There is No God.

unknownuser

Peace Abdun Nur

I agree with you on the following things

That Allah is not a he or a she. And that Allah should not be personificated.
That worship is not a part of islam. We should obey the orders and follow the laws of Allah, and serve him.
That we should not base our deen on faith, but base it on firm belief established through reason.
That there is no religion. islam is the natural and timeless system of mankind.
That rituals are not a part of islam. Ritual prayer (worship) is not from the Quran.
That we will be judged upon our physical actions. I also think we will be judged upon our words and attitude.
That Allah is everywhere, and knows everything. Allah is not only in the sky.
That Allah is eternal. Allah has always existed and will always exist.
That much of conventional physics is wrong. Conventional physics separate things, but the universe is in unity.
That traditional islam is based on christianity, judaism and zoroastrianism. Also based on culture and ideologies.
That the only sovereign is Allah. No human being should control or rule another human being.

However, i don't think it is wrong to use the word God when you speak about Allah. As you know, christians and jews are not familiar with the word Allah. If you want to invite them to your system (not religion), and convince them, then you have to speak in a language which they understand. The word Allah is alien to them. The word Allah is arabic and therefore it might be hard for them to relate to what Allah is. Therefore by saying the word God to them, it will be easier for them to understand what we say. And it will be easier for us to convey a message to them.

When it comes to what i said above, let me give you an example. A spanish employer in a new grocery store in england gets a call from an english person that wants to know what kind of fruit he sells in his store. He wants to buy fruit. The employer tells the person that they sell Uvas (which is the spanish word for grapes). But the person can not speak the spanish language and do not understand it, so he gets confused. He says to the employer What is Uvas? The employer says Uvas are a type of green fruit. But i don't know what the english word for Uvas is. The person says Well, if it is green, it is probably apples. Well sir, i don't need any apples, i have an apple tree in my own garden. Have a nice day sir, bye. Moral of the story Speak in a language that most people understand. The employer lost a potential customer because he could not convey his message to the english person.

As we can see from the example above, if someone wants to sell something, they should speak in a language which is familiar to the people. So if someone wants to sell something, whether it be a fruit and idea or anything else, they should speak in a language which is understandable to most people. If think if we only use the arabic word Allah when you talk about islam, it would seem foreign to most people that are christians, jews, or from other religions and ideologies. If we want to convince people or convey a message to people, we have to speak in the language of the people, or in a language which they understand if you will. I off course think the ideal way would be to call our creator only Allah. But most people do not relate to this. If everyone spoke arabic or knew arabic, then using the word Allah, would be the most ideal thing to do.

Here is another example A man works for a store. The man knows that the boss is the owner of the store, and he knows that he has to follow the ethical laws of the store. As long as the man follows the laws of the store by being serviceminded (helping the customers), keeping the store clean and selling the products, then the boss will be happy, the customers will be happy, the man will be happy, and the store will earn a lots of money. Let's say that the name of the boss is Joe. What if the man one day suddenly calls his boss by his name, what if he suddenly calls him Joe instead of boss? What will happen then? Nothing will happen as long as he follows the laws of the boss and do not disobey anything. A word is just a word, and does not change anything. The concept linked to a word however can change everything. So the word is no problem if the concept is not changed. As long as the man knows who the boss is, follows the laws of the store, and has a right understanding of the concepts, a word means nothing. If however, the man links the word Joe to a friend or a person which is not a boss, then problems will arise. Whether the man calls his boss,boss, or calls his boss "Joe", the boss will still be the boss of the store.

Here is another example As we know, many people call their boat a she. They say My boat is such a beauty, she is so beautiful. But they know that the boat has no gender, they know that the boat is not a she. They know that the boat is just an "it". But still they call their boat a she. You can also call the boat a tiger. But the word tiger does not change the reality of what a boat is. A boat is an object which floates on water. The object is made of tree or other materials. A tiger however, is not an inamitate object. A tiger is an animal, it is alive, it breaths and it moves by itself. Some people also call the earth mother earth, but they know that the earth can not be a mother. A mother is someone who gives birth to something but the earth does not give birth to anything. As we can see, these words are just words and are not connected to reality. It is the concept people link to words that should not be linked to the words. By other words, the words are not the problem, the concepts linked to the words are a problem. So as we can see there is a difference between a word and the concept linked to the word.

Allah tells us in the Quran that we can call Allah by beautiful names

Quran 7180
And to God belong the beautiful names, so call Him by them; and ignore those who blaspheme in His names. They will be punished for what they used to do.

As we can see from the first verse above, we can call Allah by the beautiful names (different words). In Quran, Allah is described with different words. Below are some of the words Allah is described with in the Quran

Sustainer (maintains life and provides everything needed).
Master (the only master we should have).
Creator (of the heavens and the earth and everything between it).
Initiator.
Designer.
Almighty.
The unseen

From my study of the Quran, if Allah is called God by us, there is nothing wrong with that as long as our understanding of Allah is based only on the Quran, reason, truth and science.

I am also a strong supporter of reason and science. However, if we see science from a realistic perspective, we will see that science has its limitations. Here are some of the things science can not explain or do

Science can not create life (see 22.73). Scientists have not been able to even create a living cell.
Science can not find all natural laws, like the ones which can not be observed.
Science can not tell people what happens to them when they die . Or after they are dead.
Science can not make anything grow. Science can not make a tree grow. It requires energy. Allah makes trees grow.
Science can not understand the mind. We can not measure something which can not be seen.
Science can not tell us what is moral and not moral. To know what is moral and not moral we need revelation.
Science can not explain spiritual experiences.

Science is in fact anti-intellectual. It mistrust common sense and demands presentation of the objective truth

H.L Mencken

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Albert Einstein

Science can only ascertain what is, but not what should be, and outside of its domain value judgments of all kinds remain necessary - Albert Einstein

The only way to reconcile science and religion is to set up something which is not science and something that is not religion. - H. L. Mencken

I have read parts of the works of Ahmed hulusi and seen some of his videos. It seems that some of your ideas are similar to him. I think some of the ideas of Ahmed hulusi are interesting. But most of his ideas are not new. Other authors before him, like for instance G.A parwez had similar views about islam.

I agree with you that we have to search knowledge constantly. However, we also need to focus on our relations. It is important that we are patient, humble, and respect people (even if they do not respect us). If someone make some fire and we make fire to stop their fire, we will not solve any problem. We should fight fire with water. Through powerful arguments, those who do not like our ideas, will see that we are telling them the facts. And they will see that we are speaking the truth. "Facts never lie".

unknownuser

Beautiful post David_K.

The limitations of science come from the limitations of humanity, keep that in mind. What is science? Science is merely a process where you cast Truth against falsehood and the falsehood innately disappears .

The scientific method is simple

1.) Create a situation
2.) Observe the results
3.) Create a situation again, using what you have learnt - back to step 1 we go!

Suppose you have infinite energy and infinite time at your disposal and you wanted to do some science. You start off with 1 block of energy, the whole infinite shebang in all its glory. You decide that One block is fairly useless for the purpose of science; there is nothing to compare against it . So you split it into two and you write down in your lab-book that at t=0, there was 1 unit of energy and at t=1, there were 2 units and you split it by however so. You also discover in this process that if you let these individual blocks of energy do their thing, they make some crazy patterns, and the subtleties of each pattern cause even more subtleties in what is to come.

So you keep doing this process and eventually you observe that if you shape a shitload of blocks of energy in a certain way, they are what you call "alive". You write this down in your log book. A good student of science must "keep the number of all things" in his log book to get a "good result".

Eventually at some point into the experiment the observer decides logically that "if my experiment is alive then it can do this for me, all I have to do is guide it along the right path".

asubmitter

Salaam asubmitter,

if you can prove the existence of a God please present your evidence, as I have in proving Allah, use the universe to establish the truth as the Qur'an suggests, otherwise shut up, as you have nothing to say, become a Roman Catholic if you wish to worship and adore a God in the sky, they have cornered the market in religious dogma and blind obedience.

I never questioned "what is God" or what is Allah, because coming from a more austere family, similar to Rashad's, I was brought up as a Sunni Muslim, and the traditional understanding based upon al-Ashari's aqeeda dating 12th century, we understand God by His attributes, His names, and we dare not try to define Him as matter or a substance, but then we came upon the challenge of the Mutazalites who questioned the anthropomorphic nature of God, and this has confused many but some have rendered it to mean God is Living, God is the creator of man, and uses terms which seem to describe God as human. We understand no vision encompasses Him, but He encompasses all visions, (6103). I do not think physically, through the eyes one can envision God, because God transcends time, and cannot be manifest within the present moment.

Like I said we never questioned what is God, instead like I have realised God has three attributes, Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. He knows the future, He has power over the present, and He has wisdom of the past. Mind is fluid, body is solid and soul is gaseous.

Like Khalil mentioned, science is just one aspect, there are conventionally known 3 sciences, which again link with mind, body and soul. The second aspect, body, links with the 3 arts, music,art, and writing, which link with the three tenses of time, future, how one needs to have a futuristic mind to be able to play in an orchestra or band or instrument, art is beholding something from nothing in the present moment, the picture you take is in the present moment. And writing, is an art also, but links to the past, to wisdom, and to the soul, and truth. Enlightening music, good picture, truthful writing. And finally the last of the four threes the three classics, philosophy, what one knows, linguistics, what one observes, and history, what one learns. Anyway below is what Khalil had to say

SCIENCE is not able to prove anything outside of matter. We only can LOGICALLY and through PHILOSOPHICAL arguments conclude that there MUST be a SUPERNATURAL CAUSE behind the existence of the MATERIAL WORLD, and by definition We call it GOD. BTW, take a look at the link below and see what you think.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600440.msg247806#msg247806

Peace,
Khalil

Philosophical arguments prove that God exist, the question 'could God create a rock He could not carry', to this we respond God is the Omniscient, knows the future, the Omnipotent, has power over the present, and Omnipresent, has wisdom of the past. Because the response to this question is what is it about the rock, its size, its weight, or its pressure. Another way of looking at it to make straight what seems crooked would be to say God cannot be quantified, but the rock can through its size, weight and pressure. Size is limitless, weight is infinite, pressure is free.
Hear No, See No, Speek No,
water, earth, air
Do No
Fire

I've have been sent to be the all three, the one to look at the threes, like fire cannot be any type of matter, but a combination of all three, or one and two, two and three, or one and three.

Glory be to God

peace

A Submitter

Halil

I think i'd rather jump off the nearest bridge than live in a world without God. Nothing in my life gives me more comfort and purpose than God, who is my Lord and also your Lord, Abdun Nur. Your belief for your own, and mine for me, of course. But there's really a lot you can tell from the way a person argues. With that said, if i have understood everything having been said so far correctly, i must say, what a happy ignorant sheep i am.

God is great.

Abdun_Nur

Salaam OPF,

Sorry for the slow reply, you state Allah means ?The God?, I contest this translation, on two foundations, linguistically and conceptually. ?There is NO God.? this is the first statement you must accept to be a Muslim, ?Only Allah.? is the second, you contest the first statement as true, I do not.

Allah is as you say the only everything in existence, nothing else exists, but Allah is not physical, this confuses many people, you must consider the nature of Allah, the single consciousness, this is a dichotomy between pure nothingness and the thought of all reality. All existence is manifest, meaning generated and given substance, instant to instant through pure imaginative thought, this conscious thought is Allah, so just as you can think and imagine, every reality is made existent, so through the single consciousness it becomes manifest, this demonstrates Allah is not the thought, which would be the physical universe in our perception, but the generator of the thought, while still being the thought itself.

As for conventional physics, as I have pointed out, this does not match the physical evidence. You should consider the universe from its underlying structures, not the confusions of conventional physics, which have been propagated to mislead and hide the true nature of reality. The simple structure of this physical reality takes its nature from the structure of the overarching reality, I have attempted to explain this on my website, in the essay transfinite consciousness.

Salaam Khalil,

You think religions are based in the real world, they have their worshippers running in circles, stoning pillars, praying to a building, draining their efforts in praying five times a day without benefit, subjugating communities to dogma, idolising prophets and fictional conversations so not following their original advice, more interested in building a mosque than building a community, etc.

As for the laws of physics as advertised by the establishment, they demonstrate little truth to the physical evidence, the laws of thermodynamics for example were taken from the early stream engine builders, who created a simple set of rules to follow, to design steam engines, in the nature of reality the opposite of these rules is demonstrated.

The first law for example should be energy cannot be contained within a closed system, all energy models are open energy exchanges between the physical and the fluidic manifold.

You state you have blind faith, a Christian concept, Islam demands you prove every ayah to yourself before accepting it as true, you have nothing if you have faith, firm belief is the goal of a Muslim.

You state as a fact the word God is the same as the word Allah, why if this is the case is there any need at all for the statement ?There is No God.?, why not just have ?Only Allah.?, why have a statement at all this being the case, I?m sure you think you follow the same God as the Christians and Jews, when this a ridiculous assumption if you were truly a Muslim. Firstly the sky God of the Christians is both a personification, as they think God was and is a Man, and secondly they divide there sky God into three parts. The Jews have a sky God that only values them, giving no worth to any genetic group or culture beyond theirs. Both the sky Gods of the Jews and Christians are through the evidence of history death cults, they are attempting to shape Islam into a similar organisation, the first step is to make Allah a sky God.

Salaam David K,

Your analogy would be fine if indeed the green fruits were identical, but as I have explained at length they are not the same at all, beyond a single aspect, both Allah and the God concept are expressed as the creator, but if you consider a car and a boat the same because they both transport people we could agree.

A word is just a word again is not true, we are not talking of a name, as Allah is not a name, we are talking of the concept held as a word, God has a conceptual meaning, and Allah has a different conceptual meaning, the too in many aspects stand in direct opposition, how can this be equivalent.

You say the Qur?an never tell us to use Allah or God but to sight the attributes of Allah in reference to this emanating thought, yet you think this supports God as a name, why, it rejects God as a name, a concept, or a belief, throughout the Qur?an.

.As we can see from the first verse above, we can call Allah by the beautiful names (different words). In Quran, Allah is described with different words. Below are some of the words Allah is described with in the Quran

Science is not all encompassing, I never stated it was, but it has application only upon the physical evidence, not abstract mathematical constructs.

asubmitter

Salaam,

These days and before innovations have come and gone, but not all that glitters is gold.

Alen

Peace,
Respect.

A guy I know gave an example.
Let's say you return home one day and discover that all your stuff from your home has been stolen. You notice that it has been broken in and the hosue is now empty. Even the carpet and the light bulbs are gone.

You go to the police and report the crime, yes?
What do you say?
Someone has broken into my home and stolen literally everything.
Or,
do you say no one has broken into my home and stolen everything?

If God does not exist, then what causes rain to fall, rivers not to climb, what causes blood to stay in arteries and not to come out of the mouth, why can't trees just grow in the firlds or those in existance die out? What caused Titanic to hit the iceberg?

Cause and effect is very important.
This life and Earth and all we know, is simply too organised and clearly controlled by someone or something and therefore can't be a mere coincidence, it can't be a chance. There is always a cause for everything and if we choose to research it, we might discover what we're looking for, God knows best.

Glory be to God.

Peace. sun

savage_carrot

If God does not exist, then what causes rain to fall, rivers not to climb, what causes blood to stay in arteries and not to come out of the mouth, why can't trees just grow in the firlds or those in existance die out? What caused Titanic to hit the iceberg?
I'd make some additions of my own too, just to add to the theme Why do mosquitoes exist? What made us pluck our eyebrows? Why can't the sky just be apple green?

Cause and effect is indeed important. The best part is pondering over the causes of certain effects personally.

Abdun_Nur

Salaam Alen and S.C,

obviously you have not read this thread and just responded on the title of the thread, this is evident from the ridiculous statements and examples you have sited. I am saying there is No God because there is no God, there is only Allah a completely different concept to that of a God.

savage_carrot

I don't usually read your posts AN. I was responding to Alen's cited statements and examples. Hope that helps. Salaam.

Abdun_Nur

Salaam S.C,

yes that helps, you respond to simple thoughts of the majority views and do not investigate, or examine any alternative understands, if you struggle to read this, as its from AN, and may upset your entrenched thought patterns, I will try to ignore your responses in future now I realize they are not in reply to the thread, being just knee jerk reactions, thoughtless and without substance, from simple stimulus.

savage_carrot

I tend to respond to simple thoughts, yes

Raaajah

Abdun Nur

I will try to ignore your responses in future now I realize they are not in reply to the thread, being just knee jerk reactions, thoughtless and without substance, from simple stimulus.

Though i disagree with most of what you say, But on this one you have my vote with you.

savage-carrot

I don't usually read your posts AN

Rude, Arrogant, abrupt,blunt,uncouth reply. I still needed more adjectives to define this post, I have to improve my English.

Abdun Nur

I am saying there is No God because there is no God, there is only Allah a completely different concept to that of a God.

That is why I try to use Allah in my posts.

Alen

Salaam Alen and S.C,

obviously you have not read this thread and just responded on the title of the thread, this is evident from the ridiculous statements and examples you have sited. I am saying there is No God because there is no God, there is only Allah a completely different concept to that of a God.

Peace,
Respect.

How do you say God in Arabic?
In Slovene we say Bog.
In Bosnia we say Bog.
Same in Croatian and Serbian languages, just a little different accents.
In German theys ay Gott.

Read The Qr'an and ponder over the verses, bro.
I'll read the article when time permits, God willing,
I got this ne wjob, today was my 3rd day and I don't wanna mess it up.

Peace.

asubmitter

You are a Satanist, a BNP agent,and servant of the light, means you are awhite supremacist! Devil worshipper, do not use Arabic words to describe your self, when you do not even recognise the absolute God, and come to be First Cause, in corruption, well like the Masons are finding, and the evolutionist, First Cause always fails, just as Adam was duped to think a particular could lead to the tree of eternity and unending kingship. You Abdun Nur, servant of the light, a BNP agent and serve Satan, failed.

Abdun_Nur

Salaam asubmitter,

I'm a Satanist?

A branch of Roman Catholic dogma I believe you are referring to; a belief that there is a personified male human in the sky who is a God, he sits in a big chair, and has a white beard, and he has a son to a women he met in a small desert town some years back.

He had a servant who got jealous of his job a long time ago, he punished him by giving him a nice warm kingdom to rule over with his own servants, the Roman Catholic dogma continues under their logic that if you do not accept this narrative as absolutely true you will be forced to be subjugated to the cast out servants kingdom, where the personified God has no power.

So a Satanist is a Roman Catholic who cannot be a good person, so they decide if they are going to have to spend time in the kingdom of the cast out servant, then they are best off making him as happy as they can in this life, so getting ingratiated with the boss early on.

Further under Roman Catholic dogma, this personified God in the sky will one day forgive the erring servant and allow him to return to the kingdom of the personified God, when this occurs all the servants of the original cast out servant will also be allowed to enter the kingdom of the personified God.

This dogma doesn't sound like something I'd believe, are you certain you have verified your sources and established your facts correctly asubmitter?

I'm a BNP agent?

well I have no recollection of joining, let alone being employed by them as an agent, I know the British National Party stands for sovereignty, state and racial purity, while I espouse no sovereign of any sort, as Allah is the Only sovereign, all states stand in direct opposition to common law, so we conflict there also, and I'm also a cosmopolite. Are you certain you have verified your sources and got your facts correct asubmitter, to accuse falsely is a crime when you are a Muslim, I wouldn't want you to be viewed as a slanderer, lier, backbiter and muck spreader if you have the evidence to support you accusations?

I'm a white supremacist?

A belief that white people are superior to people of other ethnic backgrounds, I don't remember expressing that view, are you certain I did that? Could you refresh my memory asubmitter, when and where and to whom?

I'm a Devil worshipper?

Strange I have a strong belief that worship is nothing to do with Islam, I believe you should not worship worldly sovereigns, I believe you should not worship anything, yet you think I'm off worshipping these Devils of the Christian dogma, again I'm puzzled as to where you have found such evidence, the facts you are expressing seem to be against every memory I possess, why is that asubmitter?

Are you certain you are a Muslim asubmitter, you seem to be demonstrating characteristics that no Muslim, by anyones definition, should possess, or are you a Christian, Jew or Zoroastrian?

salgan

Peace Asubmitter

You have made some serious allegations against Abdul Noor, as you seem to be a very devout Religious Muslim, I believe you will be able to provide hard core evidence against Abdul Noor.If not I believe you are big and strong enough to eat humble pie and apologize to Abdul Noor .

Peace Salim

asubmitter

I do not see it in terms of Catholicism, hypocrisy, lies and ignorance, are not the path of God, the straight path means the denunciation of the devil, and the upholding of God's commandments. Catholicism doesn't have sole rights to religion, remember there are 3 branches of Semitic religions. If we have the old and new, what is the third? Final or last? And we find Dr. Rashad Khalifa's translation of the Quran to be named 'The Final Testament'.

Everything is in accordance with God's will. God controls everything. It could possibly be before its time if you are so intelligent white man, why did not see this, nor could you take rights to the book 3 by A Submitter. You think you are so fast, rich and clever, you will lose all three rulership, ownership and control. The Headmaster, the GP, the Professor.

Satanists are those who think there is a temporal thing or a causality in God's creation which will lead to the overcoming God's innocent will of peace. or the destruction of the system of God, or the seduction of God to lies or deception. This is the enticement of Satan, and you see it clearly with their pyramid and all-seeing eye, and their belief in war, their game of chess to take it piece by piece, when there is 666 behind their side, this is the white man quest, to conquer the mind, through years and years of subjugation, to enslave, this is the agenda of Satanists. But submitters wish to redeem their souls.

On one hand there are those who say God is incompetent, as everything becomes an attachment to the person rather than a belonging of God, a test through which God knows those who are appreciative and those who are unappreciative. Those who seek God, and those who do not seek God but expect God to seek them. Forgetting God is in no need of anyone, if you appreciative it is for your own good.

On the other hand, there are those who think God is ,audhubillah for me saying this, evil, thinking there is a real evil in his creation, real evil is only in movies and books. And in history it comes from humans, Hitler is regarded as evil, when he was actually of Jewish descent and there were Jews with in the Nazi army, not saying innocent people did not die in the Holocaust, but saying evil was engineered, so too it was with 9-11, or whenever people claimed evil was real, like the tsunamis, earthquakes and floods and hurricanes, thank the corrupt America for those with their weather weapons.

You got an one track mind, due to your infant teachings about Church and Catholicism, which you use as your weapon whenever some one gets close to uncovering your true identity.

What do you think of the following verse then...

(573)There is no god except the one god.

Don't think you know the Quran better than a native, and someone with a PHD, and last but not least verifiably a messenger of God, Dr. Khalifa.

Everything comes from God.

To God belongs all praise, the Lord of the heavens, the Lord of the earth, the Lord of the universe.

While you are busy with your hierarchies, don't forget the dark horse.

And not to forget the third exclamation waged against God, that He is ,audhubillah for saying this, a liar. The Muhammadans, ask questions such as, "can God tell a lie?" or "is Satan's knowledge greater than Muhammad's?" You know things by these question, God exposed their corruption of the Quran, and even though they will go to the resurrection and say God is a liar, due to not realising the Quran was changed but God did not do anything, and his words there is no doubt, were proven wrong. Is corruption eternal, they have been exposed. And it has backfired upon them.

You Abdun Nur, are a devil. I chose my words carefully in case it backfires on me, but for saying the Quran actually implies there is no god, it just B.S. Don't forget the dark horse... as you quest for a hierarchy for the white man?s sake!

Abdun_Nur

Salaam asubmitter,

in your religious verve you have committed a second Islamic crime, besides your first accountable crimes which you again repeat, of accusing falsely, slander and malicious lies, that of being a racist, you have so many character flaws its a good thing you can hide under the facade of a religious fanatic, I hope you escape the deep scars you seem to suffer and attempt to inflict upon those around you, I suspect you make those around you suffer, with such hatred within a person as you display its verging on a medical condition.

san

congrats on the peaceful exchange