Don't lose the big picture!
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It was taken from this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0In which I also pointed out the flaws in the above
peace abdu,
Thanks for your analysis, however it has its problems, two points
You bring up the man being in fear issue and apply it to 2238 before it is mentioned in 2239. Note the conjunctive "fa" (so/then).
Your explanation of 2239 does not fit as it is about remembering God, not a past wife etc, making it an insertion/extrapolation.Abdu did not reply.
But I agree with the gist of your message, i.e. context and overall message/concepts/themes/principles is important
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html -
Dear Wakas
Yes, I noticed also that Abdu did not reply when you pointed out the flaws in his argument. And with all due respect, absolutely no aggression from my side towards you, but Wakas, I would not reply to you either....You showed that you did not understand his point when you pointed out his flaws. Sorry man, don't mean to be harsh.
The point Adbu had was that if the verses before and after were dealing with something VERY important about woman-man relationships, then how on earth can the verses 2238-239 describe something totally different and totally out of context.
Therefore Adbu's point was that it is no use to have verse 2238 as a base in a discussion regarding how many salaat or whatever we are to do in order to connect to God. Verse 2238 has nothing to do with salaat (prayer).I don't speak Arabic, but people I know do, and they say the Quran is absolutely beautiful to read, the words connect in a way that touches your heart. Keeping the beauty of the Quran in mind, the message regarding marriage in Surah 2 gets seriously abrupted and the "flow" of words are broken if all of a sudden a verse about prayers is thrown in the midst.....Any poet would tell you that. I think this point is missed in the link you provided. At least that point is important to bear in mind for us Non-Arabic speaking Muslims when facing the abundance of English translations of the Quran.
Sorry Wakas, I just feel that sometimes the discussions here on FM start off good, but they very quickly go into detail and all of a sudden there is an argument if the translation of a word should be "bond" or "connection"......thus my so sought after "big picture" is lost.
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Dear Emil,
I am assuming you read the thread, thus would know I do not agree with the traditional view of 2238, hence I'm not sure why you brought up the points you did above, as they are points I agree with.
You showed that you did not understand his point when you pointed out his flaws.
Perhaps I understood it perfectly and it is you who did not understand my objection? If you apparently understood what Abdu wrote, perhaps you can provide a counter-argument to my alleged flaws? Both Abdu and you are silent on the matter.
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I don't speak Arabic, but people I know do, and they say the Quran is absolutely beautiful to read, the words connect in a way that touches your heart. Keeping the beauty of the Quran in mind, the message regarding marriage in Surah 2 gets seriously abrupted and the "flow" of words are broken if all of a sudden a verse about prayers is thrown in the midst.....Any poet would tell you that. I think this point is missed in the link you provided. At least that point is important to bear in mind for us Non-Arabic speaking Muslims when facing the abundance of English translations of the Quran.
There is absolutely smooth flow of words and very softly moving into a different situation which will bring in a temporary alienation of relationship with wife. Next Ayat is for those who are alienating while they are leaving behind wives....................
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Dear Emil,
I am assuming you read the thread, thus would know I do not agree with the traditional view of 2238, hence I'm not sure why you brought up the points you did above, as they are points I agree with.
Perhaps I understood it perfectly and it is you who did not understand my objection? If you apparently understood what Abdu wrote, perhaps you can provide a counter-argument to my alleged flaws? Both Abdu and you are silent on the matter.
Dear Wakas
Let me first say that I am in no way trying to argue with you, I know your view of 2238 and I too do not agree with the traditional interpretation. You are very experienced, I can see that by reading what you write. My reasons for posting this in the first place is that sometimes we look for the complicated instead of the simple, we do not see the trees because the forest is blocking our view. Please keep this mind, what I actually wanted to point out, not to you but to all.
I read somewhere about a shrink asking an south american indian what he would do if the water turned pink. The indian not being able (because of his way of life and culture) to comprehend a hypothetical question got angry. His answer to the question was "What kind of question is that? Water cannot turn pink, your question is invalid and totally nonsense......"
That is what Abdu (and now me) is saying, To argue against 2238 being proof of number of prayers is invalid because 2238 does not have anything to do with prayer in the first place. Why? because a message of prayer in that particular verse does not fit the big picture.
I know you understand what I mean. And the point about Abdu not replying when you pointed out a flaw in his interpretation....well I think his non-reply is reply enough....By not replying he is telling you that he considers the whole argument to be invalid and non-existent because 2238 has nothing to do with prayer, just like water cannot turn pink.
We all have our different ways of arguing for our sake and standpoint. Abdu and I seem to use the same kind of technique, start with the big picture....and I must stress my objective again, I opened this thread as a reminder that sometimes it is good to look on a grand scale, otherwise we are at risk for getting into arguments about the little things.
There is absolutely smooth flow of words and very softly moving into a different situation which will bring in a temporary alienation of relationship with wife. Next Ayat is for those who are alienating while they are leaving behind wives....................
peace
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Dear Emil,
I agree, sometimes a non-reply is reply enough. For example, if I point out a flaw with someone's argument and they are silent, I will interpret that silent "reply" accordingly.
I think you give the Indian too little credit. If I was the shrink I'd make a trip to the Indian reservation and go upstream with some red food colouring and show the Indian just what colours water can go. ;D
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Peace,
Abdul approach instead of trying to fit squares into circles as many do when finally deciding to follow the Quran but still find it difficult to part with old practices, gives me a new way of tackling different issues with regards to Quran.
While in Hadiths and to make them credible, Bukhari used to introduce a verse as a support argument for his conclusion.
Example (Sahih Bukhari)
Book 008, Number 3243
Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported We were on an expedition with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and we had no women with us. We said Should we not have ourselves castrated? He (the Holy Prophet) forbade us to do so He then granted us permission that we should contract temporary marriage for a stipulated period giving her a garment, and 'Abdullah then recited this verse 'Those who believe do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, and do not transgress. Allah does not like trangressers" (al-Qur'an, v. 87).
The reason why I'm mentioning this is that when debating with members of my family about the Quran, and whenever I use a particular verse, they object by saying that I need to read the whole chapter or the previous as well as the following verses.
My reply was why do you accept hadiths then? but this is indeed wrong and weak.
The prevailing understanding of the Quran is that topics are scatted all over the 114 chapters, and if anyone want to understand a specific issue he needs to gather all relevant verses that use the same word, the example here is Salat..
and form this he can draw a precise and clear understanding.One of the problems with this approach in my view at the moment, is that it makes the Quran difficult to study as it requires someone with a google like type of mind search engine!
Regards
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Peace,
Peace,
Abdul approach instead of trying to fit squares into circles as many do when finally deciding to follow the Quran but still find it difficult to part with old practices, gives me a new way of tackling different issues with regards to Quran.
While in Hadiths and to make them credible, Bukhari used to introduce a verse as a support argument for his conclusion.
Example (Sahih Bukhari)
The reason why I'm mentioning this is that when debating with members of my family about the Quran, and whenever I use a particular verse, they object by saying that I need to read the whole chapter or the previous as well as the following verses.My reply was why do you accept hadiths then? but this is indeed wrong and weak.
The prevailing understanding of the Quran is that topics are scatted all over the 114 chapters, and if anyone want to understand a specific issue he needs to gather all relevant verses that use the same word, the example here is Salat..
and form this he can draw a precise and clear understanding.One of the problems with this approach in my view at the moment, is that it makes the Quran difficult to study as it requires someone with a google like type of mind search engine!
Regards
first, i personally think topics are not just "scattered all over the 114 chapters". I agree that reading whole chapter is a good idea. Even the longer chapters --An-Nisa is quite an example, how reading whole chapter from the very first verse would give the much more "whole" view that one won't ever get just by pulling out individual verses by the keyword(s) of his interest. No, from my experience, "googling" as we know it today is far from being the best way to understand any important subject matter in sufficient depth. There is obvious need for us to "follow the flow" of the Reading as it is presented. So this need should be kept in mind.
second, there are tools like corpus.quran.com that makes searching AQ by word/root much easier. Making it easier to group of verses with similar/specific issue at once. This is the flexibility of AQ that i think, results from its consistency. And which also helps us to expose the inconsistencies of any teaching that goes against it.
so we need to balance our study with both approaches--reading the whole and reading the details.
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Peace,
first, i personally think topics are not just "scattered all over the 114 chapters". I agree that reading whole chapter is a good idea. Even the longer chapters --An-Nisa is quite an example, how reading whole chapter from the very first verse would give the much more "whole" view that one won't ever get just by pulling out individual verses by the keyword(s) of his interest. No, from my experience, "googling" as we know it today is far from being the best way to understand any important subject matter in sufficient depth. There is obvious need for us to "follow the flow" of the Reading as it is presented. So this need should be kept in mind.
second, there are tools like corpus.quran.com that makes searching AQ by word/root much easier. Making it easier to group of verses with similar/specific issue at once. This is the flexibility of AQ that i think, results from its consistency. And which also helps us to expose the inconsistencies of any teaching that goes against it.
so we need to balance our study with both approaches--reading the whole and reading the details.
Well said handshake
