Is God objectifying women?
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I just twisted your question according to the verse. I guess we all see what we want to see.
I believe I did a pretty good job explaining my question. I am not sure what you did by twisting? I am not blaming ANYTHING ON GOD. This was a question I was posed by a non Muslim.
Did you read my post?
Yeah, did you read it yourself? roll
I guess I'll just wait for others to respond wink
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Peace,
I believe I did a pretty good job explaining my question. I am not sure what you did by twisting? I am not blaming ANYTHING ON GOD. This was a question I was posed by a non Muslim.
Zenje was trying to show you that anything can be objectified, not just women...anything can be an object that can lead you astray.
Just a question, which objects in life are commonly known to lead, er, let's say, men astray from the righteous principles?
Money? Children? Power? Lust for life/women?? wink
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Peace be upon you savage_carrot,
Thanks for that reply.
Just a question, which objects in life are commonly known to lead, er, let's say, men astray from the righteous principles?
Money? Children? Power? Lust for life/women??
You are right, power, children, money and women are all things men lust over.
But my question was why were women included among material things on this earthly life? (Not mine actually a person asked me this who is studying the Koran).
Thank you,
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Peace *
The verse reads 'adorned for people are the worldly pleasures'...this to me means that all this lust for possession etc is a worldy pleasure...and also the 'objects' mentioned are the commonest things that lead most astray from the righteous path, thru ages...if you've seen troy, and godfather/scarface etc etc...God didn't have to mention every single thing that would lead you astray did He? He just mentioned the most common ones and using our perception, we see what He is saying to us...
I hope i helped you somewhat..
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Peace Anonymous,
Check this out
QXP 314 Beautiful for mankind is love of the joys that come from women and children, and heaps of gold and silver, and branded horses, and cattle and well-tilled land. That is comfort of the life of the world. Allah! With Him is a more excellent abode.A quick cross-reference reveled the following
...These are the enjoyment of the world
...This is the provision of the life of this world
...Such are the possessions of this world's life
...That is comfort of the life of the world.
...These things are attractive.Besides Yusuf Ali's translation (which is usually the worst in my opinion), I see no problem with understanding that women can be equated with the terms comfort, enjoyment, provision, or attractive, as men can be seen in the eyes of women.
I would look into the Arabic word that is translated as "materials". Perhaps one of our humble scholars will save you the legwork.
Peace,
Tay -
peace, Tay
Peace Anonymous,
Check this out
QXP 314 Beautiful for mankind is love of the joys that come from women and children, and heaps of gold and silver, and branded horses, and cattle and well-tilled land. That is comfort of the life of the world. Allah! With Him is a more excellent abode.A quick cross-reference reveled the following
...These are the enjoyment of the world
...This is the provision of the life of this world
...Such are the possessions of this world's life
...That is comfort of the life of the world.
...These things are attractive.Besides Yusuf Ali's translation (which is usually the worst in my opinion), I see no problem with understanding that women can be equated with the terms comfort, enjoyment, provision, or attractive, as men can be seen in the eyes of women.
I would look into the Arabic word that is translated as "materials". Perhaps one of our humble scholars will save you the legwork.
Peace,
Taydid you like the Parwez translation as much as Shabbir Ahmed's? I'm only up to midway through chapter 2 in the Parwez translation and as much as I enjoy Parwez's translation so far, I find Shabbir Ahmed for some reason to be much more enjoyable and contain better, more revolutionary thoughts/interpretations, the only problem I find with TulueIslam is that it still somewhat gives the Sunnah of the Sunnis a bit of authority especially when it comes to the "5 pillars", other then that I think TulueIslam is one of the best Islamic sites on the net just for the fact they contain the great works of Parwez and many other great books/articles from some of the best Islamic writers in the 20th century, I liked Parwez's views on destiny myself, Sara has the right to complain about that stupid doctrine http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/kt/kt_18.htm
peace
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Peace Idris,
For my personal growth, I am addicted to QXP. I find it to be the most articulate. Additionally, anything I've ever questioned I've asked him (Dr. Ahmed) at bazm Forum and his answers always seem to be right on point. I have tremendous respect for him.
At the same time, I enjoy cross-referenceing verses between Parwez and Shabbir. It's interesting to see the subtle differences. Parwez' style is clearly different, and it''s nice to get a different perspective on ayat. Overall, I prefer QXP, but I admit that I have enjoyed some Parwez ayat over QXP.
And as specific study tool, I read an ayah in QXP, then cross-reference the "multi-lingual Qur'an" at http//www.al-islam.org/quran/ to get the literal translations from Ali, Shakir, Pickthall, then cross-reference QT and Asad's translation , though the online version is choppy and incomplete.
I haven't ventured deep enough into TolueIslam to agree with you. I read a couple of articles from Parwez a while back but didn't encounter and Sunni references. I'm actually still trying to get back to Iqbal's "Reconstruction of Religious Thought". That guy doesn't waste any words so it's a slow read for me, but he seems brilliant.
And thanks for the link to the article. Yes, Sara has every right to complain. She's the future of our deen.
Peace,
Tay -
Tay,
Tay wroteCheck this out
QXP 314 Beautiful for mankind is love of the joys that come from women and children, and heaps of gold and silver, and branded horses, and cattle and well-tilled land. That is comfort of the life of the world. Allah! With Him is a more excellent abode.Since the Qxp has done a beautiful job of translating it from materials to comfort I was just curious as to why would this case be gender specific as if it was meant for the men.It could have come down as spouse instead of women because mind you women are as lustful as men in all the other aspects like Gold,children,etc.
cheers,
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Peace *
The verse reads 'adorned for people are the worldly pleasures'...this to me means that all this lust for possession etc is a worldy pleasure...and also the 'objects' mentioned are the commonest things that lead most astray from the righteous path, thru ages...if you've seen troy, and godfather/scarface etc etc...God didn't have to mention every single thing that would lead you astray did He? He just mentioned the most common ones and using our perception, we see what He is saying to us...
I hope i helped you somewhat..
Peace
Why didn't God say 'spouses'? Why does this verse seem only to be addressed to men?
Roshan
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Roshan,
Do you ever read the posts here before you made such an enquiry??
Tay wroteCheck this out
QXP 314 Beautiful for mankind is love of the joys that come from women and children, and heaps of gold and silver, and branded horses, and cattle and well-tilled land. That is comfort of the life of the world. Allah! With Him is a more excellent abode.Yankee wrote
Since the Qxp has done a beautiful job of translating it from materials to comfort I was just curious as to why would this case be gender specific as if it was meant for the men.It could have come down as spouse instead of women because mind you women are as lustful as men in all the other aspects like Gold,children,etc.Why didn't God say 'spouses'? Why does this verse seem only to be addressed to men?
Roshan
cheers.
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Why didn't God say 'spouses'? Why does this verse seem only to be addressed to men?
Salam All,
The verse is clearly not addressing males only, it is addressing "all people".
It is telling "all people" about inherent nature of mankind, giving a list of "wordly" "things" that humans are attracted to and which they should be carefull about.
The list includes "gold, silver and horses".. fine
The list also includes "Al-nissa'" and "al-baneen".... now if the first is "women" you have a problem. If the second is "children" you have a problem too.Let's first agree that that is indeed what the verse is about.
Peace,
Mohamed~ -
Peace be upon you,
Yankee Doodle and Roshan, my point exactly. Why wasn't the word "spouses" used? I checked out all seven different transaltions of the Koran I can find and they all said "women". It seems as if "women" are driving the righteous away from God! Besides, it feels like the entire Book is addressed to the men.
Elena, I am doing the exact same project, which is finding out the percentage of times the Koran addresses the men. I have only two more chapters of the Koran to go, which God Willing I'll get done by next week. Once compiled, I'll let you know.
Thanks all,
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Yankee Doodle and Roshan, my point exactly. Why wasn't the word "spouses" used? I checked out all seven different transaltions of the Koran I can find and they all said "women". It seems as if "women" are driving the righteous away from God! Besides, it feels like the entire Book is addressed to the men.
Since the verse is addressing "people" and not "men", one should conclude that
"women" are driving the righteous men AND the righteous women, away from God!
Mohamed~
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"women" are driving the righteous men AND the righteous women, away from God!
How so?
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Peace all,
It's time to be a little objective here and start thinking according to some basic facts of life...along with what the quran says.
Now, i'll be honest as possible and please bear with me as this is my personal opinion based on some facts observed in life and experienced.
Right, what have we seen since the long long time that we have existed on this plane of existence, according to history and what we see all around us today? Men have different roles and women have different roles to live in this existence. That is why a man is a man and a woman is a woman.
The souls are equal to one another but the role we are born into in this plane of existence are not the same. Men have always been responsible for women as they have the role of bringing life into this world and nurturing it. The souls are equal but the roles are not similar. Men and women ARE different in the roles they have to exist in.
This responsibility is inclusive of earning, protecting and taking care of the women. Women are women for a reason. What is that reason? Bringing life into this world, nurturing and protecting it and thinking and doing whatever to support and bring a different perspective to the entire deal.
There are exceptions always and God has not forbidden any deviant course from the norm, like if a man wants to nurture and a woman wants to earn etc, but what is the common general rule since time immorial? Women always have babies and take care of them and men always earn the livelihood and protect (always exceptions but we are talking generally)
These days being a feminist and having manhood envy is common. Being a vegetarian and opposing people who eat animals is common. The reasoning behind it is, why would a merciful and egalitarian (acc to human/preconceived/biased thought of what God should be) God allow this? Now i'm not a feminist but i believe strongly in human and women's rights (animals too). Why am i not a feminist? because i think they have major issues with men, instead of dealing with the issues they tend to go off on an extreme tangent.
The simple fact is, we know of no prophet that was a woman, we hear of no messengers that were women (though it's possible that a woman can be a messenger)...but why is this? Shouldnt there be equality then? Why are some verses seemingly addressed to men? Can't women get some sense out of it?
The answers to the above is, what is common or the general run of events since time started for us? Why is it like that? Because of the roles we have as men and women. Women can definitely get a sense of the quran and know all that they can with God's help, they can be as close to God as men because the souls are equal, it's not as if there aren't passages devoted to women's rights alone...they are, then why the fuss if some are devoted to men and their place in this world? Lack of understanding of what's what perhaps?
So all in all, there should be no sugar coating the facts. Women are women and men are men. This is the way it is and we should best accept this as God's plan and adjust accordingly and submit...it's for the best, as this is God's system, His rules are there to help us achieve the best possible ending in this temporal plane of existence. There is no room for preconceived human conceptions of how God should be and what should be His mercy and His rules. God has laid down the rules, and we better get with it.
IMP NOTE Nowhere am i suggesting that women can't do what men can, or that men can't do what women can, as role reversals...to a certain point they can (obviously no one is saying men can give birth) and there are always exceptions and allowed...maybe these exceptions will even grow...but there is a natural tendency we have acc to what we are born as and to reject that and try to be something else just because of certain reasons like its not fair, i want to be a man, i want to do what a man can, or vice versa is basically rejecting what God put us here as, and will only lead to confusion and more issues. We should love and accept what we are and who we are.
Nadia
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Peace be upon you,
That's a very sane and intelligent post savage_carrot. I agree.
After reading that verse several times, I've come to the following conclusion
1.) It is addressed to all "people" - men and women included.
2.) Since its addressed to both, God choose things that appeal to both.
3.) Women appeal to men
4.) Children appeal to men and women
5.) Piles and piles of Gold and silver appeal to women
6.) Trained horses appeal to men
7.) Livestock and crops which were equivalent to money, I guess appeal to those who are hungry for more money and are thus stingy which I can say will full confidence include both men and women.The hypocrite men and the hypocrite women belong with each other - they advocate evil and prohibit righteousness, and they are stingy. They forgot GOD, so He forgot them. The hypocrites are truly wicked.
Of course there are exceptions as we all have different wants and needs. Some women might want horses, while some men might want gold and silver. But these are what the majority have known to do.
That's my understanding. Women don't drive anyone away from God.
The submitting men, the submitting women, the believing men, the believing women, the obedient men, the obedient women, the truthful men, the truthful women, the steadfast men, the steadfast women, the reverent men, the reverent women, the charitable men, the charitable women, the fasting men, the fasting women, the chaste men, the chaste women, and the men who commemorate GOD frequently, and the commemorating women; GOD has prepared for them forgiveness and a great recompense.
There, God has equated both to have exactly the same capactityand capability to do what is expected of them by God. And whose testimony is greatest than God's? The rest is all nonsense.
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Peace *,
That's a very good interpretation of the verse...it brought something different to the forefront that i had not thought about. I agree, thats a balance.
And whose testimony is greatest than God's? The rest is all nonsense.
Wholeheartedly agree.