Is Prophet Muhammad?s duty to deliver Quran only?: No

[Raaajah]

Guest

Do you then accept that Scripture and wisdom are separate things, when Allah says ?scripture and wisdom?? This is such a simple, clear, unambiguous sentence but unfortunately many do not get it.

Not many only few, dear Guest won't get it, may be they just don't want to get it.

Ayisha

Yes it takes wisdom to understand it as it should be, but Allah grants that wisdom to whom He pleases and YES the messangers all were granted wisdom, no one has said otherwise

It is Messengers. What take you so long to acknowledge, it was in one of my earlier post.

[WayFinder]

Peace,

Way Finder
How do you know? which Ayat tells you that this is for particular time, and other one is for future. i don't want to be harsh but you are just talking non sense.

Maybe you are hard of the ear but I will try again... Do we have a list of events which 'caused' the revelation of a particular verse?? The answer is NO. Therefore, it is not necessary for you to know the circumstances. Moreover, if you have a list of ALL THE CIRCUMSTANCES of revelation... Show it to us. Then we will take you seriously.

How do you know that the Ayat I am talking about was for that time only?

We know because we cannot apply them anymore.. For example there is a verse which forbid you to marry the prophet wife.. Or yet another verse to give a donation when you visit the prophet etc etc... All these cannot be done anymore. If you disagree, then share your thought.

Way Finder
Now you are cheating as well, you said if an ayat was revealed at # 2500, it was placed at the place as it had to be because Allah finalized the order, and Surah 75 is almost in middle of the present order, which was the order of Allah, according to you.

It is ok to accuse me when I am guilty.. but I would not like to be wrongly accused... Now let me clarify how it all started.

No... The quran was revealed in stages... according to the needs of the current audience of that time... However, as soon as the verse was revealed, its placement in the Book was revealed at the same time... That means, when the 2500th verse was revealed, its placement somewhere in some surah is also revealed with it.. for example the 2500th verse could find its proper place in the first 20 verses of the Book. It is always Allah who did the compilation and arrangement each time he revealed a verse.

Verse 7516-19

7516 Do not move your tongue with it to make haste.
7517 It is for Us to COMPILE/COLLECT (jam3ahu) it and relate it.
7518 So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation.
7519 Then it is for Us to clarify it.

Regarding verses of Surah 75

7516 Do not move your tongue with it to make haste.
7517 It is for Us to COMPILE/COLLECT (jam3ahu) it and relate it.
7518 So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation.
7519 Then it is for Us to clarify it.

According to your understanding these verses were not the last verses of Quran neither were they the earliest, if it is telling Messenger to hold his tongue as you are presuming then it makes no SENSE at all. (Wayfinder where do you get the RED idea? You fabricated it?)

This is your assumption.. I did not tell ANYTHING regarding the position of this verse as well as its revelation... this is beyond my knowledge.. as I told you... I have no idea which came first or which came last... Allah knows best... If He has not included the chronological index in the quran... then there is a DIVINE reason for this.

Now you are cheating as well, you said if an ayat was revealed at # 2500, it was placed at the place as it had to be because Allah finalized the order, and Surah 75 is almost in middle of the present order, which was the order of Allah, according to you.

Now just see how your understanding is deficient... Nowhere I have said anything about the placement of the verses of Surah 75 or the 2500th... Just scroll us and see the RED highlight... Don't you understand what an EXAMPLE is now? It was never a fact.. I just took a number at random to explain the revelation process... But however, I think you are way too smart to be able to grasp such a simple example and you took it as a FACT. This is what we call foolishness... Next time, take full time to read at least 10 times before posting anything.

You said this
Way Finder
and from me it is over now, until you don't explain the above.

I would not matter much with you either.. Dont get me wrong... Because your most recent post addressed to me is just another 'pick and choose' from you.. You do not address those which throw you on the wall.. You pretend not to see them... It would be futile to waste time argumentating with an opponent who is showing such clear dishonesty and prejudice.

Peace

[Ayisha]

Raaajah
Wayfinder

Grand Qur'aan must be read/recited in the order it has been sequenced and compiled by Allah through His Messenger for the posterity. Only by that sequence one will get the explanation of each and every word and statement and ultimately the wisdom. And this is how the knowledge is acquired from any book. For any word and concept, compile all statements in the sequence they are mentioned in Qur'aan, and one will comrehensively understand that word and concept.

Then why have YOU got references to other verses all over the place to MISLead a reader all over Quran for the LINKS to the verses you are 'translating? And why did YOU translate Sahibukum as Guiding Lord because somewhere else it said Muhammed was to guide?

[WayFinder]

Peace WayFinder,

Once you are guided you are good. Everything else is secondary!

One needs wisdom (must be acquired) to be guided. Think about it. You are not speaking coherently.

Peace

In case you are right... Then I would say that this wisdom cannot be transmitted from one person to another... And again... I always attach hikmah to its root meaning as well as other related words such as hukm(law),haakim(judge) etc which has to do with legislation... Therefore, Hikmah, if taken from your perspective could mean 'sound judgement' and this as I think it is, cannot be transmitted... But can be bestowed only from God.

[Ayisha]

Quote from Ayisha on Today at 020725 PM
No one has said anywhere that there is no wisdom outside the book!

Peace Ayisha,

Do you then accept that Scripture and wisdom are separate things, when Allah says ?scripture and wisdom?? This is such a simple, clear, unambiguous sentence but unfortunately many do not get it.
Allah grants wisdom to who He wills, so wisdom is all over the place and we can learn it but He also says the BOOK IS FULL OF IT and that all messengers had it, do you accept that the book is full of Wisdom?

Quote from Ayisha on Today at 020725 PM
The ones claiming this are the ones ignoring the verses that say the book is full of wisdom and that Allah has explained it.

This understanding contradicts the verse that says Allah is the teacher of the Quran
how? I agree He is the teacher of Quran, I agree he is the one that explains it in detail, I am not the one disagreeing with any of the verses.

Quote from Ayisha on Today at 020725 PM
Yes it takes wisdom to understand it as it should be, but Allah grants that wisdom to whom He pleases and YES the messangers all were granted wisdom, no one has said otherwise.

I agree.

Quote from Ayisha on Today at 020725 PM
Once one has the wisdom to understand the verses, does it change the verses in any way? Would an explanation of someone else be any better than the explanation of Allah? Of course not!

No, the verse does not change! Only your understanding of the verse changes i.e. you have correct understanding of the verse. There is no better, only correct or incorrect. Beware of the compromiser!

so WHERE is the explanation of the verses to give us a CORRECT understanding?

This is what Raj cannot answer, can you?

[Ayisha]

Message was revealed via a Messenger (and his name happened to be "Jabraeel&quot to Muhammad Peace is upon him,
yes I know that Raj. the messge was revealed through 2 messengers, Gabrielle and Muhammed.

if some one does not know this basic, she can only be Ayisha.

and if one cannot answer a simple question repeated countless times and cannot see his idiotic rantings, that one can only be raj

[Ayisha]

Ayisha
It is Messengers. What take you so long to acknowledge, it was in one of my earlier post.

No one has ever EVER debated that raj. Now will you answer my questions or run?

[Raaajah]

Ayisha

yes I know that Raj. the messge was revealed through 2 messengers, Gabrielle and Muhammed.

It is Message.

The Message was revealed to Muhammad by Allah Via Jabraeel. If you know this fact then what are you asking here

Allah says He is the one explaining it and collecting it and compiling it and you say "Allah did not came to earth to collect and compile it" so how was the message itself revealed Raj? through email perhaps? a few phone calls? How did this message GET here in the first place if Allah had nothing to do with it at all according to your ramblings? You think He sent a message then left it to be sorted by humans when He clearly says IN that message that it is up to HIM to explain it and compile it?

Whom you are trying to fool?

[Ayisha]

The Message was revealed to Muhammad by Allah Via Jabraeel. If you know this fact then what are you asking here

Quote
Allah says He is the one explaining it and collecting it and compiling it and you say "Allah did not came to earth to collect and compile it" so how was the message itself revealed Raj? through email perhaps? a few phone calls? How did this message GET here in the first place if Allah had nothing to do with it at all according to your ramblings? You think He sent a message then left it to be sorted by humans when He clearly says IN that message that it is up to HIM to explain it and compile it?

Whom you are trying to fool?

Not you Raj, of course not you, I was mistakenly thinking I was talkting to someone with half a brain, sorry

Simple steps

Allah sent the message
through Gabrielle
through Muhammed
to us

Allah put in His message WISDOM
Allah gave Muhammed WISDOM
Allah gave ALL prophets and messengers WISDOM
Allah gives people WISDOM
Allah says HE expains IT
Allah says He collects IT
Allah says IT if full of WISDOM
Allah says IT is COMPLETE
Allah says IT is FULLY DETAILED
and
Allah says its all there for those who THINK

and YOU tell me "Allah did not came to earth to collect and compile it"

who are you trying to fool?

Allah managed to get the message TO us so Allah is fully able to do as HE SAID and collect and compile it, or don't you think so?

[Mazhar]

Then why have YOU got references to other verses all over the place to MISLead a reader all over Quran for the LINKS to the verses you are 'translating? And why did YOU translate Sahibukum as Guiding Lord because somewhere else it said Muhammed was to guide?

Please read carefully what I have said, and you will find answer. Linkages are leading people to read and comprehensively understand the point.

Grand Qur'aan must be read/recited in the order it has been sequenced and compiled by Allah through His Messenger for the posterity. Only by that sequence one will get the explanation of each and every word and statement and ultimately the wisdom. And this is how the knowledge is acquired from any book. For any word and concept, compile all statements in the sequence they are mentioned in Qur'aan, and one will comrehensively understand that word and concept.

[Raaajah]

Way Finder

No... The quran was revealed in stages... according to the needs of the current audience of that time... However, as soon as the verse was revealed, its placement in the Book was revealed at the same time... That means, when the 2500th verse was revealed, its placement somewhere in some surah is also revealed with it.. for example the 2500th verse could find its proper place in the first 20 verses of the Book. It is always Allah who did the compilation and arrangement each time he revealed a verse.

I will make it simple for you and me

1. The Quran was revealed in stages
   Agreed
2. The verses were revealed according to needs of current audience of that time.
   No, not at all times.
3. At the time of revelation of the verse its placement in the Book was revealed.
   The Book took many many years to complete, therefore since it was not completed, there were questions regarding the verses and the Messenger of Allah who was provided the Wisdom from Allah explained those verses to audience.
   For example the name "Rehman" was not familiar to Arabs, Messenger of Allah explained to them who is Ar-Rehman.

From your above statement
Surah 75 is in exact place where it has to be, 74 Surah's before it and 39 after it, according to Allah,
Now Allah tells Muhammad peace is upon him half the way that he should not explain any thing and Allah will do that on his own.

Now if you agree that there was a mechanism for that, then you obviously believe that It was Wisdom provided to the Messengers as mentioned in various posts of mine, through which they explained the Ayats of Allah to the audience.

Way Finder

Therefore, it is not necessary for you to know the circumstances.

This is very poor reasoning.
If some one tells you "Ayisha had a black eye" what will you understand from this if you will not know the circumstances. And we are talking about a Book that is to change our lives.

Therefore I mentioned a verse to you at random from Quran, which you have conveniently ignored for repeated of times, to tell me what is the purpose of the Ayat without knowing its circumstances.

You like Ayisha think that some of the Quran is of no use today and was for the past,
so why not remove those verses, they are of no use now.

I pick and chose from your posts because we don't want to go in circles, right? it is not thing of a kind that you put me to wall or whatever.
In fact You keep on denying simple fact that Allah gives Wisdom to his Messengers and people he chooses.

Yu/tee alhikmata man yashao waman yu/ta alhikmata faqad ootiya khayran katheeran wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi

He bestows wisdom upon whomever He chooses, and whoever attains wisdom, has attained a great bounty. Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

There is no Al-Kitab here.

Praise be to Allah the Lord of Abraham, Ram, Musa, Issa, Muhammad, mine and Yours.

[Ayisha]

Please read carefully what I have said, and you will find answer. Linkages are leading people to read and comprehensively understand the point.

"Grand Qur'aan must be read/recited in the order it has been sequenced and compiled by Allah through His Messenger for the posterity. Only by that sequence one will get the explanation of each and every word and statement and ultimately the wisdom. And this is how the knowledge is acquired from any book. For any word and concept, compile all statements in the sequence they are mentioned in Qur'aan, and one will comrehensively understand that word and concept."

You read Mazhar, you contradict

[Ayisha]

Therefore I mentioned a verse to you randomly, which you have conveniently ignored for repeated times,

rotfl

[Raaajah]

Ayisha

Allah managed to get the message TO us so Allah is fully able to do as HE SAID and collect and compile it, or don't you think so?

I think you are just trying to play now, otherwise it is quite obvious that your argument is erroneous.

Einstein presented the "special theory of relativity"

Einstein was bestowed with wisdom from Allah. Allah did not came to earth and sat with Einstein and taught him.
He bestowed him with wisdom according to following Ayat

2169
Yu/tee alhikmata man yashao waman yu/ta alhikmata faqad ootiya khayran katheeran wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi

He bestows wisdom upon whomever He chooses, and whoever attains wisdom, has attained a great bounty. Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

[Raaajah]

Ayisha

Quote from Raaajah on Today at 064102 PM
Therefore I mentioned a verse to you randomly, which you have conveniently ignored for repeated times,
rotfl

Yes that is best you can do.
I being a non native English speaker can commit mistakes, but if a non native speakers points out spelling and other mistakes of a native speaker, It is shame for her specially when he or she tries to degrade others, not on the basis of arguments but English elektro.

[Ayisha]

Ayisha
I think you are just trying to play now, otherwise it is quite obvious that your argument is erroneous.

Einstein presented the "special theory of relativity"

Einstein was bestowed with wisdom from Allah. Allah did not came to earth and sat with Einstein and taught him.
He bestowed him with wisdom according to following Ayat

2169
Yu/tee alhikmata man yashao waman yu/ta alhikmata faqad ootiya khayran katheeran wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi

He bestows wisdom upon whomever He chooses, and whoever attains wisdom, has attained a great bounty. Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

If you look you will see that is what I have been saying raj, its YOU that says Allah did NOT compile it, not me, I KNOW He compiled it because HE SAID SO. YOU don't believe that and think humans did it.

Raj It says to Messenger Allah is the one responsible for collecting and compiling the Quran, and every one knows that Allah did not came to earth to collect and compile it, Companions of Messenger and the Messenger did it,

this is YOU denying what allah said

[Ayisha]

Ayisha
Yes that is best you can do.
I being a non native English speaker can commit mistakes, but if a non native speakers points out spelling and other mistakes of a native speaker, It is shame for her specially when he or she tries to degrade others, not on the basis of arguments but English elektro.

And again you have either

a) completely misunderstood, again
or
b) avoided the meaning, again

I was laughing at YOU complaining that someone had not answered a question you had asked repeatedly, YOU of all people that keeps on and STILL has not answered my questions!

rotfl

[Raaajah]

Ayisha

Not you Raj, of course not you, I was mistakenly thinking I was talkting to someone with half a brain, sorry

What is this word talkting, No dictionary responds to this.

Ayisha

If you look you will see that is what I have been saying raj, its YOU that says Allah did NOT compile it, not me, I KNOW He compiled it because HE SAID SO. YOU don't believe that and think humans did it

If you agree with this, then where is the problem? it becomes very clear that Al-Hikmah and Al-Kitab are two different things, and that is what Guest, Siki and I am are saying. Allah has given Wisdom to different people including all the Messengers to explain the things in his book, on Authority of Allah. Remember Allah says Messenger says nothing of himself...

[Ayisha]

Ayisha
What is this word talkting, No dictionary responds to this.
Apparently my speed is improving, unfortunately my spelling is suffering '(

AyishaIf you look you will see that is what I have been saying raj, its YOU that says Allah did NOT compile it, not me, I KNOW He compiled it because HE SAID SO. YOU don't believe that and think humans did it

If you agree with this, then where is the problem? it becomes very clear that Al-Hikmah and Al-Kitab are two different things, and that is what Guest, Siki and I am are saying. Allah has given Wisdom to different people including all the Messengers to explain the things in his book, on Authority of Allah. Remember Allah says Messenger says nothing of himself...

Agree with what? that humans compiled it? no I dont as Allah said HE will.

Hikmah is IN Al-kitab, it is full of it. the problem started when wayfinder quite rightly pointed out the verse that says 'with IT' to show that the Book and Wisdom are one in that regard, as in full of Wisdom and thats when things started being totally misunderstood. You asked before that what is this wisdom and how can others attain that wisdom. After wayfinder posted the verse you then went on a hunt for other verses in what looked like an attempt to prove his verse wrong ??? that is when I asked you the simple question "What do you think Al Hikmah is Raj?" to which you replied let us see what finder has to say and as yet have still refused to answer that question.

[WayFinder]

Peace,

First note... You conveniently manage to disregard the false accusation you made against me (cheating) due to you misunderstanding... So, more pic and choose... Not strange when it comes from you.

Way Finder
I will make it simple for you and me

1. The Quran was revealed in stages
   Agreed

Yes.. I agree and never opposed this idea.

2. The verses were revealed according to needs of current audience of that time.
   No, not at all times.

Agreed.. I never said it was true for all the verses but most of them was as such.

3. At the time of revelation of the verse its placement in the Book was revealed.

This is what I said and understand it as such

The Book took many many years to complete, therefore since it was not completed, there were questions regarding the verses and the Messenger of Allah who was provided the Wisdom from Allah explained those verses to audience.

Where do you get that? When questions were brought to the Messenger, it was God who provide the explanations... Hence we see many verses ending with ...

Other verses starting with

This is how the explanation was brought to the audience... Again, you are totally disregarding my post on perception in which I have explained this. And you dare cry for circular argument! It is just you who is pushing the circular argument all the time. Otherwise, why would I need to repeat myself on and on

For example the name "Rehman" was not familiar to Arabs, Messenger of Allah explained to them who is Ar-Rehman.

Did you just invented this? Why do you make such baseless claims... Ar-Rahmaan as a name existed from pre-islamic times... it is even ENGRAVED in stone in an inscription known as the inscription of Abraha... Do your research before making claims. I will see whether you would be blind on this one in your next reply to me.

From your above statement
Surah 75 is in exact place where it has to be, 74 Surah's before it and 39 after it, according to Allah,
Now Allah tells Muhammad peace is upon him half the way that he should not explain any thing and Allah will do that on his own.

How do you know it was 'half the way'? Believe me, either you are not understanding anything from what I told you or you are pretending not to understand... I told you several times, I have no idea when the verse was revealed and no one does either.

Now if you agree that there was a mechanism for that, then you obviously believe that It was Wisdom provided to the Messengers as mentioned in various posts of mine, through which they explained the Ayats of Allah to the audience.

No.. I already gave you the proper verses regarding the mechanism.. The same mechanism which those who did not believe fail to comprehend/understand. You are talking about explanation again.. so please refer back to my post on perception.. it will solve your riddle.

Way Finder
This is very poor reasoning.
If some one tells you "Ayisha had a black eye" what will you understand from this if you will not know the circumstances. And we are talking about a Book that is to change our lives.

I convenient gave you clear examples of these verses regarding wives of prophet etc...which you of course... DID NOT SEE.

Well, let me just use same methodology as you did.. Let us look at Surah 10(Yunus)... If you are so CONFIDENT that we NEED what GOD did not record in his Book... then please give me the reason of revelation for the first 20 verses of Surah 10.. Would like to get that from you... Again, I picked this surah at random. Let's see how honest you are in your claims.

Therefore I mentioned a verse to you at random from Quran, which you have conveniently ignored for repeated of times, to tell me what is the purpose of the Ayat without knowing its circumstances.

I do not have to do that because I DO NOT DEPEND/NEED the context of revelation as YOU.. Since it is you who need this... You should be able to explain the above.

You like Ayisha think that some of the Quran is of no use today and was for the past,
so why not remove those verses, they are of no use now.

Ok.. then tell me how the verse of not marrying the wives of the prophet applies today... unless you do this.. we cannot talk any further.

I pick and chose from your posts because we don't want to go in circles, right? it is not thing of a kind that you put me to wall or whatever.
In fact You keep on denying simple fact that Allah gives Wisdom to his Messengers and people he chooses.

I would hope this was true... but we all know why you pick and choose.. so you do not have to explain yourself... Infact it is this pick and choose itself which is the reason behind the circular arguments. Had you taken time to consider what has been presented to you.. You would not be be constantly pushing the very same thing on and on.

Yu/tee alhikmata man yashao waman yu/ta alhikmata faqad ootiya khayran katheeran wama yaththakkaru illa oloo al-albabi

He bestows wisdom upon whomever He chooses, and whoever attains wisdom, has attained a great bounty. Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.
There is no Al-Kitab here.

And there is no hadiths/sunnah either... Moreover, that does not mean each believer will get his own sunnah to be followed for the later generation...

Praise be to Allah the Lord of Abraham, Ram, Musa, Issa, Muhammad, mine and Yours.

Praise be to God.

Peace