Taking off the Hijab
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Imo, modesty should be defined by the dictates of the time/locale in discussion. So, while modesty is required "everywhere," the details of what modesty entails vary. It's a qualified relativism.
Peace CavemanDoctor,
Thank you for your answer. But my first and second questions in the post, were rhetorical questions. Hence, i answered them myself. I tried to find the meaning of the concept "qualified relativism" on the internet but I could not find it. I think modesty should not only be defined by the dictates of time/locale in discussion, as this would go against these quranic verses 235-6 and 2431.
For example in the gym in the country I live in, it is very common that men shower naked in front of other men in the wardrobe of the gym, and that women shower naked in front of other women in the wardrobe of the gym. But if someone follows islam based on quran, he/she should not shower naked in front of other men or women in the gym wardrobe. Why? Because in verses 235-6 and verse 2431, we are told to guard our private parts, which means men should not show their private parts in a gym wardrobe to other men, and women should not show their private parts in a gym wardrobe to other women. Therefore, we can see from the above example that modesty is not defined by the dictates of locale in discussion.
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Relativism is the idea that some elements or aspects of experience or culture are relative to, i.e., dependent on, other elements or aspects.
limited or restricted; not absolute
'qualified relativism' means a relative/subjective/variable element within defined limits (i.e. qualified), in other words there is a minimum defined/specified/set criteria and the rest is relative, dependent on time/locale/wearer/situation/society/etc.
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I got two more questions for you
- How do you think men and women should dress when they are in the beach?
- Is modesty important on the beach? Are the quranic limits/laws important on the beach also?
salam,
look at this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598402.0 -
below are a few different translations i got off the submitters website for 2431
"And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests" Khalifa translation
"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms" Pickthall translation
"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms" Shakir Translation
"And say to the believing women that they restrain their looks and guard their private parts, and that they display not their beauty or their embellishment except that which is apparent thereof, and that they draw their head-coverings over their bosoms" Sher Alin translation
when i stop wearing hijab, i was wondering what my requirements are from the Quran when it comes to covering my chest, at the moment i just have my hijab go lower over my top to do the job. this is even when im not wearing low-cut tops which would reveal any skin.
my question is would you consider the veil asked for in the Quran as tops that cover your chest well or would you on top of your cloths need another layer like a shall or scarf to cover any shape?
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http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm
thanks for the link wakas,
i meant isamic dress in relation to chest area, i cant figure out if just covering with cloths is enough (eg shirt) or would you need a to draw an extra layer over?
i've had this debate and different translations make me unsure, does anyone know or have an opinion they can back using Quran?
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thanks for the link wakas,
i meant isamic dress in relation to chest area, i cant figure out if just covering with cloths is enough (eg shirt) or would you need a to draw an extra layer over?
i've had this debate and different translations make me unsure, does anyone know or have an opinion they can back using Quran?
I don't have an opinion that I can back up using the Qur'an directly, but only something that I believe is relevant. I'm going to cut-and-paste Muhammad Asad's footnote for that verse in mention.
Muhammad Asad - End Note 37 (2431)
My interpolation of the word "decently" reflects the interpretation of the phrase illa ma zahara minha by several of the earliest Islamic scholars, and particularly by Al-Qiffal (quoted by Razi) as "that which a human being may openly show in accordance with prevailing custom (al-adah al-jariyah)". Although the traditional exponents of Islamic Law have for centuries been inclined to restrict the definition of "what may be apparent" to a woman's face, hands and feet - and sometimes even less than that - we may safely assume that the meaning off illa ma zahara minha is much wider, and that the deliberate vagueness of this phrase is meant to allow for all the time-bound changes that are necessary for man's moral and social growth. The pivotal clause in the above injunction is the demand, addressed in identical terms to men as well as to women, to "lower their gaze and be mindful of their chastity" and this determines the extent of what, at any given time, may legitimately - i.e., in consonance with the Quranic principles of social morality - be considered "decent" or "indecent" in a person's outward appearance.
Muhammad Asad - End Note 38 (2431)
The noun khimar (of which khumur is the plural) denotes the head-covering customarily used by Arabian women before and after the advent of Islam. According to most of the classical commentators, it was worn in pre-Islamic times more or less as all ornament and was let down loosely over the wearer's back; and since, in accordance with the fashion prevalent at the time, the upper part of a woman's tunic had a wide opening in the front, her breasts cleavage were left bare. Hence, the injunction to cover the bosom by means of a khimar, (a term so familiar to the contemporaries of the Prophet) does not necessarily relate to the use of a khimar as such but is, rather, meant to make it clear that a woman's breasts are not included in the concept of "what may decently be apparent" of her body and should not, therefore, be displayed. -
An Apology to the Non-Hijabi
At a recent Egyptian dinner in honor of a visitor to our town, I encountered a situation that opened by eyes to an important issue that is rarely addressed.
I approached the honored guest to offer my obligatory salaams. She seemed nice, more quiet than others and the wrinkles on her face indicated that she must be a grandma. She asked me hesitantly which one of the women behind me was my mom so she can extend her good wishes to our family. I pointed in the direction of where my mother was assisting the ladies set the table for dinner, The old lady gasped for air and looked puzzled and said with disgust FOR EVERYONE TO HEAR
"Why doesn't your mom wear hijab? And how come you wear hijab and your mother doesn't?"
My initial reaction was to tell the woman off. But given the setting, the people she was related to I cared about and my good upbringing, I defied my instincts and calmly responded "Why don't you ask her yourself?"
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I realize now, years into my understanding of my own identity of a Muslim American woman, that most frequently women who don't wear hijab tend to be harassed, marginalized, patronized, lectured, judged, attacked, and insulted--get this--BY THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES, the Muslim community specifically.I've read countless articles, blogs, books, etc where Muslim women whine about their rights to cover, to not be judged for their choices, etc. But the opposite isn't always true. If a woman by choice doesn't wear the hijab, she is mistreated or pressured by the community to become a hijabi. I find it interesting that Muslims tend to preach and demand rights from others, yet they fail to fulfill them themselves. Where is the respect, freedom of choice and tolerant attitudes when it comes to Muslim women who don't wear hijab?
I would like to say it loud and clear for everyone to hear Muslim women who DON'T wear hijab are Muslim; they can be practicing; they can be God-fearing; they can love God more than a hijabi ever will; they can provide for the community. A piece of cloth doesn't determine who you are with relation to God.
Hijab doesn't mean piety. I've met the most despicable people who wear hijab, niqab, abaya, or whatever. And I've also met the nicest, most practicing, most inspiring women who don't wear hijab, but are modest in their heart, body and soul.
A recent Twitter buddy was upset when she took a short cab ride to her job in Cairo City, Egypt. The driver guilt her about her exposed hair. He told her she must cover because it's the duty of Muslim women to cover. She embarrassingly admitted that she wasn't Muslim and his lecture didn't apply to her. He then continued with his abuse and told her she was going to hell either way then!
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I think the 'holier-than-thou' attitudes in the Muslim community have no place in Islam. Prophet Muhammad didn't teach hate, but love. He taught us to be kind, to react calmly and to be gentle. I say we leave judging for God and embrace one another so we can fulfill the Godly command in the Quran to stand united by one another to battle evil and do good.On behalf of the abusive men and women who have made you feel 'less' of a Muslim or who have lectured you endlessly on the lack of your faith, I would like to apologize to you, the Muslim Non-Hijabi, for all the pain and disrespect we've intentionally and unintentionally caused in the name of God.
Forgive us.
http//organicmuslimah.blogspot.com/2010/06/apology-to-non-hijabi.html
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Just a little update on my situation. I did remove it completely for a while and was met with some expected and unexpected reactions. Most simply pretended not to notice and they were the same people who pretended not to notice when I put it on. Some however gave me the reaction I was hesitant to face. Nothing I couldn't deal with though and I think I did deal with most of what was said amicably.
As of now I'm wearing it but not wearing it. I wear it (extremely lax, mind) when I'm out and in a place where I'd rather just be left alone and I wear it when I know I'll be visiting the Mosque that day. The people I spend time with still don't really get it though. I made one acquaintance fully aware of my new approach to covering the hair although when I removed it yesterday to adjust something there was a bit of a kerfuffle about my hair being exposed. I guess it will take a bit of getting used to which is why I have tried to be patient with people, after all they strongly believe in the head-covering as a symbol of their faith and someone being so unconcerned about it (although it's really no ones business) is bound to get tongues wagging.
I'm generally just trying to get a bit more comfortable in my own skin and accustomed to being without it which isn't so easy after forming such a bond with it. Bit like Stockholm syndrome if you ask me.
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What do i men by modest clothes? In the pictures below are some examples of modest clothing that women who follow islam based on quran can get ideas/inspiration from
http//img.christa-taylor.com/t/category-product/img/graphics/00000001/p-canvasbib.jpg
http//www.tznius.com/images/products/cordtieredskirt1.JPG
http//www.catholichomeandgarden.com/Modest%20Clothing/Floral%20Essence%20Modest%20Clothing.jpg
http//mastina.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/wt6127b.jpg
http//www.silhouettes.com/HanoverAssets/silhouettes/large_images/7A256230_BO.jpg
http//www.denimology.com/2009/03/Z2H5QRKIZ4_JJennifer_Love_Hewitt_inGenetic_Denim_Boyfriend_jeans_JTn_Toluca_Lake_-March_7_36.jpg
http//www.modestclothingsite.com/images/modest-clothing.jpg
http//www.likeawarmcupofcoffee.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sponsor-pics-0084.jpgSorry but those clothes look hideous! You can dress modestly and look good.
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There are right and wrong times for modesty. In day to day life when you don't need to attract attention, modesty is good, it stops one from been bothered by people. On the other hand, if you're trying to get a job or find a partner, modest is the opposite of the way you need to be. When you need attention from other people, you need to stand out, you need to attract, to be like a peacock, not a timid mouse.
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There are right and wrong times for modesty. In day to day life when you don't need to attract attention, modesty is good, it stops one from been bothered by people. On the other hand, if you're trying to get a job or find a partner, modest is the opposite of the way you need to be. When you need attention from other people, you need to stand out, you need to attract, to be like a peacock, not a timid mouse.
What nonsense. Modesty doesn't make one timid. People can stand out in numerous ways not just body image.
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It is interesting though that for many people "modesty" seems to be somehow connected to "timidity".
http//img52.imageshack.us/img52/2631/confused6.gif
I think that goes for many Muslim men who propagate the veil too. Their ideal is indeed a timid woman. Ever noted how they love mentioning "modesty" and "shyness" together and praising them? I always found this offputting, shyness is not a positive thing. And neither is timidity, for that matter.I think that's also why they often get aggressive when a woman does not cover and is not apolegetic about it. They simply don't like the idea of a self-assertive woman who does not feel the need to hide, be silent, stay in her house, who does not buy into the notion that this is what God intended for us.
In short, they don't like women who make their presence known; it does not go along with their patriarchal ideas of obedient, timid, women, trying to appear invisible and un-feminine whenever they go out, never drawing any sort of attention to themselves, not making their voice heard in front of men and so on.
For them, submission to the veil means all those things, so rejecting it means that you are rejecting all those "values" they claim a woman has to try to achieve. They are abhorred by the idea of non-veiled, non-timid women who are not afraid of making their voices heard and being noticed. Thus the constant emotional blackmail, the endless talks about women's dress, the lectures about "modesty" being THE most important thing for a woman.
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Thoughts On Modesty
by Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood
'Every religion has its characteristic, and the characteristic of Islam is modesty.'
This statement made some 1400 years ago by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is just as relevant today as it was then. The Prophet (pbuh) lived in turbulent times, when slavery, debauchery, drunkenness and sexual abuse was rife; when poor women could be maltreated without redress and wealthy women could live totally without morals if they wished, without much criticism. When the Prophet (pbuh) was a teenage boy he was one of the founder members of a society of Knights of Justice created by his uncle, determined to bring protection and fair dealing to the weak and insecure. He, and those of like mind, were loved and admired for their nobility, years before the revelation of Islam. The revelations, when they came, encouraged and exhorted them to show others that compassion, generosity, courage, modesty and patient faith were the right way to live.
Modesty is such a 'quiet' characteristic, that perhaps nobody thinks about it very much. What are modest people like? They are self-effacing, and humble; they do not wish to draw too much attention to themselves. They feel embarrassed when they are given praise, and genuinely do not really feel they have done all that much to deserve it, for everything they do is their no more than their duty and their delight, in serving God. They would hate to be picked out for praise above their fellows, or pushed forward into the limelight, shown off, or made to perform 'party pieces' for the applause of others. Modesty also implies a personal and physical shyness and reticence, as opposed to a wish to flaunt themselves for their physical charms. In this day and age, when it seems to be taken for granted that young women wish to walk down the streets of town wearing garments that cover little more than their underwear does, and when everything seems geared up to a lifestyle that encourages females to make themselves as sexually attractive as possible, and to feel failures if they are not turning heads, women who are not like that, and do not wish to be, are regarded by some as being rather odd.
It is an unfortunate sort of discrimination, for in actual fact very large numbers of girls and women are naturally modest, and do not wish to flaunt themselves at all, and feel no sense of distress or loss if they are not arousing male desires or interested glances. Wearing hijab, or becoming a 'covered lady', is one of the odd problems facing girls and women who convert to Islam and who then decide to alter their style of clothing, and/or wear a head-veil. Ironically, genuinely shy and modest women can feel really uneasy and 'forced into the arena of public scrutiny' when they change old habits; putting on hijab can cause people who know you to stare, or wonder why you suddenly think yourself to be 'better' or 'more holy' than them, or to bring out remarks about how well they know what you are really like; or to wonder why you are seeking to 'dress up in fancy dress', or pretending to be an Arab or a Pakistani or whatever. Muslim women who take the further step of covering their faces often face a similar reaction from Muslim women who don't.
This is not something that male Muslims know very much about. There is no equivalent requirement for a man as regards his clothing, or head-covering, or face-covering. I suppose something similar would be for a convert man to feel it was a good thing required by Allah to turn up at the office or go to the garage or factory in an Arab long white dress, and put a bag over his head. Yet there are rules in Islam for male modesty. I have winced in horror on a plane coming home from Damascus in which all the male passengers were Muslims except a couple of western tourists who wore shirts open to the waist (sweat, chest-hair and all), and shorts, and were quite oblivious to (or not bothered by) the reaction of distaste from those all around them. In fact, male Muslims are also expected to dress modestly, in clean clothing that covers them and does not emphasize their sexuality.
Needless to say, it is not only modest clothing that is required, but also modest behavior - not the Dickensian Uriah-Heepish sort of crawling humility, but the genuine desire to do good for no reason other than to please Allah, seeking no reward, or thanks, or public notice. The cover-up clothing of Muslim women is not intended as a punishment or an endurance test, but as a wish to appear graceful and feminine without encouraging any sexual advances. 'Covered ladies' are not necessarily innocent youngsters, virgins about to be sacrificed in marriage, but may be mothers of half a dozen children, perhaps married several times. There is no false modesty intended. But they are giving certain specific messages firstly, that their faith is Islam and they have chosen to submit to the will of God in every aspect of their lives; and secondly, that they wish to be appreciated for their characters and good deeds, and not for whether or not they happen to be pretty or slim or sexy.
Modesty also implies simplicity, and lack of desire for ostentation. A woman could be completely covered, but in some gaudy material, shrieking color, and also dripping with jewellery, gold and pearls. That's one sort of ostentation. Or she might be the only woman in her community who chooses to be head to toe in black - that might well be genuine piety, but it could also be a form of ostentation too. Allah will judge the lady not on her clothes at all, but on her motives, her niyyah, and the quality of her life and what she does with it. Of course, the covered clothing can be quite a sacrifice - notably when the temperature soars and one must find garments in pure cotton, and not wear short sleeves, and if wearing the veil one must remember that a large amount of body-heat escapes through the head, and one can end up feeling quite faint and uncomfortable. There is always a lot of controversy about the extent of a woman's hijab in Islam. Some women cover absolutely everything, others interpret it to mean 'modest dress according to the society in which one lives' and even dispense with the head-veil. Hijab certainly means that a woman should not be showing her cleavage, or wearing a garment that is transparent and reveals her underwear, or one that is tight and clinging. My husband, coming from Pakistan, was horrified to note that old ladies in the UK brazenly went round showing their legs to all and sundry - to him, any skirt above the ankle was a mini-skirt.
The compulsory aspect of hijab to a Muslim woman is modesty - how this is interpreted in clothing styles is not compulsory at all, and is left to the piety and taste of the individual. Modesty and simplicity, and trust in Allah go hand in hand. I had a friend in Jordan a few years ago, a straightforward Muslim man who had asked me to bring him the present of a pair of denim jeans from the UK. When I also gave him a shirt to go with it, he was almost offended. What did I bring him a shirt for? He already had two. He promptly gave one shirt away to someone less fortunate than himself. I will never forget the lesson of his attitude. It was one of my key experiences in bringing me into Islam. I learned another lesson from him, too. A button came off, and I volunteered to sew it on for him. This earned a small rebuke, for it would deprive of employment the poor man down the street who earned his living by such things as sewing on buttons. One cannot help but compare the practice of Islam on that very simple and modest level to the fanaticism and squabbles and outright corruption that has marred the beauty of Islam in more comfortable and affluent surroundings.
Modesty goes hand in hand with value. When men and women are modest, they are in fact valuable people, and without any thought of self-aggrandizement, realize their value. The values of modesty and genuine humility are God-given, and those who possess those characteristics are blessed indeed. Moreover, they are lights shining in the darkness, giving an example of hope and goodness to others. A truly modest person makes the raucous pomposity and arrogance of others show up; a truly simple-living person makes nonsense of the ephemeral wealth-and-status-seeking ambitions of those who do not realize there is more to life than just this level of existence. A truly pure person reveals the tawdriness of lust and lasciviousness and the selfish dangers of unbridled sexuality. May God bless us, and fill our hearts with love and compassion, and direct our lives along a path that will enable us to bring help, hope, serenity, shelter and peace to others, and a means of rescue and healing to those already hurt and damaged by callousness, cruelty and abuse. Amen.
http//www.islamfortoday.com/ruqaiyyah05.htm
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What nonsense. Modesty doesn't make one timid. People can stand out in numerous ways not just body image.
Modesty isn't just about body image, its about not showing off. Trying to prove you are more educated, or more intelligent, more more pious than other people is also immodest. Humility means not saying you are better than other people.
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Of course not. It's just a symbol of humility, which makes it inappropriate when one is trying to get noticed.
