Quran alone interpreted according to whom?
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Peace to all,
Personally, I did reflect with a brother in Paris on this question and I reached the conclusion I'm going to share with you
People of the Qur'an need an accepted and recognized authority who speaks in the name of God. One to whom God brings the correct understanding in what we are divided ( different understandings,...).
At the time of prophet Muhammad, they had their messenger. Today, I think we need this autority. Otherwise, each one will follow his own understanding. Tamara raised "THE" question, and she did well.
bravo
There has never been any nation or people that has conquered when divided. Is there any legit proof or "stamp of approval" on the articles you can find on Free Minds? Has there ever been any consensus at all amongst us?
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peace Kamzo,
Tamara and others may have raised this question, but it seems to suffer from a fatal flaw, i.e. what it implies that is needed has no basis in The Quran.
Unless it can be proven otherwise? If so, please share.
Are you asking if can be proven in the AQ? If yes, why do you need to find proof in the Quran about something that is the very core of mankind?
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In an idealistic society everyone could well follow his own interpretation of the Quran and live the way that they choose to live. However in the realistic world if a society wishes to live by making the Quran a source of guidance what methodology would they follow that is to say how would they come about a common interpretation to run their affairs? This was probably the same question that was faced by the early Muslims when faced with the death of the prophet.
In my study of the Sunnism and Shiism I have seen the development of two systems to address this fact.
Among Sunnism it is through Ijtihad (independent reasoning) and ijma (consensus) of the learned scholars.
Among Shiism it is through the concept of Immamat (Infallible Imam) and his divine word (infallible interpretation by the imam) that the matter is addressed. A system much like the Catholics practice.
Which begs the question how would a Quranist society run itself in the realistic domain??
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Are you asking if can be proven in the AQ? If yes, why do you need to find proof in the Quran about something that is the very core of mankind?
I don't understand what you are saying/implying.
AFAIK what people seem to be implying here is that a central authority or one interpretation is needed so we can all follow it and have unity etc. If that is the case, please bring evidence from Al Quran (AQ) that this is the system or method recommended.
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I don't understand what you are saying/implying.
AFAIK what people seem to be implying here is that a central authority or one interpretation is needed so we can all follow it and have unity etc. If that is the case, please bring evidence from Al Quran (AQ) that this is the system or method recommended.
It seems that although people 'break away' from the traditional sheeplike mentality, they still think they need a shepherd other than God to show them where to graze ???
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In an idealistic society everyone could well follow his own interpretation of the Quran and live the way that they choose to live. However in the realistic world if a society wishes to live by the making the Quran a source of guidance what methodology would they follow that is to say how would they come about a common interpretation to run their affairs? This was probably the same question that was faced by the early Muslims when faced with the death of the prophet.
In my study of the Sunnism and Shiism I have seen the development of two systems to address this fact.
Among Sunnism it is through Ijtihad (independent reasoning) and ijma (consensus) of the learned scholars.
Among Shiism it is through the concept of Immamat (Infallible Imam) and his divine word (infallible interpretation by the imam) that the matter is addressed. A system much like the Catholics practice.
Which begs the question how would a Quranist society run itself in the realistic domain??
Easy...
Who are the top three on the religious Sh*t list of the world?
1 Sunni
2 Shia
3 CatholicsSurprisingly, they are also the (amongst major religions) top three with "thou shalt not" rules. Also, religious authority is not something you oppose or question....
What about the other big religions? Well there are Hinduism and Buddhism, roughly 1,7 billion people are either Hindu or Buddhist. So let's look at those two..
Hinduism " Hinduism refers to a religious mainstream which evolved organically and spread over a large territory marked by significant ethnic and cultural diversity. This mainstream evolved both by innovation from within, and by assimilation of external traditions or cults into the Hindu fold. The result is an enormous variety of religious traditions, ranging from innumerable small, unsophisticated cults to major religious movements with millions of adherents spread over the entire subcontinent. The identification of Hinduism as an independent religion separate from Buddhism or Jainism consequently hinges on the affirmation of its adherents that it is such."
Hmmm, they got a loadfull to sort out, and still there are about 900 million people who call themselves Hindu
What about Buddhism?
"According to the scriptures, during his lifetime the Buddha remained silent when asked several metaphysical questions. These regarded issues such as whether the universe is eternal or non-eternal (or whether it is finite or infinite), the unity or separation of the body and the self, the complete inexistence of a person after Nirvana and death, and others. One explanation for this silence is that such questions distract from activity that is practical to realizing enlightenment and bring about the danger of substituting the experience of liberation by conceptual understanding of the doctrine or by religious faith."
A pretty elusive messenger, how on earth can 770 million people join this prophet?
So how can a Quranist society run itself in the realistic domain? Answer by looking at the systems of those religions that have suceeded in practising their religion without non-followers getting angry, that have followers from different ethnic backgrounds and have risen above geographical hindrances or lack of structured guidance from a prophet.
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It seems that although people 'break away' from the traditional sheeplike mentality, they still think they need a shepherd other than God to show them where to graze ???
I don't understand what you are saying/implying.
AFAIK what people seem to be implying here is that a central authority or one interpretation is needed so we can all follow it and have unity etc. If that is the case, please bring evidence from Al Quran (AQ) that this is the system or method recommended.
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Dear Ayisha, Dear Wakas
It is not a shepherd that we are talking about, it is unity, to belong to something, to be able to connect with other people of the same like. If we are not able to have one answer, then how are we to unite?
Cheesy but true "United we stand, divided we fall". And excuse me for not finding proof in the AQ, dear Wakas. Sometimes we actually can find the answer or reason by just looking inside ourselves.
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Dear Ayisha, Dear Wakas
It is not a shepherd that we are talking about, it is unity, to belong to something, to be able to connect with other people of the same like. If we are not able to have one answer, then how are we to unite?
Cheesy but true "United we stand, divided we fall". And excuse me for not finding proof in the AQ, dear Wakas. Sometimes we actually can find the answer or reason by just looking inside ourselves.
Peace Emil
I do understand what you're saying but the unity is following Quran and following Allah and as Allah did not make us all into pre-programmed robots so there is always going to be differences in opinions, even in the prophets time there were differences. Belonging is to Allah, its not a club to belong to and its not about 'connecting' with anyone other than Allah. Here in FM there are those we can 'connect' with on some things and not on others but we are generally 'like minded' as we are looking at Quran only. You can still see the vast amount of differences in thought process and what we all take from it individually though. to have a set of rules other than rules in Quran would lead to something that is not true 'belief' but something the same as traditionlists have in that you are told what is right and what this means etc etc, it would be no different. One cannot force belief, you either do or you dont believe, so saying 'this means this' but one cannot 'see' that is not true belief, its submission to some doctrine invented by someone elses views on Quran.
39.18 Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.
This does not mean those who follow someone elses decision as to what the best meaning in it is, it means for US, each one, to listen and find the best meaning in it for US, each one of us, as Allah has made His verses clear for those who think and reflect so yes, we can find the answer and the reason by looking inside ourselves when reading Quran and thinking about it peace
of course this is my opinion from my reading, yours may be different, but thats why we discuss things so we have opinions from every angle and use others viewpoints to reach our own understanding.
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It seems that although people 'break away' from the traditional sheeplike mentality, they still think they need a shepherd other than God to show them where to graze ???
The true messenger recites to you God's message. He says what God (the sheperd) says. If you don't need this messenger raised from among us , who teaches us the scripture and wisdom ( 2151) so tell me please what is the correct meaning of sura 100 ?
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In the real world there is such a thing as a law to run the affairs of the society. So if in a certain society all the members follow the guidance of the book of God solely how would they go about creating a law based on the Quran that would run their society? For that end you would need a common interpretation that is acceptable to all otherwise you would be living in anarchy with everyone practicing their own brand of vigilante Quranic justice. So how does the guidance of the Quran manifest itself in a society?
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The true messenger recites to you God's message. He says what God (the sheperd) says.
yes which we have in a bookIf you don't need this messenger raised from among us , who teaches us the scripture and wisdom ( 2151)
'If I dont need this messenger' ??? the messenger was raised among THEM, he is not with US anymore and he taught the scripture and wisdom( quran) which we still have. How can he teach us NOW from his grave? You said he says what God says, so what we have is what God said, right? Where did it come from that I 'don't need' this messenger? no one was talking about messengers, I thought we were discussing a leader NOW after the leader Muhammed died. Anyway, YES I do think we still need him here now to sort out the obvious discrepancies within islams followers, but sadly he is not here with us.
so tell me please what is the correct meaning of sura 100 ?
sorry will come back to that as in middle of working right now, don't want to give any reply without proper studying it first which im sure you will appreciate peace
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In the real world there is such a thing as a law to run the affairs of the society. So if in a certain society all the members follow the guidance of the book of God solely how would they go about creating a law based on the Quran that would run their society? For that end you would need a common interpretation that is acceptable to all otherwise you would be living in anarchy with everyone practicing their own brand of vigilante Quranic justice. So how does the guidance of the Quran manifest itself in a society?
It doesnt, it manifests in individuals. The sharia based laws are proof enough that making it 'Law' to be adhered to though force doesnt work and they use hadith integrated to make it 'Law'. the 'Law' is made within ourselves by each following 'the best of it' that we can. there is no compulsion, so how do you make a law that everyone is to abide by without compulsion? Truth stands out clear from error, but you can't force everyone to see it.
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sorry will come back to that as in middle of working right now, don't want to give any reply without proper studying it first which im sure you will appreciate peace
I'm waiting for this, and it is a challenge to everyone If we are not in need of someone to whom God brings the correct understanding of the book containing God's message (2533, 2179) so someone would be able to bring me the correct understanding of sura 100. Or tell me what is the exact nature of the Smoke in sura 44 and when it will happen ?
Zees is right. What he says shows that we need somebody who, when we will all meditate upon a chapter of the Qur'an and when we'll be arguing between us to know who's right in his own understanding, this special person will be the one before whom the problem that has emerged will be judged. He will be the authority, and will judge among us with what God has revealed the Qur'an. The only difference between him and us is that he's brought the correct understanding as in 2533. And we will submit if it is in accordance with the Qur'an of course.
Why should we be opponents to this idea, God tells us that it is a blessing to send someone like this is sura 2151 ? We should reflect upon this.
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It doesnt, it manifests in individuals. The sharia based laws are proof enough that making it 'Law' to be adhered to though force doesnt work and they use hadith integrated to make it 'Law'. the 'Law' is made within ourselves by each following 'the best of it' that we can. there is no compulsion, so how do you make a law that everyone is to abide by without compulsion? Truth stands out clear from error, but you can't force everyone to see it.
So the Quranic truth, decrees and the commandments that the book of God contains is nothing more than a subjective truth that requires no implementation whatsoever? Therefore the infallible truth of God is nothing more than a personal guide meant to reform the individual and has no practical import whatsoever for the society? So when faced with societal problems like murders, rape and corruption we ought to follow secular laws and ignore Quranic commandments concerning them but when faced with our personal demons we ought to resort to the Quran. Why don?t we expunge these laws concerning our mutual affairs from the Quran altogether so that it becomes a proper mystical book and we can chant it loudly like a fool so that we may increase our chances of experiencing unity with the godhead (whatever that means)? I wonder if that is the only purpose left of the Quran.
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peace all,
Interesting and somewhat surprising how this thread has developed.
It is clear when the proponents of ~"a central authority or one interpretation is needed so we can all follow it and have unity etc" were challenged to bring Quranic evidence for this position, they not only failed to do so (so far) but try to shift the burden of proof on the other side, and make possible logical fallacies such as strawman argument, red-herring and appeal to ridicule.
If you have no evidence by way of Quran and/or logic, then just say so and perhaps after, we can discuss other, possibly related issues, if you wish.
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I'm waiting for this, and it is a challenge to everyone If we are not in need of a someone to whom God brings the correct understanding of the book containing God's message (2533, 2179) so someone would be able to bring me the correct understanding of sura 100. Or tell me what is the exact nature of the Smoke in sura 44 and when it will happen ?
Peace Kamzo
So you think we need yet another messenger to tell you the same thing all other messengers have said and even after the final messenger left the final and 100% Words of God Himself with us, you still need another messenger to tell you what it means? ???I nor anyone else apart from God Himself can give you 'the correct' understanding of any verse, we can only give what 'we' each see as 'correct' understanding in the verses.
I will attempt to give my understanding of sura 100 using Yusef Ali translation, there are others and I suggest you read as many as you can to help in reaching an understanding
By the (Steeds) that run, with panting (breath),
And strike sparks of fire,
And push home the charge in the morning,
And raise the dust in clouds the while,
And penetrate forthwith into the midst (of the foe) en masse;-
Truly man is, to his Lord, ungrateful;Up to here I see this as Allah making a declaration, ie swearing BY these things, that Truely man is ungrateful to his Lord.
And to that (fact) he bears witness (by his deeds);
man bears witness to how ungrateful he is by the deeds he does
And violent is he in his love of wealth.
man shows in his deeds that he loves wealth, which is not necessarily money, more than God
Does he not know,- when that which is in the graves is scattered abroad
And that which is (locked up) in (human) breasts is made manifest-doesnt man know that on that last day when all the inhabitants in their graves will be scattered, ie rise to meet Him and that day when every human heart is opened for the things inside it to be shown to God and all to see
That their Lord had been Well-acquainted with them, (even to) that Day?
that God has known everything about them even what is in their hearts all along.
Its saying that God knows everything about everyone and those that think wealth, whatever it is they worship besides God, is more important than serving God in the way He has instructed to do for a believer and these don't think about this Day when they will have to meet God who will know exactly what they have done. There is no escape, we will meet Him and He will know everything, there is no hiding it or making excuses, it will be too late. he has us all pegged -\
Zees is right. What he says shows that we need somebody who, when we will all meditate upon a chapter of the Qur'an and when we'll be arguing between us to know who's right in his own understanding, this special person will be the one before whom the problem that has emerged will be judged. He will be the authority, and will judge among us with what God has revealed the Qur'an. The only difference between him and us is that he's brought the correct understanding as in 2533. And we will submit if it is in accordance with the Qur'an of course.
hhmmm. So you want another messenger and one you can submit to that has the correct understanding from God. We have had all we will get and now it's down to us to read it and think about it and research it and reflect on it and discuss it and pray for guidence from God that He will help us to understand it. He says it's clear, complete and easy to understand, so don't make it hard and don't be lazy in wanting someone else to give you the 'correct' understanding. I don't mean to be rude towards you here peace but even if someone comes to you with an understanding, like I have, you are supposed to still research and see if my understanding is 'correct' enough for your understanding. You will be judged on that day for your own understanding and how you follow it, you will have no excuse like 'he said it means this or that' as you are expected to use your brain that God gave you and your heart that God gave you to reach an understanding and follow the 'best of it' in the best way.Why should we be opponents to this idea, God tells us that it is a blessing to send someone like this is sura 2151 ? We should reflect upon this.
I dont think anyone's opposing it, we would all like Muhammed to be here as it would help a great deal, its just its not going to happen as we have had the final 'warning' and it is our duty to not fall as those before us fell.
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So the Quranic truth, decrees and the commandments that the book of God contains is nothing more than a subjective truth that requires no implementation whatsoever? Therefore the infallible truth of God is nothing more than a personal guide meant to reform the individual and has no practical import whatsoever for the society? So when faced with societal problems like murders, rape and corruption we ought to follow secular laws and ignore Quranic commandments concerning them but when faced with our personal demons we ought to resort to the Quran. Why don?t we expunge these laws concerning our mutual affairs from the Quran altogether so that it becomes a proper mystical book and we can chant it loudly like a fool so that we may increase our chances of experiencing unity with the godhead (whatever that means)? I wonder if that is the only purpose left of the Quran.
Peace Zees
ok, does Quran say there IS compulsion for everyone to follow this guidence? No, it says 'for those who believe' and it says 'truth stands out clear from error' and that is for those that do see it, those that don't, or do see and don't follow, God will deal with.
Murder is dealt with in Quran, so is Rape. Corruption is rife normally from the TOP down in most societies and sadly especially 'Islamic' ones, so how is it dealt with in those that do use 'sharia law'?
To a point I do agree, but what we are wanting is an 'Ideal' society and that is described in Quran where everyone follows it as God intended it to be followed, but this world is NOT an 'Ideal' society and God knows that very well as He has repeatedly said that man is ungrateful, man basically thinks he knows better than God, if man only knew, etc. So the ONLY way to have anything like this is starting within ourselves, but it will never reach everyone, its not that simple as God made man with 'free will' to follow or not.
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Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to answer and share you're understanding of sura 100 Aisha.
I will reformulate a little bit my question The challenge will focus on the five first verses of sura 100.
To Ayisha and all readers does everybody agree with the translation quoted by Ayisha ? I want to find someone who disagree with the translation quoted by Ayisha, wich is the traditional one, talking about fast gallopers or horses.
Peace to all,
Kamzo19
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Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to answer and share you're understanding of sura 100 Aisha.
I will reformulate a little bit my question The challenge will focus on the five first verses of sura 100.
To Ayisha and all readers does everybody agree with the translation quoted by Ayisha ? I want to find someone who disagree with the translation quoted by Ayisha, wich is the traditional one, talking about fast gallopers or horses.
Peace to all,
Kamzo19
Peace Kamzo. There are other translations as I said, including one that translates the first 5 verses as to do with the Harmattan winds, but whatever translation is used the message in it is clearly that Allah 'swears or declares by' whatever, be it horses, winds or batman, that man is ungrateful and doesnt think that one day he will meet Him. I dont think another 'meaning' for those 5 verses will take that 'message' away or distort it.
