles which list the nonsensical and contradictory hadith in the sahih collections, you could use them.
If dogs really scares away angels, it means that this verse is nonsense as these people only have to bring in some dogs
4380 Or do they think that We do not hear their secrets and private counsel? Yes indeed; and Our messengers are with them, recording everything.
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dogs-allowed-muslims.htm
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The Quran never mentions prophet's sunna or prophet's hadith, it mentions God's sunnah. Ask him for a verse reference.
A commonly stated argument by those who wish to raise traditional hearsay/ahadith to divine-status level is that its compilation was the same as The Quran.
Is that really true? Lets look at the simple and obvious facts...
The Quran = God's Word
Ahadith = man's wordThe Quran = 100% fact/truth/perfect
Ahadith = mix of truth and falsehood (hence weak and strong hadith)The Quran = recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet Muhammad
Ahadith = not recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet MuhammadThe Quran = written AND memorised word for word as soon as it was transmitted
Ahadith = no-one ever claimed to record and memorise ahadith word for word as soon as it was transmittedThe Quran = protected explicitly by God Himself as stated in The Quran
Ahadith = no such explicit protection statedThe Quran = no Muslim doubts its credibility
Ahadith = each sect has its own versions, weak & strong ones etcThe Quran = in-built verification mechanism, e.g. challenges others to find inconsistancy, bring a chapter like it etc.
Ahadith = no such in-built mechanism, full of inconsistancies etc.Ask him for the name of any "scholar" who says their method of collection was identical.
http//mahjoorquran.blogspot.com/2006/11/authority-of-al-quran-by-kashif-ahmed.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htm
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_clear_complete_detailed_explained.htm
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_True_Sunnah_of_Messenger_Naveed.htm
etc. -
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If dogs really scares away angels, it means that this verse is nonsense as these people only have to bring in some dogs
4380 Or do they think that We do not hear their secrets and private counsel? Yes indeed; and Our messengers are with them, recording everything
not these angels but what I?ve heard that "Angels of mercy? do not visit such houses. I?ve not read the exact hadith though.
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If they are infalible why so many contradictions like abu hurairah and his stories of how many wives soloman slept with among others.
Ayisha indeed I did read your post on the discrepancies of the number of wives, and I found in the all the hadith books/excerpts from one website, the numbers were all the same (seventy), tbh I think someone noticed the gross mistake and just fixed it to a constant number.
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Basically I need some clear unbiased arguments (moderate) against a sunni hujjur.
His statements as such.
1/ The sahih hadith are infallible
2/ Hadith such as 'angels wont visit houses with dogs and pictures' are true
3/ The Quran tells us to follow the sunnah explicitly and uses the actual word sunnah
4/ The method of preservation of the Quran is the same as hadith
5/ hadith represents wahy (second revelation alongside Quran)
The Authority of Al-Qur'an by Kashif Ahmed Shehzada
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Peace Nafi
There are many good arguments in this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12519.0
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Well if angels don't visit houses with dogs or pictures, then does that mean you can do any wrongdoing? Will the little pug scare away the Kiraman Katibin leaving you free to eat a bacon sarnie seeing as it won't be recorded?
tempt
Whoever thought up that one was really careless.
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Ayisha indeed I did read your post on the discrepancies of the number of wives, and I found in the all the hadith books/excerpts from one website, the numbers were all the same (seventy), tbh I think someone noticed the gross mistake and just fixed it to a constant number.
lol so now someone is 'fixing' the ahadith?
the site I got it from still has the same numbers I gave and so do the actual printed BOOKS of Sahih hadith. Fact is the man was a liar and a story teller and his 'hadith' should not be taken as sahih just on those grounds alon, IF as they claim the 'science' of hadith is so thorough.
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Well if angels don't visit houses with dogs or pictures, then does that mean you can do any wrongdoing? Will the little pug scare away the Kiraman Katibin leaving you free to eat a bacon sarnie seeing as it won't be recorded?
tempt
Whoever thought up that one was really careless.
may be you didn?t pay attention, but as I said before its not about kiraman katibin but only the ?angels of mercy? as I have heard.
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may be you didnt pay attention, but as I said before its not about kiraman katibin but only the angels of mercy as I have heard.
...propound...
P.s. I didn't read the replies before I posted. Sorry Master &
No need to elaborate. IslamQA to the rescue. I stand corrected.
With regard to these angels who do not enter a house in which there is a dog or an image, they are the angels who go round with mercy, blessings and prayers for forgiveness. With regard to the recording angels, they enter every house and never leave the sons of Adam under any circumstances, because they are enjoined to list and record their deeds.
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...propound...
P.s. I didn't read the replies before I posted. Sorry Master &
but I just read the hadith it doesn?t mention ?angels of mercy? it says angels ;D
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Ayisha indeed I did read your post on the discrepancies of the number of wives, and I found in the all the hadith books/excerpts from one website, the numbers were all the same (seventy), tbh I think someone noticed the gross mistake and just fixed it to a constant number.
here you go nafi
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 74i
Narrated Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "Once Solomon, son of David said, '(By Allah) Tonight I will have sexual intercourse with one hundred (or ninety-nine) women each of whom will give birth to a knight who will fight in Allah's Cause.' On that a (i.e. if Allah wills) but he did not say, 'Allah willing.' Therefore only one of those women conceived and gave birth to a half-man. By Him in Whose Hands Muhammad's life is, if he had said, "Allah willing', (he would have begotten sons) all of whom would have been knights striving in Allah's Cause."
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.074iVolume 4, Book 55, Number 635
Narrated Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, "Solomon (the son of) David said, 'Tonight I will sleep with seventy ladies each of whom will conceive a child who will be a knight fighting for "Allah's Cause.' His companion said, 'If Allah will.' But Solomon did not say so; therefore none of those women got pregnant except one who gave birth to a half child." The Prophet further said, "If the Prophet Solomon had said it (i.e. 'If Allah will' he would have begotten children who would have fought in Allah's Cause." Shuaib and Ibn Abi Az-Zinad said, "Ninety (women) is more correct (than seventy)."
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/055.sbt.html#004.055.632Volume 7, Book 62, Number 169
Narrated Abu Huraira
(The Prophet) Solomon son of (the Prophet) David said, "Tonight I will go round (i.e. have sexual relations with) one hundred women (my wives) everyone of whom will deliver a male child who will fight in Allah's Cause." On that an Angel said to him, "Say 'If Allah will.' " But Solomon did not say it and forgot to say it. Then he had sexual relations with them but none of them delivered any child except one who delivered a half person. The Prophet said, "If Solomon had said 'If Allah will,' Allah would have fulfilled his (above) desire and that saying would have made him more hopeful."
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/062.sbt.html#007.062.169Volume 8, Book 78, Number 634
Narrated Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "(The Prophet) Solomon once said, 'Tonight I will sleep with ninety women, each of whom will bring forth a (would-be) cavalier who will fight in Allah's Cause." On this, his companion said to him, "Say Allah willing!" But he did not say Allah willing. Solomon then slept with all the women, but none of them became pregnant but one woman who later delivered a half-man. By Him in Whose Hand Muhammad's soul is, if he (Solomon) had said, 'Allah willing' (all his wives would have brought forth boys) and they would have fought in Allah's Cause as cavaliers. "
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/078.sbt.html#008.078.634Volume 8, Book 79, Number 711
Narrated Abu Huraira
(The Prophet) Solomon said, "Tonight I will sleep with (my) ninety wives, each of whom will get a male child who will fight for Allah's Cause." On that, his companion (Sufyan said that his companion was an angel) said to him, "Say, "If Allah will (Allah willing)." But Solomon forgot (to say it). He slept with all his wives, but none of the women gave birth to a child, except one who gave birth to a halfboy. Abu Huraira added The Prophet said, "If Solomon had said, "If Allah will" (Allah willing), he would not have been unsuccessful in his action, and would have attained what he had desired." Once Abu Huraira added Allah apostle said, "If he had accepted."
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/079.sbt.html#008.079.711Volume 9, Book 93, Number 561
Narrated Abu Huraira
Allah's Prophet Solomon who had sixty wives, once said, "Tonight I will have sexual relation (sleep) with all my wives so that each of them will become pregnant and bring forth (a boy who will grow into) a cavalier and will fight in Allah's Cause." So he slept with his wives and none of them (conceived and) delivered (a child) except one who brought a half (body) boy (deformed). Allah's Prophet said, "If Solomon had said; 'If Allah Will,' then each of those women would have delivered a (would-be) cavalier to fight in Allah's Cause." (See Hadith No. 74 A, Vol. 4).
http//www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/093.sbt.html#009.093.561;D
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...propound...
P.s. I didn't read the replies before I posted. Sorry Master &
No need to elaborate. IslamQA to the rescue. I stand corrected.
With regard to these angels who do not enter a house in which there is a dog or an image, they are the angels who go round with mercy, blessings and prayers for forgiveness. With regard to the recording angels, they enter every house and never leave the sons of Adam under any circumstances, because they are enjoined to list and record their deeds.
so they do go to the toilet with us then? I thought none went to the toilet with us and stayed outside, hence reciting something when we go so the devil wont get us while we are unprotected by the angels of whatever. Now you islam qa have confirmed there will be angels writing my 'deeds' of the bathroom? &
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so they do go to the toilet with us then? I thought none went to the toilet with us and stayed outside, hence reciting something when we go so the devil wont get us while we are unprotected by the angels of whatever. Now you islam qa have confirmed there will be angels writing my 'deeds' of the bathroom? &
It's only a bathroom in your mind (unless you have a door sign of course). I would say just keep the door open but the forcefield between the threshold said to be indefinitely impermeable.
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so they do go to the toilet with us then? I thought none went to the toilet with us and stayed outside, hence reciting something when we go so the devil wont get us while we are unprotected by the angels of whatever. Now you islam qa have confirmed there will be angels writing my 'deeds' of the bathroom? &
they also watch you with your husband and when you refuse your husband they curse you till dawn!
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I am confused now ... there seem to be different breeds of angels. Some enter the house when I have dogs and pictures, some don't. hypno
So we have
~ al Khattaabi, the "recording angels" who are constantly around me with their little notepads. They don't mind if I have pictures on the wall or a dog. Why? Because they are so busy writing down my good and bad deeds that they won't notice anyway? Or maybe they like being around pictures and dogs?
~ the "angels of mercy" who "go around with mercy, blessings and prayers for forgiveness". They won't enter my house when I have pictures or dogs. Why? Are they afraid of dogs? Don't they like pictures? And if they are indeed angels of mercy, why are they being so finicky in regards to silly things such as pictures and dogs?
This is all very fascinating and confusing!
I wonder how all those great scholars found out about this. Did they actually interview the angels or what? How do they know about the different kinds of angels and their preferences?
http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5153 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5147 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5184 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5132 http//www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5158
