On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study

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ON SUJOOD

Since my arrival on free-minds I've learnt quite a lot. One of the things I noticed it that some members posit that sujood means to "turn towards", or to "hear and obey", or to "acknowledge". Thus I went and did my own research with this newfound knowledge.

The following text is an accumulation of points that I've gathered in light of these hypotheses.

I'll also address the phrase in 17107 and 17109 and as these are cited as evidence for sujood being a purely mental act of worship, and not physical.

***PREISLAMIC ARABS KNEW WHAT PROSTRATION (SUJOOD) WAS AND DISLIKED IT DUE TO THEIR PRIDE

-- The Quran attests that prostration met strong opposition among Arabs (2560, 6842-3) and that pride was the cause of this opposition (7206, 1649, 3215)

From Encyclopaedia of the Quran, Vol. 4 Page 219

Sujud was known among the peoples of the Middle East in pre-Islamic times as a gesture of respect at royal courts and as an act of adoration in Christian worship. Pre-Islamic poetry cites a few examples of prostration (sujud) before a tribal chief in recognition of his superiority and as an expression of one?s submission (cf. Tottoli, Muslim attitudes, 5-34).
The act of prostration hurt the pride (q.v.) of the Arabs (Q 2560; 7206; cf. 1649; 3215; 6842-3) because it appeared to them as a humiliating gesture and an alien practice (cf. Kister, Some reports, 3-6).

-- From this information we can gather that prostration was well known to the Arabs prior to Islam. And that they disliked it because they were too proud to make such obviously humbling obeisance.

***RELATION OF REPENTANCE WITH PHYSICAL PROSTRATION/BOWING

-- 3824 - And David thought that We had only tried him; therefore he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down, bowing, and he repented (kharra raaki'an wa'anaaba)

-- In his extreme state of repentance, David falls/bows. Thus is God relating to us the relationship between physical and emotional acts of obeisance.

***RELATION OF PRAYER WITH PHYSICAL PROSTRATION/BOWING

-- 243 - And perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and bow with those that bow. (warka'uu ma' alraaki'een)

• 1003 Ra-Kaf-Ayn bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.

***BETTER WORD EXISTS FOR "TURNING TOWARDS"

-- 3830 - To David We gave Solomon (for a son),- How excellent in Our service! Ever did he turn (to Us)! (Innahu awwaab)

-- The term "awwaab" means to turn/turn towards/return

-- 3824 - And David thought that We had only tried him; therefore he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down, bowing, and he repented (kharra raaki'an wa'anaaba)

-- The term "anaaba" means to repent and turn again and again

-- Thus we see that sujood cannot mean to "turn towards" because the word "anaaba" means to turn/return. Some people claim that "kharra sujjadan" is an argument against sujood being physical because kharra already means to fall, thus making sujood redundant. But if this is so, then why does God state that David bows down returning (kharra wa'anaaba)?
Surely the better words for this would have been sujood, as in "kharra sujjadan", if we accept that sujood means to 'turn towards'?

-- 3834 - And verily We tried Solomon, and set upon his throne a (mere) body. Then did he repent. (thumma anaaba)

-- This time it is Solomon's turn to return to God after his misdeeds. It is translated here as 'repent' to suit the context, because 'returning to God' presupposes that he repented first.

-- 1187 - I desire only to set things right, so far as I am able. My succour is only with God; in Him I have put my trust, and to Him I turn, penitent. (tawakkaltu wa'ilaihi 'uneeb)

-- Here Shu'ayb is telling his people that he turns to God only. If sujood means to "turn towards" or "acknowledge", then why is it not used here? Because 'uneeb is a word that means exactly that.

ON SALAH

I will argue here that the prayer as we have been taught to perform it is the true Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad, with slight changes made to it by scholars after his death.

***THE HADITH ARGUMENT

-- We love to point out to hadith followers that Muhammad demanded no one transcribe hadiths about him. (Source) We also like to point out how Zayd refused to write hadiths, and that Omar was going to write hadiths but didn't. (Source)

So let us not balk at the use of hadiths for historical research in this particular instance

We are told in hadiths that Aysha didn't like Abu Hurayra, that Hassan called Omar a liar, etc etc. But not one single mention of prayer being changed. We are even told how the Prophet liked to urinate! So clearly the collectors were not shy of drama-enducing hadiths such as those, so they wouldn't have shied away from other controversial hadiths.

Also, given the hadith literature's obsession with transmission and mutawaatir traditions, sayings that have come from so many people as to make the possibility of corruption negligible, a change from emotional, mental group prayer to a physical one would have been related by ALL those who prayed with Muhammad or the sahaabah. The sheer quantity of people would have been staggering - it would immediately have entered Islamic lore
We can assume that Muhammad's apostles and contemporaries all knew how to pray correctly since they prayed with him. So for a generation or two, everyone in Mecca, Medina, and that area would have prayed non-physically in congregation. Then there would have been groups far away, perhaps in Iraq or Iran, who were doing the incorrect physical prayer because of someone saying they had seen Muhammad doing it like that.

But what happened when these people returned to Mecca for Hajj or other pilgrimages? Surely the locals would have been shocked by all these newcomers with their odd physical prostrations?!

All I am saying is that if there had been such a change - we would know about it and it would be extensively covered in Islamic literature. Someone would have mentioned an odd group of people around Mecca and Medina who didn't prostrate nor bow and who had to be corrected. Or someone would have said to Bukhari "my father says that when he prayed with Muhammad they never bowed nor prostrated". But no one ever did.

Not one of these scholars makes a single argument against or for physical prayer. Every single one accepts it as the only way to perform prayer. People like this are highly unlikely to have been influenced by Zoroastrian prayer or Jewish forms of prayer if Muhammad had never done physical prayer himself.

***SHAFE'I AND SALAH

-- Shafi (or Shafe3i), was the first to alter the course of the religion by putting hadiths on par with the Quran in importance, and in his works he calls for change, or takes specific positions on many aspects of Islamic worship - but not in the form of salah.

However, from my research (which is not complete), I have found one attribute of today's salah that can be attributed to the influence of Shafe3i - the prayer for Muhammad and Abraham at the end of sujood (and perhaps the tashahhud itself), for Shafe3i was a cousin of the Prophet, and was known to have loved him immensely (part of the reason why he venerated hadiths so much). In fact, Shafe3i is known to have said

O Family of Allah?s Messenger! To love you is an obligation
Which Allah ordained and revealed in the Qur?an.
It is enough proof of your immense glory that
Whoever invokes not blessings upon you, his prayer is invalid.

http//www.sunnah.org/publication/khulafa_rashideen/shafii.htm

According to wikipedia, "Al Muzani said of him, ?He said in the Old School ?Supplication ends with the invocation of blessings on the Prophet, and its end is but by means of it.?

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Idris_ash-Shafi%60i

According to the Encyclopaedia Of Islam (Brill) Volume 9, page 189

His genealogy was one of the most prestigious since, while being a Kurashi, he was a Muttalibi on his father's side, thus a distant relative of the Prophet (al-Muttalib was the brother of Hashim, paternal great-grandfather of Muhammad). His mother was, according to different sources, either of the Yemeni tribe of Azd , or a direct descendent from CA1T b. Abl Talib ?

This genealogy, which has been disputed, is always cited in connection with various hadiths of the Prophet?"The Imams are of Kuraysh", "Learn from the Kurashis and do not seek to teach them anything", etc.?with the evident intention of stressing the fundamental superiority of al-Shafici, and thereby of the school which claims him, over the other Imams. Similarly, it is often considered that al-Shafici was the renewer (mud^addid) of religion (who, according to another hadith, is sent by God "at the beginning of each century&quot of the 2nd century A.H.

From here

The consensus of not only all the early scholars but those who came after is that the prayer on the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) in the final sitting before the closure of the prayer is not an obligatory part of the prayer. Imam Shafi'i is the exception and says that any prayer that does not contain the prayer on the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) in the final sitting of one's prayer when one bears witness to the Oneness of Allah before the greeting of peace (the tashahuhd) is invalid.

***THE RAK'AHS

Wakas' excellent article, Rethinking Tradition In Islamic Thought has a passage on the Indian modernist Sir Sayed Ahmad Khan. Khan was one of the first modern thinkers to come to the conclusion that hadiths are unreliable.

SAK began to regard The Quran as the supreme standard, against which other information about the Prophet should be tested. He came to consider only muttawatir traditions (those transmitted by great enough number of persons to eliminate the possibility of collusion to deceive) to be a reliable basis of belief independent of The Quran. Of these, he claimed to have found only 5.

Interestingly, however, the number of rak'ahs performed in today's prayer is considered to be a mutawaatir tradition.

There are 2 types of mutawaatir categorizations - mutawaatir in wording, and mutawaatir in meaning - where large amounts of people quote the Prophet directly. And it so happens that the number of rak'ahs is considered a mutawaatir tradition. I have no been able to ascertain just how many people reported this, but to give you an idea of other mutawaatir traditions, the hadith, "Whoever intentionally attributes a lie against me, should prepare his seat in the Fire." was reported by 74 different people at different times.

Why is this important?

The Quran itself is mutawaatir

This fact is accepted by mainstream sunnism, in fact, it is one of their strongest arguments for the use of hadiths. The Quran was collected and verified by a large number of the Prophet's apostles and closest followers, and the few mutawaatir hadiths that we have were also collected in this manner.

Therefore, like Sir Sayed Ahmad Khan, I must agree that the mutawaatir hadiths should not be expunged. What is required now is an indepth study of these hadiths by someone from freeminds.

***RECITING THE FATIHA IN EVERY RAK'AH

I have found a large number of hadiths on the recitation of the fatiha in every rak'a, which is probably the oddest aspect of the traditional salah, because it does not really have any concordance with the quran.

The takbeer and the recitation during the rukoo' phase come under the category of worship of God during salah as stated in the Quran.
The tashahhud comes under the category of "praying to the prophet" which will be discussed later on.
And lastly, the physical positions adhere to the physical positions mentioned in the Quran.

However, recitation of the fatiha is not mentioned in the Quran, but comes from several hadiths. See the list in Appendix 2.

Let me say that in my opinion, this is hardly something for people on here to balk at. Recitation of the fatiha takes about 30 seconds, and even if you do believe it shouldn't be recited in each prayer, in each rak'a, then you aren't exactly wasting a lot of time by reciting it quickly before getting on with the bulk of the prayer reciting/reading from the Quran.

***PRAYING ON THE PROPHET AND THE TASHAHHUD

1. The recitation of the fatiha in prayer as far as I can tell has many hadiths supporting it, including this one from Abu Hurayra

Muslim recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Prophet said,
? ?
(Whoever performs any prayer in which he did not read Umm Al-Qur?an, then his prayer is incomplete.) He said it thrice.

So this may or not be an innovation to the prayer that occurred later.

According to maintream Sunnism, the tashahhud part of the prayer and praying on the prophet are done because of the copious amounts of hadith in support of it, and the verse which states to pray on the prophet. I will here summarize the mainstream sunni view. This article gives an indepth account of the mainstream view.

The verse is this one

"Allah and His angels call down blessings on the Prophet. O you who believe! Call down blessings on him and ask for complete peace and safety for him." (Qur'an 3356)

Here are some of the hadiths cited in the article

It is related that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessing be upon him) came out one day and joy could be seen in his face. He said, "Jibril, peace be upon him, came to me and said, 'Are you not pleased, O Mohammed, that none of your community blesses you but that I bless him ten times, and none of your community prays for peace on you, but that I pray it for him ten times.'"

The Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) said, "The people most deserving of me are those who pray the most for blessing on me." The Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) said, "If someone blesses me, the angels bless him as long as he continues to bless me, so let him diminish that or increase it." The Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) said, "It is enough miserliness in a man that when I am mentioned in his presence, he does not call down blessing on me.

The Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) said, "Pray for blessing for me a lot every Friday." He (peace and blessing be upon him) said, "If anyone of my community says one prayer on me, ten good actions are written down for him and ten bad actions are effaced from him."

Abu Sulayman ad-Darani said, "If someone wants to ask Allah for a need, he should begin with the prayer on the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) then ask Allah for his need, and then seal it with the prayer on the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. Allah will accept the two prayers, and is too generous to omit what is between the two."

It is related that the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) said, "If someone blesses me 100 times on Friday, he will be forgiven the mistakes of 80 years."

The Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) said, "Those of you who do the most prayers on me will have the most wives in the Garden."

^wow...I don't really know what to say about that one.

Well however ridiculous some of them may be, the point is that there are plenty of them.

This is a good summary of the orthodox view

Moreover, it is worth noting that some illusory persons may believe that the Prayers and Greetings upon the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) is a kind of a secure intercession from us to him beside Almighty Allah so as to raise his sublime rank in Allah?s realm, but the reality is that Almighty Allah has recommended us to thank and to be grateful to the one who had been kind and generous towards us, such are the great attributes of the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) towards his followers. Since we are unable to reward the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) on such infinite bounties, Allah the Exalted has ordered us to Salute and Greet the Prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) as a reward to him in view of his grace to us as there are no grace and kindness except that of Almighty Allah when he has sent this Blessed Messenger as a blessing and mercy to the whole Mankind.

Also see the quote above in the Shafe'i section where it says that all the earliest scholars agreed that praying on the Prophet is obligatory, but Shafe'i went so far as to say a prayer without it is invalid.

The Maliki school of jurisprudence, the people of Medina, Sufyan Thawri, and the people of Kufa in the company of others are of the opinion that it is recommended to say the prayer in the final sitting of one's prayer when one bears witness to the Oneness of Allah before the greeting of peace, and it is disliked that it be omitted.

It should be noted that all the madhhabs agree that this should be done in prayer.

A long video on the tashahhud and its origins and beauty is given by a Sheikh here. It mentions that there are 5 versions of the supplications to the Prophet, each with a subtle, but minute difference. He repeats many times the story of how the Prophet took the hands of one of his disciples into his own and taught him the tashahhud "as he taught us a chapter of the Quran". This disciple then went and taught it to another in the same manner, and so on and so forth.

In summary, the commandment to pray on the Prophet in the sujood phase of prayer is almost entirely derived from hadiths, with only that 1 verse from the Quran shown in support.

2. The reason that the tashahhud is addressed to the Prophet as if he is alive is due to the belief that the prophets are alive in their graves. There is a copious amount of hadith literature on this, including some ridiculous ones stating that Moses was seen standing up in his grave in prayer.

However, a stronger argument than this also exists, namely that the Quran states that martyrs are alive with God, and since prophets are "higher up" in the chain of virtue than martyrs, it is believed that they must also be alive with God.

This site lists the copious hadiths relating to this

http//qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=3&ID=4597&CATE=348

SUMMARY

From this evidence it is apparent to me that the prayer was ALWAYS physical.

• The Arabs knew what sujood was BEFORE the Quran was sent down, and it does not make sense for God to use a word that already has an accepted meaning. That is inherently illogical.

• Sujood cannot mean "turning towards" because this concept already has a word in the Quran - AWB (awwaba) and NWB (anaaba)

• Physical movements are related to repentance and devotion in "kharra raaki3an wa'anaaba" and "kharra sujjadan"

• These meanings undoubtedly have an emotional connotation as well. Sujood and Rukoo3 both have connotations of humility and obeisance, but this is not their entire meaning.

• In the history of Islamic literature (not just hadith literature), we are never told of a purely mental prayer or recitational prayer, and the only major change that occurred in prayer was the change of the qibla during Muhammad's time from Jerusalem to Mecca.

• The content of the prayers - what is said and when - may have received some change during the course of history, and this must be examined through hadith literature and other islamic literature so that we can identify the source of these changes. Like I said above, Shafe3i is a good candidate for the source of the tashahhud in prayer for example.

CONCLUSION

I have to conclude from all this that prayer is the direct sunna of Muhammad, and that the prayer we do today is the prayer of Muhammad, which is extremely close to the prayer mentioned in the Quran.

Thus it is my belief that this form of prayer is the most acceptable one, although people are free to pray otherwise, as long as they adhere to the commandments in the Quran about standing, bowing, prostrating, performing ablution, etc.

This form of prayer also satisfies the following

1. It is readily done in congregation. This is extremely important, as prayer and 'ibaadaat (forms of worship) in general are for US, and not for God. There is a great article on this by Arnold Yassin Mol, and it has long been my belief that 'ibaadaat are there to guide us, be it in the microcosmic sense such as teaching individuals discipline, mental rigour, and the quran, or in the macrocosmic sense such as bringing communities closer together and creating a unified group of people transcending race, culture, etc.

2. It is very effective in teaching individuals the Quran. Prayer whilst reading from the Quran is accepted by most Sunni madhhabs, and in my honest opinion, the only madhhabs that do not accept it (hanbali and maliki) have really inane and fatuous reasons for doing so.

A really good article on that can be found here

3. It incorporates the Quran reading/recitation in the standing phases, and the du3aas in the sujood phase, where one can pray for oneself or for one's family, etc. I prefer to repeat the supplications by Abraham given in the quran, or others that have close resemblance to my life, such as "rabbanaa waj3alnaa muslimayni laka, wa min dhurriyyatinaa ummatan muslimatan laka, wa arinaa manaasikanaa, wa tub 3alaynaa, innaka anta 'l-tawwaabu 'l-ra7eem"

Therefore i do not understand the repeated assertion by people that the traditional method of prayer is only a blind mechanical ritual. It incorporates learning the Quran, personal prayer for oneself, and the physical and psychological forms of obedience.

APPENDIX 1 - On Kharra sujjadan

And they fall to their chins?

This phrase has been given as an argument to prove that sujood is only a mental action.
The argument goes that in 17107 and 17109, when God says "kharruu liladhqaani sujjadan" and "kharruu liladhqaani bakiyyan" - He is either stating we must "fall to the chins" in prayer, or that it is an idiom which means that they fell emotionally to a more humble place.

First we have to establish that the Quran uses idioms and metaphors in its text.

***USE OF IDIOMS/METAPHORS (other than kharruu liladhqaani)

-- 5156-57 - I created jinn and humankind only to serve me. I do not desire provisions from them, nor do I wish them to feed me."

-- 26215 - And lower thy wing to the Believers who follow thee. (wa'akhfid janaahaka)

The Quran has many idioms and metaphors, and these are but a small example to prove their existence.

***Secondly, we must prove that the word "kharra" means to physically fall in all other cases in the Quran.

The root word KH-R-R is used 12 times in AQ
I shall try to be as unbiased as possible, giving equal weight to each possibility.

1. 7143 And when Moses came to Our appointed time and his Lord spoke with him, he said, 'Oh my Lord, show me, that I may behold Thee!' Said He, 'Thou shalt not see Me; but behold the mountain -- if it stays fast in its place, then thou shalt see Me.' And when his Lord revealed Him to the mountain He made it crumble to dust; and Moses fell down swooning. (kharra muusaa sa3iqan) So when he awoke, he said, 'Glory be to Thee! I repent to Thee; I am the first of the believers.'

-- Moses fell swooning / senseless .

Thus he fell physically.

2. 12100 And he lifted his father and mother upon the throne; and the others fell down prostrate before him. (kharruu lahu sujjadan) 'See, father,' he said, 'this is the interpretation of my vision of long ago; my Lord has made it true. He was good to me when He brought me forth from the prison, and again when He brought you out of the desert, after that Satan set at variance me and my brethren. My Lord is gentle to what He will; He is the All-knowing, the All-wise.

3. 1626 Those that were before them contrived; then God came upon their building from the foundations, and the roof fell down on them from over them, and the chastisement came upon them from whence they were not aware.

4. 17107 Say 'Believe in it, or believe not; those who were given the knowledge before it when it is recited to them, fall down upon their faces prostrating (yukhirruuna lilidhqaani sujjadan)

5. 17109 And they fall down upon their faces (yukhirruuna lilidhqaani) weeping; and it increases them in humility.'

6. 1958 These are they whom God has blessed among the Prophets of the seed of Adam, and of those We bore with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and of those We guided and chose. When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping. (kharruu sujjadan wa bakiyyaa)

7. 1990 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,

8. 2231 Being true in faith to Allah, and never assigning partners to Him if anyone assigns partners to Allah, is as if he had fallen from heaven and been snatched up by birds, or the wind had swooped (like a bird on its prey) and thrown him into a far-distant place.

9. 2573 And those who, when they are reminded of the revelations of their Lord, fall not deaf and blind thereat.

-- Many people argue that this verse literally says "they are reminded of the revelations of their Lord and fall not on them deaf and blind." They then argue that one cannot fall on signs from God.
However, The feminine pronoun "ha" here can refer to the act of reminding, and not on the ayaat.
And reading it as in the translation above not only makes sense, but is also consistent with all other usages of khrr in the Quran.

10. 3215 Only those believe in Our signs who, when they are reminded of them, fall down prostrate (kharruu sujjadan) and proclaim the praise of their Lord, not waxing proud.

11. 3414 Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task)

-- Physical here meaning death, as per Lane's Lexicon.

12. 3824 Said he, 'Assuredly he has wronged thee in asking for thy ewe in addition to his sheep; and indeed many intermixers do injury one against the other, save those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness -- and how few they are!' And David thought that We had only tried him; therefore he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down, bowing, and he repented. (kharra raaki3an wa2anaaba)

Thus we see that all references to khrr in the Quran refer to physically falling, and not emotional acts. The only exception is 3414 where 'to fall' is a metaphor for death.

***THIRDLY, WE MUST SEE THAT WE HAVE A VALID EXPLANATION FOR THIS PHRASE

Lane's Lexicon gives us a few similar examples to help us understand this idom

-- A wind blew violently, so that the trees fell, or bent themselves down to the ground
-- The wind blew,and overturned, or threw down, or bent down, the trees
(of a stone) -- The torrent overturned it.

All of the above examples use the phrase "to the chins" to mean a dramatic fall, or falling speedily or in earnest.

1. The tree "fell to the chins".

2. The tree was "overturned to its chins".

3. The stone was "overturned to its chin".

So unless we argue that Lane was absolutely wrong when he wrote this - then we must accept that the phrase "fell to the chins" in Arabic is simply a poetic device used to add dramatic power to the sentence. Instead of the mighty tree falling to the ground, it fell to the chins! Instead of the the people falling to the ground at God's signs, they fell to the chins!

***FOURTHLY, WE MUST USE SOME LOGIC

So the argument goes that this phrase must be an idiom because if one is to perform sujood, then one has to perform it "to the chins", as this verse states, and as we all know falling to one's chin is foolish, sujood must therefore be metaphorical also.

There is a perfectly logical answer to the assertion, and it comes 2 verses later in 17109

wa yukhirruuna lil-adhqaani bakiyyan

and they fell to the chins, crying

So if we use the same logic as above, we can say that if you are to cry in the future, you have to do it whilst falling to the chin, because that's what the Quran states! And since no one does that, this logic continues, then the word "crying" must be completely idiomatic as well!

Let's look at the form of these two statements

action idiom definer

17107 and they fell to the chins in sujood

17109 and they fell to the chins in tears

So the people arguing that this entire statement is an idiom are arguing for this

17107 and they fell to the chins in sujood <---- idiom

17109 and they fell to the chins in tears <---- action

So apparently we are supposed to believe that in 2 identical phrases, one is an idiom and one is an action, and the only evidence for that is the fact that they stubbornly want to believe that sujood does not reflect any physical movement, when the fact is, that the traditional reading of these 2 verses makes PERFECT sense.

17107 and they fell to their faces in prostration

or

and they utterly collapsed in prostration

17109 and they fell to their faces weeping

or

and they utterly collapsed, weeping

Appendix 2 - All hadiths on reciting the fatiha in every rak'a

Sahih Bukhari

(1) Narrated 'Ubada bin As-Samit Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever does not recite al-fatiha in his prayer, his prayer is invalid." (Book #12, Hadith #723)

(2) Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Qatada My father said, "The Prophet in Zuhr prayers used to recite al-fatihaalong with two other Suras in the first two Rakat a long one in the first Rak'a and a shorter (Sura) in the second, and at times the verses were audible. In the 'Asr prayer the Prophet used to recite al-fatiha and two more Suras in the first two Rakat and used to prolong the first Rak'a. And he used to prolong the first Rak'a of the Fajr prayer and shorten the second. (Book #12, Hadith #726)

(3) Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Qatada My father said, "The Prophet used to recite al-fatiha along with another Sura in the first two Rakat of the Zuhr and the 'Asr prayers and at times a t verse or so was audible to us." (Book #12, Hadith #729)

(4) Narrated Abu Huraira The Qur'an is recited in every prayer and in those prayers in which Allah's Apostle recited aloud for us, we recite aloud in the same prayers for you; and the prayers in which the Prophet recited quietly, we recite quietly. If you recite "al-fatiha" only it is sufficient but if you recite something else in addition, it is better. (Book #12, Hadith #739)

(5) Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Qatada My father said, "The Prophet uses to recite al-fatiha followed by another Sura in the first two Rakat of the prayer and used to recite only al-fatiha in the last two Rakat of the Zuhr prayer. Sometimes a verse or so was audible and he used to prolong the first Rak'a more than the second and used to do the same in the 'Asr and Fajr prayers." (Book #12, Hadith #743)

(6) Narrated 'Abdullah bin Abi Qatada My father said, "The Prophet used to recite al-fatiha along with another Sura in the first two Rakat of the Zuhr and 'Asr prayers. A verse or so was audible at times and he used to prolong the first Rak'a." (Book #12, Hadith #745)

(7) Narrated 'Aisha The Prophet (p.b.u.h) used to make the two Rakat before the Fajr prayer so light that I would wonder whether he recited al-fatiha (or not). (Book #21, Hadith #262)

( Narrated Talha bin 'Abdullah bin 'Auf I offered the funeral prayer behind Ibn Abbas and he recited al-fatihaand said, "You should know that it (i.e. recitation of al-fatiha) is the tradition of the Prophet Muhammad. (Book #23, Hadith #419)

(9) Narrated Abu Said bin Al-Mu'alla While I was praying, Allah's Apostle passed me and called me, but I did not go to him until I had finished the prayer. Then I went to him, and he said, "What prevented you from coming to me? Didn't Allah say-- "O you who believe! Answer the call of Allah (by obeying Him) and His Apostle when He calls you?" He then said, "I will inform you of the greatest Sura in the Qur'an before I leave (the mosque)." When Allah's Apostle got ready to leave (the mosque), I reminded him. He said, "It is 'Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.' (i.e. Surat-al-fatiha) As-sab'a Al-Mathani (the seven repeatedly recited Verses)." (Book#60, Hadith #170)

(10) Narrated Abu Said Al-Mualla While I was praying, the Prophet passed by and called me, but I did not go to him till I had finished my prayer. When I went to him, he said, "What prevented you from coming?" I said, "I was praying." He said, "Didn't Allah say" "O you who believes Give your response to Allah (by obeying Him) and to His Apostle." (8.24) Then he added, "Shall I tell you the most superior Sura in the Qur'an before I go out of the mosque?" When the Prophet intended to go out (of the Mosque), I reminded him and he said, "That is "Alhamdu-lillahi Rabbil-'Alamin (Surat-al-fatiha)' which is the seven oft repeated verses (Al-Mathani) and the Grand Quran which has been given to me." (Book #60, Hadith #226)

(11) Narrated Abu Huraira Allah's Apostle said, "The Um (substance) of the Quran is the seven oft-repeated verses (Al-Mathaini) and is the Great Quran (i.e. Surat-al-fatiha)." (Book #60, Hadith #227)

(12) Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Mu'alla While I was praying, the Prophet called me but I did not respond to his call. Later I said, "O Allah's Apostle! I was praying." He said, "Didn't Allah say 'O you who believe! Give your response to Allah (by obeying Him) and to His Apostle when he calls you'?" (8.24) He then said, "Shall I not teach you the most superior Surah in the Qur'an?" He said, '(It is), 'Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. ' (i.e., Surat al-fatiha) which consists of seven repeatedly recited Verses and the Magnificent Qur'an which was given to me." (Book #61, Hadith #52

(13) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri While we were on one of our journeys, we dismounted at a place where a slave girl came and said, "The chief of this tribe has been stung by a scorpion and our men are not present; is there anybody among you who can treat him (by reciting something)?" Then one of our men went along with her though we did not think that he knew any such treatment. But he treated the chief by reciting something, and the sick man recovered whereupon he gave him thirty sheep and gave us milk to drink (as a reward). When he returned, we asked our friend, "Did you know how to treat with the recitation of something?" He said, "No, but I treated him only with the recitation of the Mother of the Book (i.e., al-fatiha)." We said, "Do not say anything (about it) till we reach or ask the Prophet so when we reached Medina, we mentioned that to the Prophet (in order to know whether the sheep which we had taken were lawful to take or not). The Prophet said, "How did he come to know that it (al-fatiha) could be used for treatment? Distribute your reward and assign for me one share thereof as well." (Book #61, Hadith #529)

(14) Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri Some of the companions of the Prophet came across a tribe amongst the tribes of the Arabs, and that tribe did not entertain them. While they were in that state, the chief of that tribe was bitten by a snake (or stung by a scorpion). They said, (to the companions of the Prophet ), "Have you got any medicine with you or anybody who can treat with Ruqya?" The Prophet's companions said, "You refuse to entertain us, so we will not treat (your chief) unless you pay us for it." So they agreed to pay them a flock of sheep. One of them (the Prophet's companions) started reciting Surat-al-fatiha and gathering his saliva and spitting it (at the snake-bite). The patient got cured and his people presented the sheep to them, but they said, "We will not take it unless we ask the Prophet (whether it is lawful)." When they asked him, he smiled and said, "How do you know that Surat-al-fatiha is a Ruqya? Take it (flock of sheep) and assign a share for me." (Book #71, Hadith #632)

(15) Narrated Ibn 'Abbas Some of the companions of the Prophet passed by some people staying at a place where there was water, and one of those people had been stung by a scorpion. A man from those staying near the water, came and said to the companions of the Prophet, "Is there anyone among you who can do Ruqya as near the water there is a person who has been stung by a scorpion." So one of the Prophet's companions went to him and recited Surat-al-fatiha for a sheep as his fees. The patient got cured and the man brought the sheep to his companions who disliked that and said, "You have taken wages for reciting Allah's Book." When they arrived at Medina, they said, ' O Allah's Apostle! (This person) has taken wages for reciting Allah's Book" On that Allah's Apostle said, "You are most entitled to take wages for doing a Ruqya with Allah's Book." (Book#71, Hadith #633)

(16) Narrated Abu Said A group of the companions of Allah's Apostle proceeded on a journey till they dismounted near one of the Arab tribes and requested them to entertain them as their guests, but they (the tribe people) refused to entertain them. Then the chief of that tribe was bitten by a snake (or stung by a scorpion) and he was given all sorts of treatment, but all in vain. Some of them said, "Will you go to the group (those travelers) who have dismounted near you and see if one of them has something useful?" They came to them and said, "O the group! Our leader has been bitten by a snake (or stung by a scorpion) and we have treated him with everything but nothing benefited him Has anyone of you anything useful?" One of them replied, "Yes, by Allah, I know how to treat with a Ruqya. But. by Allah, we wanted you to receive us as your guests but you refused. I will not treat your patient with a Ruqya till you fix for us something as wages." Consequently they agreed to give those travellers a flock of sheep. The man went with them (the people of the tribe) and started spitting (on the bite) and reciting Surat-al-fatiha till the patient was healed and started walking as if he had not been sick. When the tribe people paid them their wages they had agreed upon, some of them (the Prophet's companions) said, "Distribute (the sheep)." But the one who treated with the Ruqya said, "Do not do that till we go to Allah's Apostle and mention to him what has happened, and see what he will order us." So they came to Allah's Apostle and mentioned the story to him and he said, "How do you know that Surat-al-fatiha is a Ruqya? You have done the right thing. Divide (what you have got) and assign for me a share with you." (Book #71, Hadith #645)

Sahih Muslim

(1) Chapter 9 THE RECITING OF al-fatiha IN EVERY RAK'AH OF PRAYER IS OBLIGATORY (Book #Book, Hadith#Chapter)

(2) Abu Huraira reported The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said One is not credited with having observed the prayer without the recitation (of al-fatiha). So said Abu Huraira (The prayer in which) the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) recited in a loud voice, we also recited that loudly for you (and the prayer in which) he recited inwardly we also recited inwardly for you (to give you a practical example of the prayer of the Holy Prophet). (Book #004, Hadith #077

(3) 'Ata' narrated on the authority of Abu Huraira who said that one should recite (al-fatiha) in every (rak'ah of) prayer. What we heard (i. e. recitation) from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), we made you listen to that. And that which he (recited) inwardly, we (recited) inwardly for you. A person said to him If I add nothing to the (recitation) of the Umm al Qur'an (Surat al-fatiha), would it make the prayer incomplete? He (AbuHuraira) said If you add to that (if you recite some of verses of the Qur'an along with Surat at-Fatiha) that is better for you. But if you are contented with it (Surat al-fatiha) only, it is sufficient for you. (Book#004, Hadith #0779)

(4) 'Ata' reported it on the authority of Abu Huraira who said Recitation (of Surat al-fatiha) in every (rak'ah) of prayer in essential. (The recitation) that we listened to from the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) we made you listen to it. And that which he recited inwardly to us, we recited it inwardly for you. And he who recites Umm al-Qur'an, it is enough for him (to complete the prayer), and he who adds to it (recites some other verses of the Holy Qur'an along with Surat al-fatiha), it is preferable for him. (Book #004, Hadith #0780)

(5) Abu Huraira reported that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood up for the second rak'ah he opened it with the recitation of the praise of Allah, the Lord of universe (al-fatiha), and he did not observe silence (before the recitation of al-fatiha). (Book #004, Hadith #1246)

(6) Chapter 134 EXCELLENCE OF SURAH al-fatiha AND CONCLUDING VERSES OF SURAH AL-BAQARA AND EXHORTATION TO RECITE THE LAST TWO VERSES OF SURAH AL-BAQARA (Book #Book, Hadith #Chapter)

(7) Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that some persons amongst the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) set out on a journey and they happened to pass by a tribe from the tribes of Arabia. They demanded hospitality from the members of that tribe, but they did not extend any hospitality to them. They said to them Is there any incantator amongst you, at the chief of the tribe has bgen stung by a scorpion? A person amongst us said 'Yes. So he came to him and he practised incan- tation with the help of Sura al-fatiha and the person became all right. He was given a flock of sheep (as recompense), but he refused to accept that, saying I shall make a mention of it to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), and if he approves of it. then I shall accept it. So we came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and made a mention of that to him and he (that person) said Allah's Messenger by Allah, I did not practice incantation but with the help of Sura al-fatiha of the Holy Book. He (the Holy Prophet) smiled and said How did you come to know that it can be used (as incactation)? - and then said Take out of that and allocate a share for me along with your share. (Book #026, Hadith #545

( Abu Sa'id al-Khudri reported. We landed at a place where a woman came to us and said A scorpiorn has bitten the chief of the tribe. Is there any incantator amongst you? A person amongst us stood up (and went with her). We had no idea that he had been a good incantator but he practised incantation with the help of Sura al -Fatiha and the (the chief) was all right. They gave him a flock of sheep and served us milk. We said (to him) Are you a good incantatory Thereupon he said I did not do it but by the help of Sura al-Fitiha. He caid Do not drive (these goats) until we go to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and find out (whether it is permissible to accept ( this reward of incantation). So we came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon hin) and made a rrention of that to him, whereupon he said How did you come to know that this (Suraal-fatiha) could be used as an incantation? So distribute them (amongst those who had been present there with him) and allocate a share of mine also. (Book #026, Hadith #5460)

Sunan Abu Dawud

(1) Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) recited the verse "Nor of those who go astray" (Surah al-fatihah, verse 7), he would say Amin; and raised his voice (while uttering this word). (Book #3, Hadith #0932)

(2) Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin Zurarah ibn Awfa said that Aisha was asked about the midnight prayer of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). She said He used to offer his night prayer in congregation and then return to his family (in his house) and pray four rak'ahs. Then he would go to his bed and sleep, but the water for his ablution was placed covered near his head and his tooth-stick was also kept there until Allah awakened him at night. He then used the tooth-stick, performed ablution perfectly then came to the place of prayer and would pray eight rak'ahs, in which he would recite Surah al-fatihah, and a surah from the Qur'an as Allah willed. He would not sit during any of them but sit after the eighth rak'ah, and would not utter the salutation, but recite (the Qur'an) during the ninth rak'ah. Then he would sit and supplicate as long as Allah willed, and beg Him and devote his attention to Him; He would utter the salutation once in such a loud voice that the inmates of the house were almost awakened by his loud salutation. He would then recite Surah al-fatihah while sitting, bow while sitting, and then recite the Qur'an during the second rak'ah, and would bow and prostrate while sitting. He would supplicate Allah as long as He willed, then utter the salutation and turn away. This amount of prayer of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) continued till he put a weight. During that period he retrenched two rak'ahs from nine and began to pray six and seven rak'ahs standing and two rak'ahs sitting. This continued till he died. (Book #5, Hadith #1341)

(3) Narrated Alaqah ibn Sahar at-Tamimi Alaqah passed by a clan (of the Arab) who came to him and said You have brought what is good from this man. Then they brought a lunatic in chains. He recited Surat al-fatihah over him three days, morning and evening. When he finished, he collected his saliva and then spat it out, (he felt relief) as if he were set free from a bond. They gave him something (as wages). He then came to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and mentioned it to him. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said Accept it, for by my life, some accept it for a worthless charm, but you have done so far a genuine one. (Book#23, Hadith #3413)

(4) Narrated Anas ibn Malik The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) had himself cupped three times in the veins at the sides of the neck and on the shoulder. Ma'mar said I got myself cupped, and I lost my memory so much so that I was instructed Surat al-fatihah by others in my prayer. He had himself cupped at the top of his head. (Book #28, Hadith #3851)

(5) Narrated Alaqah ibn Sahar at-Tamimi Alaqah came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and embraced Islam. He then came back from him and passed some people who had a lunatic fettered in chains. His people said We are told that your companion has brought some good. Have you something with which you can cure him? I then recited Surat al-fatihah and he was cured. They gave me one hundred sheep. I then came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and informed him of it. He asked Is it only this? The narrator, Musaddad, said in his other version Did you say anything other than this? I said No. He said Take it, for by my life, some accept if for a worthless chain, but you have done so for a genuine one. (Book #28, Hadith#3887)

(6) Narrated Alaqah ibn Sahar at-Tamimi We proceeded from the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and came to a clan of the Arabs. They said We have been told that you have brought what is good from this man. Have you any medicine or a charm, for we have a lunatic in chains? We said Yes. Then they brought a lunatic in chains. He said I recited Surat al-fatihah over him for three days, morning and evening. Whenever I finished it, I would collect my saliva and spit it out, and he seemed as if he were set free from a bond. He said They gave me some payment, but I said No, not until I ask the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). He (the Prophet) said Accept it, for, by my life, some accept it for a worthless charm, but you have done so for a genuine one. (Book #28, Hadith #3892)

[unknownuser]

Peace ths

I have to conclude from all this that prayer is the direct sunna of Muhammad, and that the prayer we do today is the prayer of Muhammad, which is extremely close to the prayer mentioned in the Quran.

Quran 1187
They said, "O Shoaib! (We had thought that your religion was only a matter between you and your Lord). Does your Salat command that we should forsake the worship that our fathers practiced? Or, that we leave off doing what we like to do with our economy? Behold, you want us to think that you are the only clement, and the rightly guided man among us."

In the verse above, the poeple ask Shoaib if his salat will force them to abandon their current economic system (which enables them to do what they want with their wealth). If Salat is prayer, it can not threathen their economical system. Therefore it is logical to conclude that Salat can not be ritual prayer.

Quran 2441
Do you not realize that Allah, He it is Whom all beings in the heavens and the earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their SALAT and TASBEEH (mission and strife). Allah is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.

Salat can not be ritual prayer, because the word Salat is related to the birds. Does all of the birds know their prayer? That is an illogical conclusion. Therefore we can see Salat is not ritual prayer. Further, we can see from the verse above, that all beings in the heavens and the earth knows their Salat. Therefore Salat is something which every being in the heavens and the earth follows. But as you know, ritual prayer is something which only human beings follow. Therefore it is logical to conclude that Salat can not be ritual prayer.

In my opinion, we should have an "empty mind approach" when we approach knowledge about islam. What do I mean by empty mind? We should forget almost everything we know. We should forget most of what we have learned from traditional islamic scholars and traditional islamic books. We should forget most of what we have learned in school and in the society.

"Real learning is unlearning"

If something is the truth, it can't be disproved. And as you know, the traditional understanding of Salat, is disproved by the Quran itself.

?A cup that is already full has no room to receive.? (Quote from a story http//www.evolvingtimes.com/2010/03/do-you-have-the-right-cup-full/)

Use the empty mind approach, when you approach knowledge about. I think its the best approach. I also recommend something I wrote in another thread, and which you probably have read. However, I think it can be an important reminder

Making a conclusion, then looking for the evidence = Rationalization. Finding the evidence then looking for a conclusion = Reasoning. Look at the superstitions and falsehoods people believe. They believe in code 19, they believe vaccines being good for your health and that the theory of evolution is flawless. You know why? Because they rationalize. They make a conclusion first, then they look for the evidence. And when the evidence don't fit into their conclusions, they dismiss it. They base their understanding on superstition and fantasy instead of facts and reality. And they do not look for arguments for and against and then make an opinion. They have an opinion and ignore the arguments which are against that opinion. They only accept the arguments which support their opinion.

One trap which I used to fall in, in the past, is that I did not want to believe something which forced me to change my life. We should jump over this trap

"A man convinced against is own will, is of the same opinion still"

If you have not read the evidence weighted against physical prostration, I suggest reading it

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599857.msg243028#msg243028

Quite simply, if God gives you a book and you believe in this book and says "uphold the bond", then there is no need for further explanation. The bond of the believers/mumineen is to God and His system, thus a regular/timed reading of His book is a perfect way to remember/understand and thus "uphold the bond". The explanation is self-contained and perfect in its simplicity and practicality. This is my understanding.

"When man doesn't change his life to fit his faith, he will change his faith to fit his life."

[SarahY]

I just had a quick read.

There is indication that salat has been influenced by other religions there are books about the origins of rituals in islam even Ignaz seems to indicate in his first book on Muslim Studies that islam was influenced by other religions.

On page 42 he says ?muslim prayer existed in the community even before the official institution of the rite?. It seems to indicate a form of worship existed people adopted it into islam and i guess it continued.

About Shafi and salah, very interesting. The arabs in pagan times even after their advert in islam were known for their genealogy poetry and priding themselves over decent. This prob helped shafi win his position with the masses

the tashahuud prayer has explicit hadiths on it found in sahih muslims collection

Abdullah b. Zaid-he who was shown the call (for prayer in a dream) narrated it on the authority of Mas'ad al-Ansiri who said We were sitting in the company of Sa'id b. 'Ubida when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) came to us. Bashir b. S'ad said Allah has commanded us to bless you. Messenger of Allah! But how should we bless you? He (the narrator) said The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) kept quiet (and we were so much perturbed over his silence) that we wished we had not asked him. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) then said (For blessing me) say" 0 Allah, bless Muhammad and the members of his household as Thou didst bless the mernbers of ibrahim's household. Grant favours to Muhammad and the members of his household as Thou didst grant favours to the members of the household of ibrahim in the world. Thou art indeed Praiseworthy and Glorious" ; and salutation as you know. (Book #004, Hadith #0803)

Abu Humaid as-Sa'idi reported They (the Companions of the Holy Prophet) said Apostle of Allah, how should we bless you? He (the Holy Prophet) observed Say" O Allah! bless Muhammad, his wives and his offspring as Thou didst bless ibrahim, and grant favours to Muhammad, and his wives and his offspring as Thou didst grant favours to the family of ibrahim; Thou art Praiseworthy and Glorious." (Book #004, Hadith #0807)

Mutawatir might not be the strongest justification for rakat

Verse 1648 is interesting in terms of justifying sujud other than the traditional physical prostration. Sujud here isn't stagnant it's flowing and it's not mental

peace

[ths]

Salaam David_k

Well, first off, I had a read through all the arguments against physical salah before undertaking this project.

Secondly, there is copious amount of evidence that salah is physical. There are many verses that speak of standing, bowing, and prostrating.

You, and other people who prefer the non-physical salah approach, are discarding all of the verses that speak of physical movements, based on a few verses where the meaning is ambiguous. That just doesn't make sense.

Also, once you decide that salah can't be physical based on verses like 1187, you are forced to go and find new meanings for words like raaki'an, qaa'iman, and sujjadan.

Can't you see that you are forcing your own interpretation onto the entire Quran?? Can't you see that you have not applied any methodology??

Also, there have been countless wise and educated scholars of Islam, and none of them ever questioned the physical aspect of salah. So I find it difficult to believe that a bunch of guys on freeminds 'cracked' the true meaning of the Quran - especially after I just debunked their suggestions for the "true" meanings of salah (ie. turning towards, acknowledging, etc.)

Lastly, the Quran does not use 1 meaning for every single word it uses. Many words have double meanings. An example of this is the word "wusta" which can mean either 'middle' or 'balanced'.
In fact, Wakas seems to dig up 3 separate meanings for "wusta" in this post.

So we have established that words can have multiple connotations. The next step is for me to prove that salaah is one of those words, by using Wakas' article, which identifies verses that do not fit the main salat=prayer meaning.

One more thing, the Quran uses metonyms many many times. I believe in Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. And the simplest explanation for salah is that it is in fact a physical prayer as indicated by many verses, but that there are some verses where wordcraft is used, such as metonyms.

A metonym is the best explanation for 1187, and a simple 2 minute googling comes up with several explanations that fully explain the interpretation problem of 1187, without then bringing into question all other verses with physical connotations like a domino effect.

Edip-Layth say

Sala prayer observed properly keeps away from immorality and crimes (2945)

Muhammad Asad, someone who has never shied away from giving his own interpretations (see surat al-fil for example) interprets it

Said they "O Shu'ayb! Does thy praying compel thee to demand of us...

What I'll try to do inshallah, is to go through "the difficult verses" and provide explanations. But what is supremely illogical to me is to assume that we have had the wrong interpretation for 1400 years and that freeminds has 'cracked' it, despite the fact that hundreds of scholars have noticed this problem in the past and thought nothing of it.

Finally, I don't appreciate the condescending lecturing about "emptying my mind". I had an empty mind. I didn't read "traditional scholars". I went to every scholar I could think of. The fact is that not a single expert on the arabic language or on the Quran has ever brought this into question. The word salah definitely has multiple connotations, anyone remotely familiar with the Quran knows how ambiguous certain words can be in different contexts - but the Quran also gives us timings for the salat and physical positions to perform during the salat. Birds and animals do not have free will, and know their salat because it is hardwired into their instinct - humans have free will and must choose to perform it.

Salaam Sarah,

There is indication that salat has been influenced by other religions there are books about the origins of rituals in islam even Ignaz seems to indicate in his first book on Muslim Studies that islam was influenced by other religions.

This is true. I've also read plenty of academic investigations on this recently. But the problem is that not one of these scholars, as far as I can tell, has argued that the prayer changed after Muhammad died. They insinuate that Muhammad himself copied the style of prayer of others. That's why I conclude that this is Muhammad's prayer and has changed very little since his death.

Whether he copied it from Zoroastrians and Jews or not, is another question entirely.
And whether these other groups prayed in a similar fashion because they were rightly guided at some point, is a also a very likely possibility.

But there simply isn't any evidence that people adopted en masse a totally different form of prayer to what they had been doing before.

Mutawatir might not be the strongest justification for rakat

How so?

I think mutawatir is the strongest justification. Remember the Quran itself is a mutawatir tradition. So I find it impossible to on one hand accept the Quran, and on the other reject hadiths that have been transmitted by 70 or so people at different times and places.

But I do accept that I need to study the mutawatir hadiths more.

But at this point....it just looks to me that Muhammad taught his disciples how to pray, and we've been doing it like that ever since. No major shift ever happened.

People on this forum who have never read the hadiths and reject them out of principle may find it easy to disqualify the copious amounts of hadiths relating to salah. But when you look at this from a probabilistic perspective, it is simply absurd to argue that the multitude of hadiths such as this one, were invented later on because of some devious people who really wanted everyone to adopt a physical salah.

, "the Prophet s.a.w would say the takbir and go down into sajdah", and he ordered "the one who prayed badly" to do so, saying to him, No one's prayer is complete unless ... he says Allah listens to the one who praises Him and stands up straight, then says Allah is the Greatest and prostrates such that his joints are at rest.

There are dozens of these.

Also, the Islamic culture has evolved many different forms of sujud, all claimed to be from the Prophet, the sujud al-tilaawah, when reciting the Quran, the sujud al-shukr, when being thankful, and the sujud al-sahw, when you forget how many rak'ahs you've performed.

The point I'm trying to make is that this is unlikely to be a con that was perpetrated on Muslims after Muhammad's death - or we would find some kind of historical evidence for it.

It all looks to me as if the concept of salah is complex, and has many different connotations, and some of the verses that do not fit a straightforward linear interpretation like most people want, are then used to argue that the entire concept of salah has been interpreted wrongly for 1,400 years.

[Wakas]

peace ths,

I consider the logic/reasoning in your article to be poor, and did not address many points, but the parts researching the origins of the traditional ritual prayer may be useful.

I only have one question

Re 2573

However, The feminine pronoun "ha" here can refer to the act of reminding, and not on the ayaat.

Please state your source for the above statement. Thanks.

[Wakas]

I forgot to say

Remember the Quran itself is a mutawatir tradition. So I find it impossible to on one hand accept the Quran, and on the other reject hadiths that have been transmitted by 70 or so people at different times and places.

This is commonly stated, but is critically flawed. See

A commonly stated argument by those who wish to raise traditional hearsay/ahadith to divine-status level is that its compilation was the same as The Quran.

Is that really true? Lets look at the simple and obvious facts...

The Quran = God's Word
Ahadith = man's word

The Quran = 100% fact/truth/perfect
Ahadith = mix of truth and falsehood (hence weak and strong hadith)

The Quran = recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet Muhammad
Ahadith = not recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet Muhammad

The Quran = written AND memorised word for word as soon as it was transmitted
Ahadith = no-one ever claimed to record and memorise ahadith word for word as soon as it was transmitted

The Quran = protected explicitly by God Himself as stated in The Quran
Ahadith = no such explicit protection stated

The Quran = no Muslim doubts its credibility
Ahadith = each sect has its own versions, weak & strong ones etc

The Quran = in-built verification mechanism, e.g. challenges others to find inconsistancy, bring a chapter like it etc.
Ahadith = no such in-built mechanism, full of inconsistancies etc.

[ths]

Hahaha...Wakas I find your faith in the Quran's method of collection endearing, but you have a tendency to ignore academic methods and just take the Quran at its word.

This is fine for a Muslim, but not fine for an academic. I prefer to follow the devil's advocate and challenge my own beliefs.

Therefore, the quote that you posted with random unsupported generalizations doesn't really mean anything to me.

Academically speaking, all the evidence (because evidence actually matters) tells us that the Quran is a mutawatir tradition. Ie. many important people came together to make sure it was exactly what the Prophet uttered.

The concept of a physical prayer is possibly the most mutawatir tradition of all. Why? Because there are hadiths that talk about reciting the fatihah, there are hadiths that talk of sujood, there are hadiths that talk of rukoo3 - BUT - every single one of these hadiths assume that salah is performed with physical prostrations.

Therefore, if ever there was a mutawatir tradition - it is that salah is performed with physical movements.

Therefore, evidence supports my belief, and wild unproven conjectures support yours. I base mine on history and academic scholarship, and you base yours on your own faulty understanding of Quranic verses.

I consider the logic/reasoning in your article to be poor

Well thank you for that non-answer Wakas, but generally when I slam someone else's hard work I think it proper to provide evidence and justification and not just b.s. subjective generalizations.

How is my logic "poor"?

It's funny you should say so considering some of the world's top universities didn't think my logic was poor....but hey, if wakas says so!

and did not address many points

Which points?

Please state your source for the above statement. Thanks.

Feel free to consult an Arabic teacher. You have problems in understanding how Arabic pronouns work. This is unsurprising as you're using English as your base, in which pronouns work differently.

Lastly, let me make a clarification. My view of salah is very holistic. I assume everything incorrect until valid evidence is provided to support it. You assume that salah was perverted at some point from a mental one into a physical one. This is fine - but where is the historical evidence?

Therefore I went and searched for this change. I looked for any mention of such a change in history - and found none. There simply isn't any.

I am not arguing that this is how salah should be done according to the Quran - what I am arguing is that this is how Muhammad performed salah. I believe that, as someone who knew the Quran better than any other, he combined all verses calling for timed worship - tasbih, salah, reading, dhikr, etc. - and created a form of prayer that includes all of these aspects. The traditional salah includes all of this, in all the timings mentioned.
It's my belief that if you read the Quran as thoroughly as Muhammad and spotted every timed decree, and then went home and tried to do all the necessary dhikr, all the necessary tasbih, you would largely end up with Muhammad's version of prayer.

EDIT Oh, and you haven't responded to my debunking of your alternate definitions of sujood - turning towards, acknowleding, etc etc. The Quran already had words for all of these.

[Wakas]

peace ths,

The reason I did not correct or point out your flaws because there were too many, and it would have been time-consuming for me. You are free to take on board what I have said or disregard it (not only in this thread, but others also). Same applies to readers of the forum.

Feel free to consult an Arabic teacher.

Thanks for answering. As I suspected, the only evidence you have is that according to your knowledge of Arabic it is possible/likely. I assume if you had found anyone or book claiming as you have, you would have referenced it. Of course, this is not even mentioning the validity of your alternative version, just the grammar aspect.

You may be interested to know, that I am currently working on several sub-articles to the one I posted on Quranic words/terms recently, one of which is SuJuD. GW, I will finish it within a month or two.

[unknownuser]

Peace ths.

Well, first off, I had a read through all the arguments against physical salah before undertaking this project.

Good. Its important to read arguments for and against something before accepting it.

Can't you see that you are forcing your own interpretation onto the entire Quran?? Can't you see that you have not applied any methodology??

The methodology I use is simply and practical. I cross-reference words and concepts. And use a contextual approach when analyzing the quranic laws and ideas. I don't need to force any interpretation on the Quran because the Quran explains itself. All the evidence for Salat is in the Quran.

Also, there have been countless wise and educated scholars of Islam, and none of them ever questioned the physical aspect of salah. So I find it difficult to believe that a bunch of guys on freeminds 'cracked' the true meaning of the Quran - especially after I just debunked their suggestions for the "true" meanings of salah (ie. turning towards, acknowledging, etc.)

I appreciate the works of many scholars, and I am eager to learn their ideas. However, none of the scholars are perfect. And none of the scholars have learned everything about the Quran. So I don't like to appeal to authority. And I never put any scholar on pedestal. Every decade something new is discovered about the Quran. The quran is dynamic and flexible, and i think every generation will discover things about it that the past generations did not know. Some of the greatest scholars, did not know that qibla is not physical, and that pilgrimage to mecca is not a quranic concept (it has nothing to do with the teachings of the Quran).

One more thing, the Quran uses metonyms many many times. I believe in Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. And the simplest explanation for salah is that it is in fact a physical prayer as indicated by many verses, but that there are some verses where wordcraft is used, such as metonyms.

I like occam's razor, and I also believe in simplicity. And i know that the simplest explanation often is the correct one. But often is not the same as always. And when it comes to salat, it is a wide and comprehensive concept, so I believe, it should be studied integratively.

Edip-Layth say

Sala prayer observed properly keeps away from immorality and crimes (2945)

I agree that if salat is observed properly, it will keep people away from immorality and crimes. However, prayer alone, can never keep people away from immorality and crimes. Prayer alone can not make a person recognize the difference between right and wrong. Many mullahs and sheiks observe prayer properly, does this make them higly moral? You should ask yourself this question. To know the difference between right and wrong, a person needs to know the laws of god. A person needs to know the natural laws of mankind. A person needs to have knowledge about what is moral and immoral. And all the laws of God does not exist in the ritual prayer. So ritual prayer is not enough if someone wants to be a moral human being. If ritual prayer alone would keep people away from morality and crimes, you could teach people to forget the quran, forget all knowledge, and only pray. Would only praying, keep people away from immorality and crimes? Off course not. So by using logic, we can see that ritual prayer alone can not keep away from immorality and crimes.

But what is supremely illogical to me is to assume that we have had the wrong interpretation for 1400 years and that freeminds has 'cracked' it, despite the fact that hundreds of scholars have noticed this problem in the past and thought nothing of it.

Your argument holds little weight. For hundreds of years all kinds of people, including intellectuals, believed that the earth was flat. But that does not make it a fact, that does not make it true. The majority of scholars also believe that malaika were angels, or if you will physical beings. But that does not make it a fact. From my understanding of the quran malaika is controllers/hidden laws of nature.

The majority of scientists, and the most famous scientists in the world also believe in the theory of evolution, and has not noticed problems with the theory, or acknowledged its logical cracks. But even dough the majority of scientists believe the theory of evolution is true, it does not make it true. The idea that apes were ancestors of human beings, is based on falsehood. And this is proven by archeology. So your arguments is weak.

Birds and animals do not have free will, and know their salat because it is hardwired into their instinct - humans have free will and must choose to perform it.

I agree. And I have already mentioned this in the thread "my view on salat". Yes, humans must choose to perform it by using the quran alone, not by using sunna and hadith and not by praying the sunni, shia or zoroastrian way.

[ths]

Salaam Wakas, I decided to explain to you the preposition (not pronoun as I wrote before) issue since I have the time right now, just to get it over with..

So in Arabic prepositions (huroof al-jarr) can rotate. They aren't as fixed as in English.

So in 2573 we have the following

Shakir And they who, when reminded of the communications of their Lord, do not fall down thereat deaf and blind.
Arberry who, when they are reminded of the signs of their Lord, fall not down thereat deaf and blind;
Pickthall And those who, when they are reminded of the revelations of their Lord, fall not deaf and blind thereat.
Yusuf Ali Those who, when they are admonished with the Signs of their Lord, droop not down at them as if they were deaf or blind;

So in this case, we have a rotating harf jarr that doesn't mean "on", but "min ithrihaa" - as a result of it

This is shown elsewhere in the Quran

5113

They are saying and so we would be witnesses "on her" - ie. the miracle.

Shakir and that we may be of the witnesses to it.
Arberry and that we may be among its witnesses.
Pickthall and that thereof we may be witnesses.
Yusuf Ali and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle.

So again we have 3alayhaa (on her), and yet the most appropriate translation is "witnesses to the miracle"

728

Shakir And when they commit an indecency they say We found our fathers doing this
Arberry And whenever they commit an indecency they say, 'We found our fathers practising it
Pickthall And when they do some lewdness they say We found our fathers doing it
Yusuf Ali When they do aught that is shameful, they say "We found our fathers doing so

Literal And if they made/did an enormous/atrocious deed , they said "We found our fathers on her

Were their fathers literally on the shameful deed? Of course not! They found their fathers at it.

12105

shakir And how many a sign in the heavens and the earth which they pass by, yet they turn aside from it.
arberry How many a sign there is in the heavens and in the earth that they pass by, turning away from it!
pickthall How many a portent is there in the heavens and the earth which they pass by with face averted!
yusuf ali And how many Signs in the heavens and the earth do they pass by? Yet they turn (their faces) away from them!

Literal And how many a sign/verse in the skies and the earth, do they pass on her? and they are from it objecting/opposing

And from what I can tell, there are many more similar verses in the Quran.

The point is, that you would never translate these verses any differently, so why do you insist on forcing an interpretation on 2573, when it follows the same principles as these?

You can read more about it here. Just scroll down to where it says

If you find anything on this in English, let me know.

EDIT

I assume if you had found anyone or book claiming as you have, you would have referenced it.

Hahahahahahah! This is coming from a lone-ranger, non-Arabic speaker who thinks he has the truth on salah and sujood and who thinks he has corrected a thousand years worth of linguists and poets! This is from someone who is part of a cult of about 1000? maximum? people who don't believe in the traditional salah. This is from someone who cannot find a single scholar to support his perverted views on the Quran! Classic!

Go ask any neighborhood sheikh what that verse means and they will corroborate what I've said.
Now go and ask them how many of them think sujood means "to acknowledge" and nothing more - and then come and tell me I have no scholarly backing.

[ths]

Salaam David,

I appreciate your comments.

Firstly,

Some of the greatest scholars, did not know that qibla is not physical, and that pilgrimage to mecca is not a quranic concept (it has nothing to do with the teachings of the Quran).

That is a pretty big assumption you're making there. But we'll discuss that another time.

I like occam's razor, and I also believe in simplicity. And i know that the simplest explanation often is the correct one. But often is not the same as always. And when it comes to salat, it is a wide and comprehensive concept, so I believe, it should be studied integratively.

Agreed. Which is why I tried to find in historical resources any references to the "change" in salah from a mental to a physical one. I don't know if you read this so I'll quote myself again

I am not arguing that this is how salah should be done according to the Quran - what I am arguing is that this is how Muhammad performed salah. I believe that, as someone who knew the Quran better than any other, he combined all verses calling for timed worship - tasbih, salah, reading, dhikr, etc. - and created a form of prayer that includes all of these aspects. The traditional salah includes all of this, in all the timings mentioned.
It's my belief that if you read the Quran as thoroughly as Muhammad and spotted every timed decree, and then went home and tried to do all the necessary dhikr, all the necessary tasbih, you would largely end up with Muhammad's version of prayer.

As to this

I agree that if salat is observed properly, it will keep people away from immorality and crimes. However, prayer alone, can never keep people away from immorality and crimes. Prayer alone can not make a person recognize the difference between right and wrong. Many mullahs and sheiks observe prayer properly, does this make them higly moral? You should ask yourself this question. To know the difference between right and wrong, a person needs to know the laws of god. A person needs to know the natural laws of mankind. A person needs to have knowledge about what is moral and immoral. And all the laws of God does not exist in the ritual prayer. So ritual prayer is not enough if someone wants to be a moral human being. If ritual prayer alone would keep people away from morality and crimes, you could teach people to forget the quran, forget all knowledge, and only pray. Would only praying, keep people away from immorality and crimes? Off course not. So by using logic, we can see that ritual prayer alone can not keep away from immorality and crimes.

Prayer alone won't teach you right from wrong. Whether done correctly or incorrectly. But that doesn't mean that it isn't an integral part of the Quran and the deen, and diluting the meaning of the word salah to fit some kind of all-encompassing interpretation won't help either.

If someone wants to be a moral human being, they need much more than the Quran. I am not denying that. But that isn't the point. Will making regular tasbih throughout the day or making regular dhikr throughout the day make a person supremely moral? Of course not! Would it make you more moral? Yes.

Your argument holds little weight. For hundreds of years all kinds of people, including intellectuals, believed that the earth was flat. But that does not make it a fact, that does not make it true. The majority of scholars also believe that malaika were angels, or if you will physical beings. But that does not make it a fact. From my understanding of the quran malaika is controllers/hidden laws of nature.

The majority of scientists, and the most famous scientists in the world also believe in the theory of evolution, and has not noticed problems with the theory, or acknowledged its logical cracks. But even dough the majority of scientists believe the theory of evolution is true, it does not make it true. The idea that apes were ancestors of human beings, is based on falsehood. And this is proven by archeology. So your arguments is weak.

I'm sorry but this argument holds even less weight. Science and evolution are one thing, and Arabic another. We are constantly growing in our knowledge of science and biology - but the people of Muhammad's time were at the pinnacle of knowledge in Arabic linguistics. We have not grown in our knowledge since then, we are simply re-hashing and reinterpreting concepts and words that have been interpreted before.

Yes, humans must choose to perform it by using the quran alone, not by using sunna and hadith and not by praying the sunni, shia or zoroastrian way.

Who said that it is a sunni, shia, or zoroastrian way? The Quran tells us that every community has received their own messengers. Couldn't these be vestiges of that??

1636

Indeed, We sent forth among every nation a Messenger

287

And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him.

The problem with salah is that it is vast, complex concept, and people have been confused by certain metonymical, metaphorical verses. But there is overwhelming evidence that salah is physical. If salah were simply sitting and thinking about God, or sitting and reading the Quran, how is that any better than the traditional salah??

How does that incorporate sujood, rukoo3, and qiyaam? Or are we now going to go through every word in the Quran and find alternate meanings? Isn't it supremely ironic that a bunch of people on free-minds who don't even speak Arabic are going to correct a long line of poets and linguists? And I am the illogical one?!

Can you explain what your conception of salah and sujood are so that we can compare them to what is stated in the Quran and to the traditional salah?

[unknownuser]

Salaam ths

Thanks for your comments

Who said that it is a sunni, shia, or zoroastrian way? The Quran tells us that every community has received their own messengers. Couldn't these be vestiges of that??

The generations that came after the messengers, lost their Salat

Quran 1959
Then, generations came after them who lost the contact prayer, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.

As we can see from the verse above, the generations who came after the messengers, lost their salat. Therefore the salat of shia and sunni can not have been preserved.

If salah were simply sitting and thinking about God, or sitting and reading the Quran, how is that any better than the traditional salah??

There is a difference between ritual prayer and salat because salat is none of the above. Salat is a comprehensive concept. Salat is not just reading the quran, or thinking about god. Salat is reading the Quran, and practicing the quran; following its principles and values. Salat demands taking full responsibility for ones actions. Its a divine system. And its comprehensive/wide as I have already mentioned.

How does that incorporate sujood, rukoo3, and qiyaam? Or are we now going to go through every word in the Quran and find alternate meanings? Isn't it supremely ironic that a bunch of people on free-minds who don't even speak Arabic are going to correct a long line of poets and linguists? And I am the illogical one?!

First of, some people on free-minds speak Arabic. Second, some people want to learn more arabic. Third, language is not a barrier for understanding the Quran. The Quran is a spiritual scripture, and its words trancends above language. Fourth, we have to be patient if we want to understand the Salat. It took me a lot of time to connect the dots. And I am still learning. I don't claim to have all the answers.

Can you explain what your conception of salah and sujood are so that we can compare them to what is stated in the Quran and to the traditional salah?

I have already explained it in the thread "My view on Salat".

I am curious, how do you perform Salat? Can you tell us how you perform Salat step by step, with back up from Quranic verses?

[Wakas]

peace ths,

It is unfortunate that you have resorted to ad hominem attacks whilst trying to explain something to me. But what is perhaps even more unfortunate is that once again, your inability to read has resulted in explaining not what I highlighted. Let me re-quote what I said

Re 2573

However, The feminine pronoun "ha" here can refer to the act of reminding, and not on the ayaat.

Please state your source for the above statement. Thanks.

You cite no evidence for your above claim, and when asked for it, you again, cite none. Why not simply say something like according to my understanding of Arabic grammar what I said is theoretically possible, but I have not come across a source saying what I have with regard to this point.

I would have accepted that, end of story.

[SarahY]

Why mutawatir isn't the greatest method, is simply forgery.

If you read on the history of hadith, hadiths were passed down not just be generations of family but by story tellers, sufism has a big significance in this. People also openly admitted to the forgery of spreading hadiths. I know you're talking about "actions" but hear me out.

What makes a hadith/action mutawattir? that so many people know it that it's "impossible" for it to be an error. that's not a true argument considering all the influences that happen in time.

Let me give you a scenario example. Imam malik collected ahadith of people in medinah. he believed the practices of people in medinah is most pure most true. So from then on in he maintained practices from them, people as a whole also revered him and followed his actions. so much so that the caliph at the time asked him to put his work at the kaabah for all people to see and follow. he refused and said along the lines of "one man can be wrong, and it wouldn't be wise to subjugate a whole community by one mans opinion". wise words, imagine today if we refuse his work with that claim? people will say we are defaming scholarly work!

I'll argue about imam malik some more, his work is one of the earliest work on hadith, yet his work has forged and broken chains. forged and broken chains = not sahih. his work is of the early work if his work has crookedness what of the future generations?

you might argue again there are numerous hadiths so many hadiths that support these actions. People in the past admitted to forgery of hadith to bring people closer to God! imagine of things not admitted? so more hadiths spread more of them became popular, practices got adopted. but it's in hadith must be true!!! it's mentioned so many times it's gotta be a mutawatir.

if you're going to take mutawatir action to be your justification, it would be almost impossible to separate what was or wasn't influenced by hadith and also what really happened.

Quran is also a document, a book not just a mutawatir tradition.

I know it might be said with the 1000's of hadiths that support a physical action etc how can it be totally wrong. how can the method be totally turned upside down??

God knows the truth but i'll mention also political powers had influence on muslim practices

peace

[Fusion]

Dear All,

The topic came out in my search for something else but I read throug and I found the discussion very useful, yet I see that no further discussions were made. As I understand the debate was physical aspect of Prayer vs the true meaning of it. Furthermore the concept that the prayer muslims perform today have been almost unchanged more or less in its physical nature and it is more likely how Prophet had prayed and then the concept of the physical prayer being a ritual hence could not what Quran attributed to Salat.
I am also puzzled as to the following as I could see both parties have valid opinions (ths vs others).

QURAN mentioning physical ritual.
I believe there are many verses in quran which indicate that many nations have been practising ritual prayers i.e. sujud, qayam, ruku etc. because Quran does talk about group of people performing this act as "congregational prayer", such as ruko ma alrakaeen etc.. So I believe there has to be a phsycal prayer existence, are we denying this fact? if not then that means how one performs the salat ritual as "congregational prayer" if there is no clear definition of it? One cant just go to mosque and start performing these acts as he wishes, has to be synch?
The verse 629-10 is surely asking people to leave a phsycal act (trading) and go to perform friday salat? should we take this as a non physical some sort of meditation order from God?
The above is not my conclusion, am only refering it here for others to correct me or guide me please.

The other aspects of the ritual prayer which is practised today and claimed to be "mutawatir" are several words that we speak during the prayer out of quran. For example the prayer to the prophet. Almost every muslim whe he/she prays towards the end, is sending prayers to the prophet and his aal similar to god did so for Ibrahim and his aal
My only question, may God forgive me, is that has the prophet asked muslims to do that? if yes doe it not seem self praise act by the prophet? we are praying to God almighty and all praises to be for Him alone.
Furthermore did it really work? I mean the Aal of Ibrahim was known to have been very blessed and successful? but did prophet Aal reached the same status? history tells us that prophet aal has very unfortunate events (event of qarbala). So point is incurrent time, prophet is not alive, is it still significant to utter the prayer to prophet and his aal in tashahud?? whats the point here?

I have more questions on this but appreciate if I get a reply on the above

Regards

[Wakas]

peace fusion, all,

Thanks for reviving this thread. Upon re-reading it perhaps I was a little harsh in my criticism of ths' work. I think it is a worthy read but of course that does not mean I agree with everything in it.

You may find these posts useful
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607589.msg371591#msg371591
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610353.msg419239#msg419239

[Fusion]

Thank you Waqas for the links, and I will certainly go reading them in detail.

Cheers