Praise Be to Muhammad rasool Allah
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you can take the words of God and use it to support any belief that you hold - using for your convenience, purpose or to justify your ways. so, a hard core sunni will use the words of God to justify and support his belief, just as a shia. if you believe that a woman should obey her husband and wear hijab, you will find the ayats in the koran supporting that view. if you believe that you should not make friends with non-muslims, you will find verses in the koran to support that. if you believe that only those who follow the koran and hadiths go to heavan, you will find verses in the koran to support that.
how many actually discard all the bias, influences, culture, etc sit down with the koran with a clear mind/heart seeking refuge in God from satan and read the Koran with all sincerity to understand, seek knowledge, wisdom? i wonder.
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you can take the words of God and use it to support any belief that you hold - using for your convenience, purpose or to justify your ways. so, a hard core sunni will use the words of God to justify and support his belief, just as a shia. if you believe that a woman should obey her husband and wear hijab, you will find the ayats in the koran supporting that view. if you believe that you should not make friends with non-muslims, you will find verses in the koran to support that. if you believe that only those who follow the koran and hadiths go to heavan, you will find verses in the koran to support that.
Your observations above are the truth about what happened to God?s teachings about all Truth. When the Arabs chose the riches of Baghdad and the world, instead of upholding the Truth for the Gospels and the Taurat, they created their own religion islam through wars, conquests and suppression. The environments we have in our world today are proofs that the Arabs did not follow God?s commandments of upholding the Truth.
how many actually discard all the bias, influences, culture, etc sit down with the koran with a clear mind/heart seeking refuge in God from satan and read the Koran with all sincerity to understand, seek knowledge, wisdom? i wonder.
This is the Straight Path, justamuslim. Read and understand the Book of Truth in your own language and God will explain into your heart the truth about all Truth. Be a witness instead of just a muslim ;D.
tauhid101.
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I have even said if Muhammed, or any other messenger where here now I would be first in line to wash their feet!
Why?
Ayisha
The MOST Exalted? hhmmm.
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According to those verse Allah is The Most Exalted, and you say you don't take Muhammed as partner? You have just proved you do. I suggest you read the book RajHow long will you keep on running from the truth? If according to these verses Allah is the most Exalted, who has contradicted it? I am discussing about the Exalted position of Muhammad, and Muhammad is a Messenger, Messenger of Allah. The discussion is about Messengers and Messengers, Messengers and ordinary people. Wake up.
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All prophets and messengers were sent as bearers of good news and as warners
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Have you ever read this book Raj?Sure I have read this book, but it seems you have just copy pasted from some site (the verses numbers),without even verifying them.
3772
We have sent to them warners.
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We never annihilate any community without sending warners.
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Mankind was one single nation, and God sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings
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Messengers who were bearers of good news and warners, so that there will be no excuse for the people with God after the messengers. God is Noble, Wise.
6.48
We do not send the messengers except as deliverers of good news, as well as warners. Those who believe and reform have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
18.56
We only send the messengers as simply deliverers of good news, as well as warners. Those who disbelieve argue with falsehood to defeat the truth, and they take My proofs and warnings in vain.and what I posted was this, with a word in red.
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O prophet, we have sent you as a witness, a bearer of good news, as well as a warner.Next time you try to contradict, just read it once before posting the Ayat number, that helps.
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I have even said if Muhammed, or any other messenger where here now I would be first in line to wash their feet!
Why?
Because they were messengers of GodAyishaHow long will you keep on running from the truth? If according to these verses Allah is the most Exalted, who has contradicted it? I am discussing about the Exalted position of Muhammad, and Muhammad is a Messenger, Messenger of Allah. The discussion is about Messengers and Messengers, Messengers and ordinary people. Wake up.
Raj you said Muhammed is 'the Most Exalted' and those verses prove he is not, Allah is. Obviously your English is not so good as you dont seem to understand what you are claiming in saying that, now are you saying Allah contradicts himself too? I am not running from the truth raj, you are.
You have banged on for 25 pages now and everyone thats posted has disagreed with you but you still dont get it. You post a claim that Allah raises some more than others and post a verse to back that up about Jesus and Moses, none about Muhammed though, yet you still cannot see it. Allah also raises some of us more than others which has also been pointed out to you, but you still cannot see it.
You are bringing the same arguement over 25 pages when many people have tried to show you verses that you are wrong and you cannot bring one verse telling you to raise/praise/exalt Muhammed above any other messenger so i think it's clear now that you refuse to see and that is the way Allah is leading you. Enjoy your (sunni) path. giveup
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Sure I have read this book, but it seems you have just copy pasted from some site (the verses numbers),without even verifying them.
3772
We have sent to them warners.
26.208
We never annihilate any community without sending warners.
2.213
Mankind was one single nation, and God sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings
4.165
Messengers who were bearers of good news and warners, so that there will be no excuse for the people with God after the messengers. God is Noble, Wise.
6.48
We do not send the messengers except as deliverers of good news, as well as warners. Those who believe and reform have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
18.56
We only send the messengers as simply deliverers of good news, as well as warners. Those who disbelieve argue with falsehood to defeat the truth, and they take My proofs and warnings in vain.and what I posted was this, with a word in red.
Next time you try to contradict, just read it once before posting the Ayat number, that helps.I did read them but it has already pointed out to you about witnesses and you failed to see that too. Those verses prove that all messengers were sent with good news and as warners and were witnesses to the people they were sent to. Now in your mind you are thinking 'YES and Muhammed was sent to ALL mankind so he is better!' so i will leave you with that. For me, Allah is witness enough.
4.166 Allah is enough as witness
63.1 Allah bears witness
85.9 Allah is witness to all thingsInteresting bit I found in my little searchette
010.018
YUSUFALI They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"010.028
YUSUFALI One day shall We gather them all together. Then shall We say to those who joined gods (with Us) "To your place! ye and those ye joined as 'partners' We shall separate them, and their "Partners" shall say "It was not us that ye worshipped!010.029
YUSUFALI "Enough is Allah for a witness between us and you we certainly knew nothing of your worship of us!"010.035
YUSUFALI Say "Of your 'partners' is there any that can give any guidance towards truth?" Say "It is Allah Who gives guidance towards truth, is then He Who gives guidance to truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided? what then is the matter with you? How judge ye?"I am sure Mazhar will now say this means hand carved statues but please also check 4523.
010.041
YUSUFALI If they charge thee with falsehood, say "My work to me, and yours to you! ye are free from responsibility for what I do, and I for what ye do!"
010.042
YUSUFALI Among them are some who (pretend to) listen to thee But canst thou make the deaf to hear,- even though they are without understanding?giveup
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Interesting bit I found in my little searchette
010.018
YUSUFALI They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"010.028
YUSUFALI One day shall We gather them all together. Then shall We say to those who joined gods (with Us) "To your place! ye and those ye joined as 'partners' We shall separate them, and their "Partners" shall say "It was not us that ye worshipped!010.029
YUSUFALI "Enough is Allah for a witness between us and you we certainly knew nothing of your worship of us!"010.035
YUSUFALI Say "Of your 'partners' is there any that can give any guidance towards truth?" Say "It is Allah Who gives guidance towards truth, is then He Who gives guidance to truth more worthy to be followed, or he who finds not guidance (himself) unless he is guided? what then is the matter with you? How judge ye?"I am sure Mazhar will now say this means hand carved statues but please also check 4523.
You identify who are they?
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you can take the words of God and use it to support any belief that you hold - using for your convenience, purpose or to justify your ways. so, a hard core sunni will use the words of God to justify and support his belief, just as a shia. if you believe that a woman should obey her husband and wear hijab, you will find the ayats in the koran supporting that view. if you believe that you should not make friends with non-muslims, you will find verses in the koran to support that. if you believe that only those who follow the koran and hadiths go to heavan, you will find verses in the koran to support that.
No you can't. You have to twist it first with selfish agenda, and then it's no longer the "words of God".
Peace
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Who 'they' are is irrelevant as the lesson from the verses are not to take anything or anyone as partners to Allah, which is why I also referenced 4523, and I have checked your translation already.
There the other made as Ileha other than Allah is mentioned. In your quoteed Ayaat only reference is given. So without determining "who or what they are" how can you perceive what is said therein except a vague understanding which have equal chances of being false? So try to determine since you have declared that they cannot be statues whom people consider and call Ileha.
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had, have, will, it makes no difference as the main importance of that verse is accepted belief in Allah and the Last Day; and he performed righteous acts. There are many Christians and Jews who abide by the above without having accepted the final messenger and there are many who abide by that without ever knowing of any messengers or books.
had, have, will, it makes no difference as the main importance of that verse is
. In English they determine the sentence structure and convey the correct perception of the author and you think that does not make any difference. People ignore basic prinnciples only at places where they wish to follow their own desires and conveniently, without even feel of guilt, distort the text. -
There the other made as Ileha other than Allah is mentioned. In your quoteed Ayaat only reference is given. So without determining "who or what they are" how can you perceive what is said therein except a vague understanding which have equal chances of being false? So try to determine since you have declared that they cannot be statues whom people consider and call Ileha.
the word 'Ileha' is not in any of those verses, it is talking about taking 'partners'. In fact i can't find that word at all in Quran, did you spell it correctly?
Without determining who or what they are one can still see the message attached to it, the lesson that is to be learned from that message of not taking anything or anyone as partner with God, I dont need to know who or what 'they' are to establish that and that is not a vague understanding with chance of being false. To search for who or what 'they' are without actually looking at what is said 'about them' would give a vague understanding with equal chance of being right or wrong.
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the word 'Ileha' is not in any of those verses, it is talking about taking 'partners'. In fact i can't find that word at all in Quran, did you spell it correctly?
Without determining who or what they are one can still see the message attached to it, the lesson that is to be learned from that message of not taking anything or anyone as partner with God, I dont need to know who or what 'they' are to establish that and that is not a vague understanding with chance of being false. To search for who or what 'they' are without actually looking at what is said 'about them' would give a vague understanding with equal chance of being right or wrong.
You talked about 4523, there it is mentioned what he has adopted as "Ileha". People adopt other non living things as various . Since you wish not to determine as to what is referred in other Ayat, you intend to remain under the impression as if people equate the Messenger of Him Muhammad as partner with Allah.
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You talked about 4523, there it is mentioned what he has adopted as "Ileha". People adopt other non living things as various . Since you wish not to determine as to what is referred in other Ayat, you intend to remain under the impression as if people equate the Messenger of Him Muhammad as partner with Allah.
nooo, would people do that? i mean elevate him above other messengers and make him 'distinct' from the other messengers and prophets of Allah and say he is the most exalted?? no people would never do that as they will see clearly from reading Quran that only Allah is Most Exalted and He sent many messengers and says clearly they were human and also explains how man has taken other people and things as partners to Him before, no that would never happen would it!
that was sarcasm yuck
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Ayisha
These 25 pages have proved, that at last you have admitted, You who once got irritated with the mentioning of name Muhammad, is now ready to be in line to wash his feet. That is a big change. Though nowhere in Quran Allah has ordered that. Now before that statement you were disobeying Quran and even now you are disobeying Quran. You are a disbeliever, that has been proved on various accounts.Ayisha
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I have even said if Muhammed, or any other messenger where here now I would be first in line to wash their feet!
Why?
Because they were messengers of GodWhich verse of Quran tells you to do such an act? You really are not following Quran.
Raj you said Muhammed is 'the Most Exalted' and those verses prove he is not, Allah is. Obviously your English is not so good as you dont seem to understand what you are claiming in saying that, now are you saying Allah contradicts himself too? I am not running from the truth raj, you are.
You cannot hide weakness of your argument behind my English. I said Muhammad is the "most Exalted" amongst the Messengers, and it has nothing to do with Allah. You are proven a deceiver and Liar once again, every one knows who is reading the thread that we are discussing the status of messengers and not comparing messengers with Allah. Your deceitful attempt goes null and void, once again.
Ayisha
You have banged on for 25 pages now and everyone thats posted has disagreed with you but you still dont get it. You post a claim that Allah raises some more than others and post a verse to back that up about Jesus and Moses, none about Muhammed though, yet you still cannot see it. Allah also raises some of us more than others which has also been pointed out to you, but you still cannot see it.
Off course, this is a free-minds forum, and most of them will call Messengers, a Post man, compare them to Donkeys, or present them as part timers, well then it is my Duty to show them from quran what is the Status of them in eyes of Allah, and Allhamdullilah I have done my job, satisfactorily, your irritation and panic shows it. I am sure even if Posted this thread at Sunni forums, they would also not be feeling comfortable with it, as No where does this thread elevate the Status of Muhammad to semi God, or to a person who is to be worshiped.
The verse which I chose to show you that Allah, has awarded different status for different Messengers, one does not need to be scholar in Arabic, to understand it.
I will repeat it for You
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat2_files/2_253.gifMoses and Jesus have high status, but yet others are raised to higher ranks.
This verse clearly demolishes the claim of free-minders that Allah do not, make distinction between Messengers.We believe in all of them and that what they brought with them is from Allah and that they preached to the people to come to Allah and obey Him. The believers are to oppose what the Jews have done, for they accepted Moses, but disbelieved in Jesus. They are to also oppose the Christians, for they accepted Jesus, but disbelieved in Muhammad (peace is upon him). They are also to oppose Munafiqeens. They have to accept them all without any distinction.
But Allah clearly tells us that some of them are preferred over others, and you cannot deny this fact.
And Why Muhammad over all others, more than enough proves from Quran have been provided for that. Therefore there is no contradiction in Allah's Ayats as you keep on parroting.Now in your mind you are thinking 'YES and Muhammed was sent to ALL mankind so he is better!' so i will leave you with that.
No, not me Allah says it.
Enjoy your (sunni) path. giveup
I am no sunni, shia or Quranist,etc. I am just a Muslim as Allah has announced in Quran.
The purpose of this thread was to make aware many Muslims that they should mention the name of Muhammad Peace is upon Him, with respect and honor, which most of free-minders failed to do in past. And I don't think so I have failed in the quest.
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Ayisha
These 25 pages have proved, that at last you have admitted, You who once got irritated with the mentioning of name Muhammad, is now ready to be in line to wash his feet. That is a big change.I said this over 2 weeks ago Raj, with a full explanation http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601214.msg259581;topicseen#msg259581 to which you made some silly reply obviously without reading it. It is no change, I have never got irritated with the mention of Muhammed and have always said ALL prophets blah blah you dont read anything anyway blah blah so im not really going to bother blah blah
Might bother reading the rest later
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Ayisha
It is no change, I have never got irritated with the mention of Muhammed and have always said ALL prophets blah blah you dont read anything anyway blah blah so im not really going to bother blah blah
Might bother reading the rest later
You don't feel well! Go to sleep, and when you wake up find for me the verse, that tells us to wash the feet of Messengers?
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Ayisha
You don't feel well! Go to sleep, and when you wake up find for me the verse, that tells us to wash the feet of Messengers?I feel fine Raj. Who said there was a verse telling us that? I certainly didnt but now you mention it, find me the verse that tells you to raise Muhammed above all other messengers as im still waiting for that and countless others you have mde claim to AND the one where it says he was witness for all the WORLDS which you claimed earlier, oh and while you're at it, the one that says you can use a computer.
think about it! )
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Though nowhere in Quran Allah has ordered that. Now before that statement you were disobeying Quran and even now you are disobeying Quran. You are a disbeliever, that has been proved on various accounts.
Thank you or raising yourself to position of God and declaring me a disbeliever, I think you will find you have certainly disobeyed Quran.Ayisha
Which verse of Quran tells you to do such an act? You really are not following Quran.
There is no verse which tells me to do this act, i would do it of a mark of respect to any messenger of God. There is no verse telling me to communicate by computer or to ride a bus or wear shoes either or fly in a plane, but my disobedience to Quran obviously knows no boundsYou cannot hide weakness of your argument behind my English. I said Muhammad is the "most Exalted" amongst the Messengers, and it has nothing to do with Allah. You are proven a deceiver and Liar once again, every one knows who is reading the thread that we are discussing the status of messengers and not comparing messengers with Allah. Your deceitful attempt goes null and void, once again.
Your quote from page 24
Prophet is sent as a witness for all mankind, to all the worlds
O prophet, we have sent you as a witness, a bearer of good news, as well as a warner.Ayisha regarding 944, it is you who can never understand the elevated status of beloved of Allah.
When reading whole Surah, it could be concluded that Muhammad Peace is upon him is disheartened by the attitude of people who do not give him due respect and do not believe in his teachings, in response. Allah mentions his favors upon his prophet, and one of them is 944, at the time this Ayat was revealed very few believed in its truthfulness, but as the Skies and Earth saw, soon His name was the most EXALTED one, still is and will remain in the future, no matter whatever tactics the Jealous people try using to down grade him.
Yes everyone reading this can surely see who said what
I wonder if you can explain verses 941-3 for me seeing as you have claimed what verse 4 is about.
Ayisha
Off course, this is a free-minds forum, and most of them will call Messengers, a Post man, compare them to Donkeys, or present them as part timers, well then it is my Duty to show them from quran what is the Status of them in eyes of Allah, and Allhamdullilah I have done my job, satisfactorily, your irritation and panic shows it. I am sure even if Posted this thread at Sunni forums, they would also not be feeling comfortable with it, as No where does this thread elevate the Status of Muhammad to semi God, or to a person who is to be worshiped.
so you have done your duty and you are not Quran alone, why are you still here? I have no irritation and no panic, amusement yes, panic no. You have not done your duty in showing ANY verse that raises Muhammed specifically above other messengers of Allah, you have managed to say Allah gives some a higher status and in that verse he mentions Jesus, so why are you not exalting Jesus above the rest? bring me a verse that specifically says Muhammed is higher in status than other messengers otherwise its you that is not actually following Quran, not me.The verse which I chose to show you that Allah, has awarded different status for different Messengers, one does not need to be scholar in Arabic, to understand it.
I know, and it says about Jesus and Moses, not Muhammed.I will repeat it for You
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat2_files/2_253.gifMoses and Jesus have high status, but yet others are raised to higher ranks.
where does it say that? Where does it say Muhammed was raised to higher rank? Does Allah expect telepathy in this verse?This verse clearly demolishes the claim of free-minders that Allah do not, make distinction between Messengers.
No it doesntWe believe in all of them and that what they brought with them is from Allah and that they preached to the people to come to Allah and obey Him. The believers are to oppose what the Jews have done, for they accepted Moses, but disbelieved in Jesus. They are to also oppose the Christians, for they accepted Jesus, but disbelieved in Muhammad (peace is upon him). They are also to oppose Munafiqeens. They have to accept them all without any distinction.
Yes they all preached to worship the One God and the Jews changed it with their tongues by adding hadith and the Christians changed it to worhip of the prophet and the muslims raised the status of Muhammed in a similar wayBut Allah clearly tells us that some of them are preferred over others, and you cannot deny this fact.
Does He? where? where does Allah tell us to 'prefer' one prophet over others?And Why Muhammad over all others, more than enough proves from Quran have been provided for that.
You have provided NO proof! Not one single verse that says Muhammed is higher than any other prophet, not one!Therefore there is no contradiction in Allah's Ayats as you keep on parroting.
I have not once said there is any contradiction in Allahs ayat, not once raj so you are a liar which can be clearly seen by anyone reading this thread.No, not me Allah says it.
where? where does Allah say that because Muhammed was sent to all mankind he is better?I am no sunni, shia or Quranist,etc. I am just a Muslim as Allah has announced in Quran.
Me tooThe purpose of this thread was to make aware many Muslims that they should mention the name of Muhammad Peace is upon Him, with respect and honor, which most of free-minders failed to do in past. And I don't think so I have failed in the quest.
You have failed as you have not convinced anyone and not managed to bring one single verse to back up your claim. As for sallalahu alayhi wa salam, the jury is still out on that waiting Mazhars translation of it complete as far as im aware, although he does seem to be avoiding it. Maybe you could translate it for us and also the verse you claim tells you to do this 'act' ??
No one in these forums has ever not given Muhammed respect, we follow Quran so how can anyone who follows Quran NOT respect the messenger that delivered it?