Idribuhunna & Adriba Anhunna-to pull the wool over non Arabic speakers
-
peace guest,
Thanks for evading my question and thus showing the strength of your position. It is irrelevant if Kha-Waw-Fa has several meanings or a billion meanings, what we are interested in is how The Quran uses this word. Can you not find even one out of 120 occurrences to legitimise your position?
The perpetrator thinks they are doing the violation in secret but we know they leave behind evidence.
Not necessarily, this is an insertion on your part.
These are violation other than 246-9 violations. And there are many.
Yet another insertion on your part. Are you forced to say this otherwise your position crumbles?
Perhaps I should have been clearer from the outset, I am basing my discussion on what The Quran actually says, not what it probably says after inserting a few things here and there.
-
Thanks for evading my question and thus showing the strength of your position. It is irrelevant if Kha-Waw-Fa has several meanings or a billion meanings, what we are interested in is how The Quran uses this word. Can you not find even one out of 120 occurrences to legitimise your position?
Peace Wakas,
Did God said something like this " Do you know what Kha-Waw-Fa is?" and then provided the meaning?
-
peace guest,
Did God said something like this " Do you know what Kha-Waw-Fa is?" and then provided the meaning?
The Quran defines how it uses its words, especially if it uses it over 120 times. I have provided a link to every occurrence for you. The evidence for my view is every occurrence of the word. If you have evidence to the contrary, then bring it forth.
-
peace guest,
The Quran defines how it uses its words, especially if it uses it over 120 times. I have provided a link to every occurrence for you. The evidence for my view is every occurrence of the word. If you have evidence to the contrary, then bring it forth.
Peace Wakas,
In this particular case, you can use the word fear with the meaning impending danger = real. That is my view.
-
Peace Wakas,
In this particular case, you can use the word fear with the meaning impending danger = real. That is my view.
the fear of impending danger does not make the danger real, only makes the fear real for the person feeling it, this can be down to many factors such as illnesses causing paranoia.
-
the fear of impending danger does not make the danger real, only makes the fear real for the person feeling it, this can be down to many factors such as illnesses causing paranoia.
Peace Ayisha,
Definition of Fear = a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined
Fear = a distressing emotion aroused by a real threat
or
Fear = a distressing emotion aroused by an imagined threat
In this case, fear = a distressing emotion aroused by a real threat, makes sense. That's my view.
-
So we have deduced that in guest's situation, the wife simply needs to go to court to defend herself against her husband's accusation and the court would declare her innocent, yet the husband can still punish her. In other words, in this case, the legal authority of the court and decision is irrelevant and can be usurped by the husband.
Interesting.
Of course, in this thread I have only pointed out some flaws, there are others, the most glaring being any form of hit/strike going against the rest of AQ's statements/procedures, and the incompatibility of this understanding with 4128-129.
These questions are left for those who uphold this position to resolve and explain away.As Quran434.com explains, all evidence points to one answer and one answer only, and that is "idribu-hunna"="cite/indicate-them".
-
So we have deduced that in guest's situation, the wife simply needs to go to court to defend herself against her husband's accusation and the court would declare her innocent, yet the husband can still punish her. In other words, in this case, the legal authority of the court and decision is irrelevant and can be usurped by the husband.
Interesting.
Of course, in this thread I have only pointed out some flaws, there are others, the most glaring being any form of hit/strike going against the rest of AQ's statements/procedures, and the incompatibility of this understanding with 4128-129.
These questions are left for those who uphold this position to resolve and explain away.As Quran434.com explains, all evidence points to one answer and one answer only, and that is "idribu-hunna"="cite/indicate-them".
Peace Wakas,
The implementation of verse 434 DO NOT require a court, period.
Verse 4128 is talking about good women being mistreated, these women are not performing indecent act. Therefore, there is no contradiction between 434 and 4128.
-
peace guest,
The implementation of verse 434 DO NOT require a court, period.
I never said it did. I simply demonstrated your view's absurdity, by suggesting the women, whom the husband thinks/knows is doing wrong, to take her case to court before she is struck/punished, to which she would be vindicated, but according to you still allowed to be punished by the husband. In other words, if a person knows* of a wrong they can take the matter into their own hands and become judge/jury/executioner, bypassing any islamic/quranic court and requirements of evidence etc thus effectively rendering the entire Quranic judicial system null and void. In other words, nonsense.
*even though 434 says "fear".
You do not get my comparison of 434 and 4128, hence do not see a problem. There is an incompatibility issue, unless you say the women experiencing nushuz from her husband can also punish him in the same way you envisage for 434. This is the only way out of it. Of course this would not resolve the issue of disregarding the Quranic judicial system.
I am amazed The Quran even bothers with requiring 4 witnesses for various crimes, or 2 witnesses over a marriage contract, or debt etc all these stipulations are irrelevant, if a person knows of a wrong they can become judge/jury/executioner and punish as they please................. according to you.
As I said, there is no escaping this contradiction. If you cannot see the problem, that is up to you.
-
Peace Wakas,
I never said it did. I simply demonstrated your view's absurdity, by suggesting the women, whom the husband thinks/knows is doing wrong, to take her case to court before she is struck/punished, to which she would be vindicated, but according to you still allowed to be punished by the husband.
In your court she will be vindicated!!
In a Quranic court believing husband?s right will be recognize per 434.In other words, if a person knows* of a wrong they can take the matter into their own hands and become judge/jury/executioner, bypassing any islamic/quranic court and requirements of evidence etc thus effectively rendering the entire Quranic judicial system null and void. In other words, nonsense.
The believing husband is executing the law of Allah in accordance with the Quran. It is very simple to understand but you don?t get it.
You do not get my comparison of 434 and 4128, hence do not see a problem. There is an incompatibility issue, unless you say the women experiencing nushuz from her husband can also punish him in the same way you envisage for 434. This is the only way out of it. Of course this would not resolve the issue of disregarding the Quranic judicial system.
In 4128 Allah does not allow the women to punish her husband rather provides a different way out.
I am amazed The Quran even bothers with requiring 4 witnesses for various crimes, or 2 witnesses over a marriage contract, or debt etc all these stipulations are irrelevant, if a person knows of a wrong they can become judge/jury/executioner and punish as they please................. according to you.
It seems you are implying that believer should not be trusted. I disagree with your implication.
-
peace guest,
In your court she will be vindicated!!
In a Quranic court believing husband?s right will be recognize per 434.Interesting, it seems you are implying this is an exception to the rule, in terms of Quranic judicial process and evidence requirements, so let us see with an example, to test your position...
You previously said 246-9 refers to other stuff, not 434 stuff, and even though this is a baseless interpretation on your part, let's stick with it for sake of argument. Let's also stick with your strange use of "fear".
Test Example
Husband has a real fear, or lets say he is sure, that his wife is taking cocaine, so he goes through the steps in 434 and she is not responding, so just before he is about to hit her she says "you have no right to punish me without evidence, I will take this case to court". Now, tell us what happens after this, e.g. what this islamic/quranic court would do... and if you feel there are multiple options, feel free to list them.In 4128 Allah does not allow the women to punish her husband rather provides a different way out.
We can also test your position another way. Simply tell us EXACTLY what you think the procedure is in 4128-130 for the wife who feared nushuz. Then we can see if it is compatible with Quran or not.
It seems you are implying that believer should not be trusted.
Interesting. So tell us guest, let's say we can trust a believer what does that mean they can do? Are you implying they can do as they please as a believer would never lie or be unjust thus all their actions are allowed, they dont need to prove it etc? Then once you answer that, also tell us how we determine who is a true believer and who is not? Thanks.
-
Peace Wakas,
Test Example
Husband has a real fear, or lets say he is sure, that his wife is taking cocaine, so he goes through the steps in 434 and she is not responding, so just before he is about to hit her she says "you have no right to punish me without evidence, I will take this case to court". Now, tell us what happens after this, e.g. what this islamic/quranic court would do... and if you feel there are multiple options, feel free to list them.Your statements ??..lets say he is sure?.? contradicts ??you have no right to punish me without evidence?.?
Interesting. So tell us guest, let's say we can trust a believer what does that mean they can do?
They comply with Allah?s law/order.
Are you implying they can do as they please as a believer would never lie or be unjust thus all their actions are allowed, they dont need to prove it etc?
They don?t do as they please; they only follow Allah?s order.
Then once you answer that, also tell us how we determine who is a true believer and who is not? Thanks.
Compliance with Allah?s law/order = Believer
Non-compliant with Allah?s law/order = Not a believer
Allah knows who is a believer.
We don?t have to determine if person is a believer or not. The person knows if he is believer or not. If he is a believer then he can impose Allah?s law. If he is not a believer he cannot impose Allah?s law i.e. he cannot hit the women. But we know bad people will do bad things. Please do not equate the action of bad people to a believer.
-
peace guest,
Your statements ??..lets say he is sure?.? contradicts ??you have no right to punish me without evidence?.?
A person can be sure yet have no evidence, people think like this all the time. In any case, let me rephrase so you dont evade again The wife says "you have no right to punish me as I do not accept your evidence (if you have any), I will take this case to court". Tell us, what happens next...
And why do you evade answering my question
Simply tell us EXACTLY what you think the procedure is in 4128-130 for the wife who feared nushuz. Then we can see if it is compatible with Quran or not.
Allah knows who is a believer.
We don?t have to determine if person is a believer or not. The person knows if he is believer or not. If he is a believer then he can impose Allah?s law. If he is not a believer he cannot impose Allah?s law i.e. he cannot hit the women. But we know bad people will do bad things. Please do not equate the action of bad people to a believer.
Exactly, Allah knows who is a believer, we do not know for certain.
Most of those who think they believe in God are actually idolaters
So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass by them, heedlessly! The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship. (12106)Some of those who think they are guided/believers are not
Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of GOD, yet they believe that they are guided. (730)
On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?" Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers." Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them. (622-24)We are trying to determine what is Allah's law, so dont evade, and just answer.
-
Peace Wakas,
A person can be sure yet have no evidence, people think like this all the time. In any case, let me rephrase so you dont evade again The wife says "you have no right to punish me as I do not accept your evidence (if you have any), I will take this case to court". Tell us, what happens next...
Her acceptance of evidence is irrelevant. She is guilty in the eyes of her husband. Thus she is punished. This is Allah?s law.
If she takes the case to Quranic court, the court will side with the husband and charge is dismissed.
And why do you evade answering my question
Quote
Simply tell us EXACTLY what you think the procedure is in 4128-130 for the wife who feared nushuz. Then we can see if it is compatible with Quran or not.Resolve the problem or part.
Quote
Most of those who think they believe in God are actually idolaters
So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass by them, heedlessly! The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship. (12106)Some of those who think they are guided/believers are not
Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of GOD, yet they believe that they are guided. (730)
On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?" Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers." Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them. (622-24)We are trying to determine what is Allah's law, so dont evade, and just answer.
These people are falsely claiming to be a believer. They ignore the proof provided by Allah. They are not believer. Thus they are irrelevant to this discussion.
-
peace guest,
Her acceptance of evidence is irrelevant. She is guilty in the eyes of her husband. Thus she is punished. This is Allah?s law.
If she takes the case to Quranic court, the court will side with the husband and charge is dismissed.Finally! This is what I wanted you to admit. Essentially in your view "whatever husband says goes", e.g. if he says guilty, then she is, regardless of evidence. This is completely unheard of in The Quran, thus we will assume this is an exception to the rule, unless you can prove otherwise. Further, in the case of 246-9 The Quran clearly states whatever husband accuses wife of can be refuted by the wife simply by her testimony, so we will have to assume, in your view, Quran suspends this in 434 giving no logical reason as to why. In addition, husband can punish and we have to take the husband's word for it that he did it in a just way. Punishment with no oversight/limit is unheard of in The Quran.
Thus, your view is complete nonsense to anyone who requires no variance in Quran . This is what I wanted to demonstrate, i.e. holding such a view for 434 requires it to be an exception to the rule. Point proven.As a side note, it's blatantly clear you have not read Quran434.com
Now lets move onto the next testing of your view...
Resolve the problem or part.
So lets say they do not resolve the problem, and she is left as one hanging/stuck, as implied by 4129. Tell us, what is the next step?
These people are falsely claiming to be a believer. They ignore the proof provided by Allah. They are not believer. Thus they are irrelevant to this discussion.
They are not believers, exactly, but they think they are. So tell us guest, which of these is the true believer, or both are, or both are not
Jim "I am a believer."
Bob "I am a believer."Tell us.
In case you do not get my point, my point is simple, it is impossible to take someone's word for it that they are a believer hence can be trusted. No judicial system in the entire world is built on such blind trust, it requires evidence and law/procedure, exactly like The Quran. Thus, whatever husband says in 434 is irrelevant no matter how much of a believer he thinks he is, as we have no way of telling. The Quran does not have us rely on blind trust when it comes to justice!
-
Thus, ironically, Traditional Muslims who uphold hit/beat actually not only go against The Quran, but some of the biggest "scholars" in Traditional Islam.
They also go against the prophet's example, which they always claim to be following. Not a single incident where the prophet has hit one of his wives has ever been recorded. But there are various hadith in Bukhari (and others) describing an incident where the prophet had been arguing / fighting with his wifes and was so upset that he actually left the house and stayed away for several weeks.
Also
... One day Umar was having an argument with his wife and waited as usual for her to accept his shouting with bowed head, according to the custom of Quraysh. But she did nothing of the sort "As I was railing at my wife, she answered me in the same tone of voice. Responding to my reproaches for her acting like that, she said 'You reproach me for answering you. Well, by God, the wives of the Prophet answer him, and one of them ran away from him until nightfall.'"
(Bukhari, Sahih, vol. 3, p. 258, French trans. by Houdas, p. 587)
-
peace Leyna,
In hadith it is recorded he struck Aisha, however it is explained away as not a hit but a push. In any case, reference is given at Quran434.com
-
peace guest,
Finally! This is what I wanted you to admit. Essentially in your view "whatever husband says goes", e.g. if he says guilty, then she is, regardless of evidence. This is completely unheard of in The Quran, thus we will assume this is an exception to the rule, unless you can prove otherwise. Further, in the case of 246-9 The Quran clearly states whatever husband accuses wife of can be refuted by the wife simply by her testimony, so we will have to assume, in your view, Quran suspends this in 434 giving no logical reason as to why. In addition, husband can punish and we have to take the husband's word for it that he did it in a just way. Punishment with no oversight/limit is unheard of in The Quran.
Thus, your view is complete nonsense to anyone who requires no variance in Quran . This is what I wanted to demonstrate, i.e. holding such a view for 434 requires it to be an exception to the rule. Point proven.As a side note, it's blatantly clear you have not read Quran434.com
Now lets move onto the next testing of your view...
So lets say they do not resolve the problem, and she is left as one hanging/stuck, as implied by 4129. Tell us, what is the next step?
They are not believers, exactly, but they think they are. So tell us guest, which of these is the true believer, or both are, or both are not
Jim "I am a believer."
Bob "I am a believer."Tell us.
In case you do not get my point, my point is simple, it is impossible to take someone's word for it that they are a believer hence can be trusted. No judicial system in the entire world is built on such blind trust, it requires evidence and law/procedure, exactly like The Quran. Thus, whatever husband says in 434 is irrelevant no matter how much of a believer he thinks he is, as we have no way of telling. The Quran does not have us rely on blind trust when it comes to justice!
Peace Wakas,
My point is simple as well. If she is guilty but honest then she knows the punishment is appropriate and she need to reform or leave the husband or be divorced by the husband. She does not go to a court.
If she is not guilty then she knows her husband is not a believer and should take appropriate action. In this case the husband do not have evidence. The husband is a liar and he is easily convicted.
If she is a liar then the husband gets rid of her via divorce. The husband has the evidence to convict her in a court.
-
peace guest,
guilty AND honest? Interesting. Wife guilty and not responding magically does the right thing reforms or leaves husband!
knows the punishment is appropriate? Interesting. Is it her own made-up sliding scale of appropriate punishments based on what she did? cocaine gets a slap, marijuana gets a pinch etc etc? what if husband disagrees with this sliding scale?
Ooh, she knows her husband is not a believer? God-like certainty? Interesting. What action does she take then? husband is easily convicted? really, based on what, her say so? Oh my, a complete reversal!
she is a liar and he divorces her, thus having to compensate her even though he did nothing wrong, as per Quranic rules? oh but only if he has the evidence, boy he is stuck if he had perishable evidence, e.g. caught her with cocaine but she swiftly flushed it.... tell us, what does he do then? is he stuck?By the way I do not expect, nor do I wish you to answer the above questions.
Let me be blunt, your view is filled with so many insertions, problems, impracticality, contradictions it is untenable, but it's ok, we are about to disprove it yet another way... please answer the question and dont evade
Re 4128-130
Resolve the problem or part.
So lets say they do not resolve the problem, and she is left as one hanging/stuck, as implied by 4129. Tell us, what is the next step?
Bear in mind, you said (underline, my emphasis)
If she is guilty but honest then she knows the punishment is appropriate and she need to reform or leave the husband or be divorced by the husband. She does not go to a court. -
Let me be blunt, your view is filled with so many insertions, problems, impracticality, contradictions it is untenable, but it's ok, we are about to disprove it yet another way... please answer the question and dont evade
Re 4128-130
Bear in mind, you said (underline, my emphasis)
If she is guilty but honest then she knows the punishment is appropriate and she need to reform or leave the husband or be divorced by the husband. She does not go to a court.Peace Wakas,
The discussion is on 434 and not on 4129 You are trying to create a relationship between 434 and 4129 where there is none.
Verse 434 addresses a different issue than verse 4129. Therefore, your question is invalid.
