Quran in need of hadith?
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Alen
Thanks but for the purpose of this thread, those verses aren?t necessaryPeace
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.The verses I quoted tell sunnis that Qur'an is not in need of any other hadeeth, sicne it is The Best Hadeeth (3923),
God knows best.Peace.
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Salaam
I see it just as clear as you and everyone here that there is no doubt wether to use Hadiths or not, but for our mislead brothers and sisters out there it is not so easy. We can show them hard evidence what it says in the Quran, but they don't believe us, we can show them the faults in their science of Hadiths, but they don't believe us. It's like brickwall, right?
I think Sarah Y makes a really good point. What do "they" use to prove to us that we are wrong? Well, for one thing, they say "How can you interpret this and that verse without Hadith?". I have certainly been confronted like that, and I must tell you, sometimes I stumble. To meet this kind of confrontation we do not need evidence that Hadiths are a bad source of information. Instead, we need to show that it is possible to NOT use Hadith.... I really really welcome this kind of forum where we can talk about the meaning of tricky verses instead of proving over and over again that Hadiths are no good.
Anyone dare?
Sarah Y, you asked the question, what do you think?
Wakas, you seem to be a pretty smart guy. Instead of writing that verses 944 and 2258 are self-explanatory to you, why don't you tell us instead why they are? -
Emil
This verse has been a great help in such discussionsQuran 37 Shakir
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. -
Hej Captain
Yeah, really excellent verse, that one, use it many ways to explain how I can interpret more "freely" than those who are bound to Hadith.
But sometimes I get in a pickle, let me play the devil's advocate here for a minute
Verse 434 Men are overseers over women, by reason of that wherewith Allah hath made one of them excel over anot her, and by reason of that which they expend of their substance. Wherefore righteous women are obedient, and are watchers in husbands absence by the aid and protection of Allah. And those wives whose refractoriness ye fear, exhort them, and avoid them in beds, and beat them; but if they obey you, seek not a way against them; verily Allah is ever Lofty, Grand.
How can you interpret this verse into something that does NOT allow me to beat the crap out of my wife? I can surely read in numerous Hadith that Mohammed forbade beating of ones wife....so because I have been given guidance in Hadith I know that this verse does not mean I can physically beat my woman.
Captain, you see what I mean? Sometimes it is difficult to stand your ground. I can recite verses from the Quran that says Hadiths are no good and that all are not to be taken literally until I turn blue....A sunni or shia brother would not believe a word I say until I can prove by actually interpreting a verse into something that makes sense, AND doing that by staying well clear of Hadith.
That's why I think this forum is pretty darn interesting, let's give us tools so we can beat "them" at their own game. Cap, what you think of 944 and 2258? You got any others you are pondering over?
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Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.For me, The Qur'an is clear, perfect, fully detailed and direct and Thank God I am following it and Thank God I understand it.
There are some verses that sometimes I don't understand but that is why I ask God to extend my knowledge and not to
give me directions to the enarest imam/scholar.Glory be to God.
Peace be upon you. -
Peace,
Emil, I see your point. Regarding 434, I want you to read this website. This verse is a perfect example of an allegorical verse. )
I don't see anything wrong with 2258, though
Hast thou not Turned thy vision to one who disputed with Abraham About his Lord, because Allah had granted himpower? Abraham said "My Lord is He Who Giveth life and death." He said "I give life and death". Said Abraham "But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the east Do thou then cause him to rise from the West." Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth Allah Give guidance to a people unjust.This verse merely states that the Sun rises east by God's will, and that no one can make it rise from the west in order to prove their divinity.
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Peace all
Some people (particularly mainstream muslims) believe verses in the Quran need hadith for explanation. So this thread aims to challenge the thought. Share the verses and see if we can find the meaning to it.
Hah! it is actually the Hadith that critically need "Sanity Check" for Expulsion!
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Peace all
Emil
Thanks for the thoughts in regards to 944I think 944 is about those who believe in God and are true won?t need to ask for exemption they will just do and trust in God with their wealth and selves.
Actually, i was just looking at the book and they misquoted the verse. the verse they mention is actually 940 but they had written 944 pretty bad editing. So anyway traditional argument is the companion is unknown but hadith verified who it is.. though as Wakas pointed out such information isn?t important same with who disputed with Ibrahim in 2258
2258 is about a dispute and what you said could be an interpretation. Though it seems that Ibrahim challenged this person and that person bahat ?fabahat? which is
Ba-ha-Ta = confound/confuse/dumbfound, unable to see their right course, become affected with wonder, cut short, overcome, took by surprise, caught unaware suddenly, calumny, slander, false accusation.
So he got challenged. Captain Awesome (CA) also makes a valid point which is similar to yours.
In regards to 434 read the link CA gave you. it takes time to digest so take your time with it.
Alen
Thanks but i?m not sunni and last time i checked most people here aren?t either. True, Quran is detailed and has the necessary information, it doesn?t stop me from my own shortcomings of lack of comprehension/understanding hence the questioning/learning. And sure of course, we shall always seek the guidance of Godpeople make comments like as if it?s a walk in a park to understand Quran. Maybe for others it is hence the questioning to get the thoughts out.
Something might have great detail but how well do you understand the detail is something totally different
Jafar
That?s fine if you think so but i wanna focus on understanding Quran not hadith.But by all means challenge the hadith theories/content just don?t be surprised if you actually find hadiths you like.
This thread is more about a challenge for us or yourself to understand quran. I don?t think hadith will make it all clear but it doesn?t mean we should just leave things unattended with the assumption its all clear in understanding.
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@Sarah Is it just me or are you starting to sound like a wise(r) person?
"How can you interpret this and that verse without Hadith?"
i refrained from this comment yesterday, but now i think it's still valid "How can you interpret this and that (anything) without your mind and your senses?"
I can recite verses from the Quran that says Hadiths are no good and that all are not to be taken literally until I turn blue....A sunni or shia brother would not believe a word I say until I can prove by actually interpreting a verse into something that makes sense, AND doing that by staying well clear of Hadith.
That's why I think this forum is pretty darn interesting, let's give us tools so we can beat "them" at their own game.
Dear Emil, why try to beat them? Forgive me for trying to read deeper into your posts, but it seems to me that you are really concerned about winning a discussion or an argument against Hadith believers, is this true? Or are you concerned about their choice/possibility to embrace AlQuran, without relying on hadith?
________________________anyway,
Back to 2258 and 940 (instead of 944, right?).
Note out of quran.com, i take Dr Ghali's translation since to me, he seemed to try to give the most literal translation. I might do just as well with M. Asad's translation. Content in parentheses removed for better flow.2258
"Have you not regarded him who argued with Ibrahim about his Lord, that Allah had brought him the kingship? As' Ibrahim said, "My Lord is He Who gives life and makes to die, " he said, "I give life and make to die." Ibrahim said, "Yet surely Allah comes up with the sun from the East, so come up with it from the West." Then the one who disbelieved was confounded; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.940
In case ever you do not vindicate him, yet Allah readily vindicated him, as the ones who disbelieved drove him out the second of two, as the two were in the cavern, as he said to his companion, "Grieve not; surely Allah is with us. "Then Allah sent down His serenity on him and aided him with hosts you did not see; and He made the word of the ones who disbelieved the basest; and the Word of Allah is that is The Uppermost; and Allah is Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise..I don't know exactly the detail of the context (the name of the actors, the precise name/location of the place, and the precise timing of the event, etc). However the most important thing here, imo, is the situation and the interaction that is happening between the actors, and we're given enough information of the context as well right in the verse to understand the situation.
In the verse 940, the situation pictured is, imo, a "helpless" one, these two people were "driven out/expelled", and then they were in a "cave/cavern". The rest i would leave it to your own mind but let's focus on "Grieve not; surely Allah is with us", "serenity/tranquility/peace", "aided/strengthened with hosts/forces you did not see". Now, did your mind lead you to the mystery behind what had actually happened there, on that specific event? But it's said clearly, "hosts/forces you did not see". Now if you were to take a lesson from this verse, which one would you take
A) Keep asking on 'What are exactly those "hosts/forces you did not see"?', or
B) (that) In the most helpless situation, it is best to think and be sure that "Allah is with us" (which gives us the certainty and the serenity/tranquility needed for such difficult situation), and that there is a way which we could only "find/see" when we are in "serenity/tranquility" (i.e. able to think/sense/observe with calm, clear mind).
A magical mystery tour, or a precious lesson for anyone who would rather think and sense? To each their own. Doesn't mean that i reject anything that sounds miraculous, because often we just have no idea of the "how", but my instinct says, waiting passively for a miracle to happen might lead you to a-not-so-satisfying death in such difficult situation. Just beware with that kind of idea. I think it's better to ground yourself on the active side, if you get the gist.
Similarly with 2258, the situation and interaction (in this case, argument) is again muach muach more important, more essential than the details of the context. The first argument about "giving life" and "making death"--anyone, anyone foul enough since the age of Ibrahim until the end of time could respond the same way he did. Remember we're not talking about the correctness of his counter-argument, since it's useless anyway (as made explicit in "...and Allah does not guide the unjust people". Contrast that to the second argument. Who on earth has been able to counter-argue that one? How about in the next 100 years, 1000 years, and so on--will there ever be a human to counter-argue it?
I hope this adds to the discussion. Peace
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@Sarah Is it just me or are you starting to sound like a wise(r) person?
i refrained from this comment yesterday, but now i think it's still valid "How can you interpret this and that (anything) without your mind and your senses?"
Dear Emil, why try to beat them? Forgive me for trying to read deeper into your posts, but it seems to me that you are really concerned about winning a discussion or an argument against Hadith believers, is this true? Or are you concerned about their choice/possibility to embrace AlQuran, without relying on hadith?
Hello San
You are right, I was a not careful with my choice of words. I am not trying to beat them. But I do need "ammo" when they try to beat me. I live in place where everybody knows everyone, and since I do not "look" exactly like most of my islam brothers (I am blond and blue eyes while most other muslims around me are from Middle East or Africa) I stand out pretty much, everyone knows "the blond guy who is married to one of our sisters".....so I cannot "fly under the radar" so to speak and therefore I am challenged and attacked by my brothers constantly....I guess they don't like that I am a "bad influence" on my wife....Sad to say, it has not only been verbal challenges.....I would do anything to be left alone. I know some brothers who believe in the quran only, but they are too scared to admit it in public. They are right, the brothers would not be as forgiving as they are towards me. With me at least they can blame it on "being a convert, he does not understand".
That is why this forum and others are very important, I am pretty alone at the moment, need help.....
Well, I am way offtopic
Your interpretations of 2258 and 940 are goood sun and I agree, Sarah is a wise person, read some of her other forums and I think she's cool.
Peace out.
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Alen
Thanks but i?m not sunni and last time i checked most people here aren?t either. True, Quran is detailed and has the necessary information, it doesn?t stop me from my own shortcomings of lack of comprehension/understanding hence the questioning/learning. And sure of course, we shall always seek the guidance of Godpeople make comments like as if it?s a walk in a park to understand Quran. Maybe for others it is hence the questioning to get the thoughts out.
Something might have great detail but how well do you understand the detail is something totally different
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.I wasn't suggesting nor saying you are, I just quoted those verses as a "weapon" against sunnis.
Glory be to God.Peace be upon you.