Is gender-mixed salat in the Mosque forbidden in The Quran?
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My Dream Mosque Equality at Last
I was exchanging messages with my friend R the other day over our concerns about men running our Mosque boards, councils, finances and Sunday school programs, and the lack of female representation in the 'big picture' decisions. We decided that change was almost impossible so we came up with this brilliant idea why not create our own mosque from scratch?
Our Mosque however will be nontraditional. Men won't be the sole decision makers. Women will have equal access and say on all matters concerning everyone.
Mosque Layout
Main Prayer Space Our first order of business will be to reconstruct the layout of the mosque. The main prayer hall will encompass both men and women. They will be able to visibly see the Imam and participate during the congregation in the same space as the Imam. There will be an overflow space available (first come, first serve) which will serve both genders (which will be equipped with screens that transmit the sermon and prayer services). In addition, the prayer hall will be high tech, equipped with screens for audio and video presentations.
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Women would pray on one side, and men another side with a fair distance in between. I spoke to Hijabman (hijabman.com) about distance issues and he mentioned a knee barrier in between. I don't see a reason why women must be behind men (I am sick of staring at men's boxers!). Side by side works better to keep modesty and equal distance from the Imam. I would like to pray in the first few lines for a change.
This is too 'traditional' for me... nothing new...
Why not let the women be in front? I don't mind seeing women but... erghh.. 'boxers'...
Why not put the Imam in Center Stage, and the ummah encircling him or her..(or neither him or her) and the ummah can interrupt the imam anytime for questions or 'corrections'.
Or why not give an X shaped stage in the center, as thus the Imam can 'run' from side to side while yelli.. erghhh preaching...Salam / Peace
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This is too 'traditional' for me... nothing new...
Why not let the women be in front? I don't mind seeing women but... erghh.. 'boxers'...
Why not put the Imam in Center Stage, and the ummah encircling him or her..(or neither him or her) and the ummah can interrupt the imam anytime for questions or 'corrections'.
Or why not give an X shaped stage in the center, as thus the Imam can 'run' from side to side while yelli.. erghhh preaching......scorching your ears sometimes, yeah, i know yes which points to... what's matter more? the mixed gender issue or the whole method of Salat & masjid itself?
Do you guys think the current "preaching" and centralized "prayer" mode is already working effectively? Participation is quite lacking. I read a joke here on fm yesterday Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car. The same can easily be observed in the nearest traditional mosques today.
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i'm lost.
Yes, I know. This is what happens when you make a flippant remark, it leads to confusion.
Mushu So what are we suggesting here? That when I go to the mosque I should be able to stand in-between two sisters when praying (and vice versa)?
The question here is to what extent of free-mixing in the masjids are we proposing? The scenario presented above is my take on what would happen if we suggest that there should be no limitations, as no such limits are mentioned in the Qur'an. This should have opened the door for someone to pick up where I left of and elucidate whether they agree that the level of free-mixing I'm suggesting might happen is acceptable or not. However, what we got was a flippant remark from you
san why are you trying to stand in between two sisters? sounds fishy...
This might have been funny, except you went and got confused with my response. The insinuation here is that I would go and deliberately stand in-between two sisters if I was given the chance. That something is amiss if a guy ends up surrounded by sisters. So I suggested that it could in fact be the sisters who deliberately wanted to stand next to me (given that I am a desirable young man).
Mushu How do you know it isn't the two sisters surrounding me, eh?
This should have made you reflect on the fact that attraction between men and women is a two-way street. That there is not just a possibility that men would want to have the company of women in the masjid, but women may want the same.
san Nonsensical response (maybe start up a conversation? or you could judge by the look on their face)
So we ended up with this pointless response from you.
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Sorry, bro ;D i meant no offense
that was an interesting case-study nonetheless, and you summed it up perfectly.
What i was trying to point out (too obscure a point maybe, sorry for that), however, is that maybe the gender issue is not the main problem, but rather what we are going to do in the masjid is what is more important. See for example, in college, mixed groups of students exchanging ideas, does the gender issue matter so much, or is it their "exchanging ideas" that makes the essence of their action (i.e. studying)?
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why is it that when mixed gender in the mosque is discussed, which is NOT forbidden in Quran, that MEN invariably think of sex? Surely the place of prayer is for prayer and thinking only of God and one's connection with God, not what the woman in front, behind or next to you is wearing or what you would like to do with her!
Men please get your mind out of the gutter and back on the connection you are supposed to be making with your creator. Remember also you were told to lower your gaze, as in do NOT be looking, keep your mind on God and it shouldnt matter if 10 women are dancing naked in front of you! The LAST thing I think about in a mosque is chatting up a man or anything to do with a man, my mind is on God and only God.
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why is it that when mixed gender in the mosque is discussed, which is NOT forbidden in Quran, that MEN invariably think of sex? Surely the place of prayer is for prayer and thinking only of God and one's connection with God, not what the woman in front, behind or next to you is wearing or what you would like to do with her!
Men please get your mind out of the gutter and back on the connection you are supposed to be making with your creator.
Exactly--you put it better than i tried to. Why the push on gender issue then? Can we get back on discussing how best to perform Salat in congregation, or is this the wrong thread for that?
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why is it that when mixed gender in the mosque is discussed, which is NOT forbidden in Quran, that some MEN invariably think of sex? Surely the place of prayer is for prayer and thinking only of God and one's connection with God, not what the woman in front, behind or next to you is wearing or what you would like to do with her!
Men please get your mind out of the gutter and back on the connection you are supposed to be making with your creator. Remember also you were told to lower your gaze, as in do NOT be looking, keep your mind on God and it shouldnt matter if 10 women are dancing naked in front of you! The LAST thing I think about in a mosque is chatting up a man or anything to do with a man, my mind is on God and only God.
I just want to make clear that here I do NOT mean ALL men are this way, just a certain few who find it hard to get their minds off womens bodies when they should be connecting with God and not thinking of sex and covering a woman up so THEY dont get distracted. Certainly not ALL men are this way.
Sorry if this was misunderstood peace
edited ;D
back to cleaning, cant get in trouble that way )
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why is it that when mixed gender in the mosque is discussed, which is NOT forbidden in Quran, that MEN invariably think of sex? Surely the place of prayer is for prayer and thinking only of God and one's connection with God, not what the woman in front, behind or next to you is wearing or what you would like to do with her!
Are you suggesting women have no desires for men?
Men please get your mind out of the gutter and back on the connection you are supposed to be making with your creator. Remember also you were told to lower your gaze, as in do NOT be looking, keep your mind on God and it shouldnt matter if 10 women are dancing naked in front of you! The LAST thing I think about in a mosque is chatting up a man or anything to do with a man, my mind is on God and only God.
What you seem to be missing is the obvious chemistry between men and women. Where you have lots of men and women mixing freely, you unavoidably get some form of courting or flirting from both sides. That's normal and natural. Happens at work, happens at college, happens in clubs. The question is, do you want that in the masjid?
So I'm not sure why men are the bad guys in this conversation.
As mentioned earlier, it is firmly established by the Qur'an and hadith that women have a right to access the mosque. I'm asking people here what level of free-mixing are they calling for? The OP made an interesting observation that during day-to-day activities there is much free-mixing which doesn't seem to distract anyone, so why would it be so in the masjid? Well, my contention is that any woman standing next to me will be distracted. Not a boast, just the way it is...
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AK85
I am neither a woman nor too old, you need to learn how to control yourself
We are not talking about fancy theories here, but practically it is impossible to stop your mind when you see a beautiful Women, or a Women sees a handsome Man, to raom around. Unless you are sexual desires have died.
This is also pointed out by MUSHU and this is just natrual.Ayisha Oh Ayisha
Adorned for the people are the worldly pleasures, such as the women, having children, piles upon piles of gold and silver, trained horses, livestock, and crops. These are the materials of this world. A far better abode is reserved at Allah.
Quran -
it is impossible to stop your mind when you see a beautiful Women, or a Women sees a handsome Man, to raom around. Unless you are sexual desires have died.
What happens if I go to a place of prayer and see a handsome man? I'll be thinking "oh, that's a handsome guy". End of story. I'm not going to indulge in sexual fantasies about this guy or keep staring at him instead of praying, or thinking of ways I could approach him afterwards.
There's a time and place for everything. Really, I don't get why people love to blow the issue of attraction between males and females out of proportion. Sorry, but this is just ridiculous.
If you, Raaajah, have a problem with controlling your mind whenever you see a pretty woman and fear that she'll distract you from your prayers, then that is your problem alone, and you should simply stay away from the mosque, instead of trying to ban women from it.
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If you, Raaajah, have a problem with controlling your mind whenever you see a pretty woman and fear that she'll distract you from your prayers, then that is your problem alone, and you should simply stay away from the mosque, instead of trying to ban women from it
No, that is not my problem alone, some would admitt and some would not, that is the problem.
Secondly HOW could i ban some thing Allah has allowed? You are just assuming.
What I am against is mix gender Salaat, initiated by Asra Nomani type of women. -
Are you suggesting women have no desires for men?
What you seem to be missing is the obvious chemistry between men and women. Where you have lots of men and women mixing freely, you unavoidably get some form of courting or flirting from both sides. That's normal and natural. Happens at work, happens at college, happens in clubs. The question is, do you want that in the masjid?
Of course women have desires for men and yes it happens at college clubs etc, but Mosque and prayer time is not a college or a club, I just that I cannot invisage having those desires IN the mosque.So I'm not sure why men are the bad guys in this conversation.
As mentioned earlier, it is firmly established by the Qur'an and hadith that women have a right to access the mosque. I'm asking people here what level of free-mixing are they calling for? The OP made an interesting observation that during day-to-day activities there is much free-mixing which doesn't seem to distract anyone, so why would it be so in the masjid? Well, my contention is that any woman standing next to me will be distracted. Not a boast, just the way it is...
That is a boast and I can assure you I certainly would not be distracted by your presence next to me in a Mosque, for me this is a place of worship and prayer, you or whoever was next to me would not enter into that in any way, even if you were an Enrique lookalike.
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That is a boast and I can assure you I certainly would not be distracted by your presence next to me in a Mosque, for me this is a place of worship and prayer, you or whoever was next to me would not enter into that in any way, even if you were an Enrique lookalike.
i think you are in late Forties
San
Yes, it can be hard for a young person to control his/her sexual desires...
That is the point.
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San
Yes, it can be hard for a young person to control his/her sexual desires.
That is the point.
Ah, but that's not my point. If somehow you missed the rest of my post
And just because...
doesn't mean you can't control yourself. Someone mentioned a good point about "spiritual therapy" earlier.
Nothing to be ashamed though, your mind only picked up whatever you let it pick up.
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Of course women have desires for men and yes it happens at college clubs etc, but Mosque and prayer time is not a college or a club, I just that I cannot invisage having those desires IN the mosque.
What you can and cannot envisage has nothing to do with what rules we should have in a mosque. People tend not to go to college to find a mate, in many instances they pay huge sums of money to come out with a qualification. But the level of free-mixing means that "mating" happens. You have no basis for saying this wouldn't happen in the mosque, other than "that wouldn't happen to me". Human beings don't become cyborgs when they walk into a masjid. Their disposition remains the same, and so do their desires.
That is a boast and I can assure you I certainly would not be distracted by your presence next to me in a Mosque, for me this is a place of worship and prayer, you or whoever was next to me would not enter into that in any way, even if you were an Enrique lookalike.
Enrique's got nothing on me O0
The point being, how many women would not be distracted by standing next to an Enrique or a Justin (or me!)? They may very well go in with the intention of praying, but seeing an attractive man who is friendly and speaks to her in an appealing way would have an effect on her, no?
By allowing this level of free-mixing, are you not damaging the salat of those with weaker iman, and those who are easily distracted?
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What you can and cannot envisage has nothing to do with what rules we should have in a mosque. People tend not to go to college to find a mate, in many instances they pay huge sums of money to come out with a qualification. But the level of free-mixing means that "mating" happens. You have no basis for saying this wouldn't happen in the mosque, other than "that wouldn't happen to me". Human beings don't become cyborgs when they walk into a masjid. Their disposition remains the same, and so do their desires.
You cannot compare going to college with going to Mosque, its a totally different thing FOR a totally different thing. You speak of rules that SHOULD be in a Mosque and I am speaking of behaviour that SHOULD be in a Mosque which you dont seem to think the majority of male members can behave correctly, so they shouldnt BE there. Mosque is for prayer and worship to God which EVERYONE despite their gender should be able to do IN the mosque. If some males have issues and cannot control themselves properly then they should leave and pray at home.
As for 'free mixing' we are not talking about a party, we are talking about praying to God, your minds should be on God. If you have desires you should correct them and remember where you are and the purpose of being there, that does not mean become a robot, it means correct your concentration. No their 'desires' should not remain the same for that time they are in there either, would you have sex IN the Mosque? I should hope not, so you shouldnt be thinking about it in the mosque either.
A get together, a party or a college environment is not a Mosque, we are discussing worshipping GOD here and whether mixed gender salat is forbidden in Quran, its not, God expects you and me to contain ourselves and not turn into animals while in His House. If you cannot remember that or cannot do that then you have no right to be there as a believer.
Enrique's got nothing on me O0
The point being, how many women would not be distracted by standing next to an Enrique or a Justin (or me!)? They may very well go in with the intention of praying, but seeing an attractive man who is friendly and speaks to her in an appealing way would have an effect on her, no?
No. For one thing this Enrique lookalike should not be speaking to her in an appealing way and should be lowering his gaze and preparing for prayer. If he speaks to her and she responds then go outside and do whatever, the Mosque is not the place for that, you should be able to keep your mind on prayer and worship and not let it wonder. My husband is a million times more dishy and sexy than Enrique but when we pray our mind is on God and nothing else.By allowing this level of free-mixing, are you not damaging the salat of those with weaker iman, and those who are easily distracted?
Allowing this level of free mixing is not the issue. If women were on one side of the Mosque and men on another, which even Coptic Churches do, is not woman beside man. The issue is whether mixed gender salat is forbidden in Quran and its not so there IS a way round the problem of those who cannot control their desires by segregation INSIDE the Mosque, but both men and women will be IN the Mosque and able to see the Imam and take part IN the Mosque prayer and worship. Many Mosques in some parts of the world already forbid women to enter at all, which is wrong, and its men that cannot control themselves at the mere sight of a woman that has caused this problem just as its they that feel women should be in head to toe tents to help them with their desires. Its time the men started correcting themselves and realized there is a time and place for everything and the Mosque is the time and place for prayer and worship of our Creator and not thinking of doing a bit of adding to creation themselves.
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Many Mosques in some parts of the world already forbid women to enter at all, which is wrong
Exactly.
I was just asking around whether there is a mosque in my part of town that welcomes women for Friday prayer without sending them to tiny, dirty premises, and was told there might be one! Given the fact that there are literally dozens of mosque here, that's a shame and a disgrace.
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