Scholarly article proves earliest Muslims only did salat twice per day!
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peace,
You did not mention about what the article says about the pagan practices at the Kaba which are pretty similar to today's practices!
I thought this is fairly well known amongst members. It's been discussed on the forum. This was actually one of the most disturbing things I have researched in my study of Islam. I recommend anyone to study up on the Kaba structure and the rituals associated with it and you may be shocked to discover they are almost entirely pagan in origin (the shape, its orientation, the cloth over it, the black stone, kissing of it, its position, its enclosure, spinning around it etc), and also the Traditional Hajj rituals. It is argued however that pagans also done them but that's because they corrupted their true meanings and practice and this was corrected/purified by Quran/Muhammad/etc.
I always knew that history would back up the muslims. It seems that there could well have been a power struggle over ownership of Mecca and that this materialised in the form of the hadith.
One day, and I hope it is soon through someone such as Aisha Musa, the definitive book of hadith will be produced. This book will study the factionalism that is present in the hadith and use this to map out the sectarian struggles that were clearly present after the death of Muhammad (alluded to in the Quran).
This has largely already been done in the works of Ignaz Goldziher, Joseph Schacht, GHA Juynboll, Fazlur Rahman, John Burton, Patricia Crone, Michael Cook, John Wansbrough, William Montgomery Watt, Norman Calder, Daniel Brown, Aisha Musa, Sir Sayed Ahmed Khan, Kassim Ahmad, Parwez and many many many more. Taken collectively, these works tear into Traditional Ahadith like you would not believe and give a ton of interesting info, even I was surprised by some of it. There is so much info out there. People really need to spread it.
Here is something that might surprise people, in perhaps the most recent hadith overview book written (2009), Jonathon Brown (regarded as a Traditional Muslim scholar) states "Islamic modernism and its 'Quran only' trend have thrived among Western Muslim scholars" and I don't see that trend slowing anytime soon.
I strongly recommend you read this summary by Herbert Berg
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601291.0Make no mistake about it, this is not about Traditional Islam V Quranists, this is about Traditional Islam V Information Age. Whoever puts the most quality info out there will triumph. In the past, Saudi Arabia with its Wahabi Islam and others who relied on feeding the masses one-sided info to maintain the status quo had the great share of the ouput of info, but in the Information Age with the rise of the internet, the output is turning heavily in our favour.
That is why I urge everyone to keep spreading the info. It is really easy with my practical methods, no experience necessary, just spare-time. If you want to take action, personal message me. If you prefer pipe dreams, dont message me.
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peace all,
Very recently, by chance, I came across an entry in Ibn Kathir's tafsir in which he stated there were only two salat per day, with a possible night vigil during the night, in early islam, prior to the so-called "ascension / night journey" (isra and miraj), after which it became 5.
I was somewhat stunned as I had never read this before, and when I posted this info in the forum, it seems many/all were unaware of this too. After doing some research I found the following article by Uri Rubin which proves beyond doubt, from the Traditional Islam sources themselves, that it was only two salat (what they call "prayer" per day in the earliest days.If some of you are wondering why this is so significant, it is because most long term forum members here (including myself) have thought that The Quran only mentions a minimum of two daily regular/timed salat/bond per day.
http//www.filedropper.com/uri-rubin-morning-evening-prayers
click
It is very very interesting.
Note there is significant variance/contradiction in the timings and sources in the above article (as would be expected in hearsay), but the point of two still stands.
Peace Wakas,
Good job Wakas! I can almost feel you excitement. Finally, a major accomplishment!
You have successfully validated the two salat theory (hearsay) via the use of another hearsay. Wow!
This is a perfect logic. There is no two way about it. Here is how it goes
Root meaning dictionary (hearsay) produces two salat theory from the Quran.
The Quran contains the Truth and nothing but the Truth. Therefore, Quran would not validate the faulty two salat theory. No matter how hard one tries it.
Therefore, this thread opted for another hearsay and showed
Hearsay = Hearsay (Perfect logic)
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Peace all
Mushu
You?re right in the bulk of hadith narrations they contain other prayers, however academics mention muslims prayed 2 times a day, and then additional prayers were included i.e. through the isra and maraj story making it 5. Also many arabs were known to detested the prayer.
Let me share some passages.
?one thing can certainly be said that the arabs resisted this institution of muhammed and that the prophet found it hard work to popularize prayer among his compatriots in the sense understood by him.? This aversion is mirrored in the muslim legend on the institution of prayer.? p.41. The legend is commonly known of isra and miraj
?muslim prayer existed in the community even before the official institution of the rite. It is said that they hid in the mountain gorges near Mecca in order to pray, and once when they were surprised in their worship a bloody quarrel ensued. The pious sa?d b abi waqqas took up a jaw-bone of a camel and with it beat one of the unbelievers..?
?the least aversion was shown towards the duty of morning prayer (al-duha), and in the early days of islam, before the duty of prayer was extended to five times a day, the muslims are said to have observed only two canonical times of prayer morning and afternoon, the three othertimes have been added later."
42-23from ignaz's book.
also this is interesting
Ibn hajar, IV, p. 700; Mawaqit alsalat, no.19 where abu hurayra reports the saying of the prophet, ?the most irksome prayer to the Munafiqun is the evening prayer (al-isha) and the morning prayer (al-fajr). O, if only they knew of the merits of these two times of prayer?The point is the existence of 2 prayers were the norm in islamic history.
Guest
what?s with the sarcasm?
If 2 times a day is hearsay what is the valid number?
If studying Quran using ?the root of the word? as well as other methods is considered hearsay how do you study?
If you?re academically capable and know of better methods then brother, don?t conceal knowledge
The Quran contains the Truth and nothing but the Truth. Therefore, Quran would not validate the faulty two salat theory. No matter how hard one tries it.
Quran won't validate anything faulty, you're right. so it'll only validate the true salat theory so bring your proof of the true un-faulty Quranic theory that disproves the 2.
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Guest
If 2 times a day is hearsay what is the valid number?Five salat a day is the truth.
If studying Quran using ?the root of the word? as well as other methods is considered hearsay how do you study?
This is the mother question. And I am surprise you don?t know the answer to it!
The root meaning approach = Witch hunting approach = Devils approach
With this approach root meaning dictionary defines the Quran! You are seeing the Quran through a faulty dictionary. Just like you can see the Quran through Bukhari?s eyes.
Root meaning dictionary overrides the Quran just as Bukhari override the Quran.
Learn the language however you can but when you study the Quran you rely on Allah for meaning. I mean a total reliance on Him. Allah may grant you the understanding or He may grant it to some other believer.
With your approach you are replacing Allah with root meaning dictionary. And that is devils way.
You may have to stay up many a nights imploring Allah to get correct understanding of some verses. And this is the correct way. As you know Allah is the teacher of the Quran.
If you?re academically capable and know of better methods then brother, don?t conceal knowledge
Rely on Allah period.
Quran won't validate anything faulty, you're right. so it'll only validate the true salat theory so bring your proof of the true un-faulty Quranic theory that disproves the 2.
Allah teaches salat via imams. Previous generation learned salat from imams and propagated it to us. It is preserved just like Quran. Can you cite me a verse that says we are to learn salat from the Quran.
I don?t have to disprove the 2 salat theory, Wakas did it!
Hearsay = Hearsay!
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If 5 is truth, prove it.
People on this forum are not the only people who use root meaning to understand Arabic, to understand Quran.
Tell me if you dunno Arabic how do you learn about the language to understand it? sorry but i believe the Quran is in arabic for a reason 122, 16103, 20113, 433, 4144 etc it's not just God's inspired gift on Arab hearts.
Besides sole reliance isn't on the dictionary, it's a tool. is not the Quran for those who think, for those who ponder, for those who use reason?
so you totally rely on Allah? wow mashallah! you're so awesome. who would think a muslim would actually rely on Allah? subhanallah i never knew that thanks for enlightening me.
so you must have a better connection to Allah because you spend nights imploring Allah, tell me how does Allah enlighten you, do you dream about it? do you get a feeling? do you do istikhara? is it all in your head? Seriously true question if you can clarify it would help me dearly because who knows you may have a better connection to God and sole reliance on God in finding meaning that's amazing. i never met anyone who ever said that. did nothing all they did was implore Allah and BAM! became enlightened. so you must be something special God maybe inspires you with a wahi, if what you say is true. So how do you know you're right? what certainty do you get or how do you get it? what kind of spiritual enlightenment is it, how do you know you have it ? because it's definitely not 3lm el-yaqeen - knowledge of certainty.
BTW which imams are you talking about? the 12 infallibles, the 14 infallibles, the imam in the masjid, the history of the 4 madhab imams? so many imams it's very confusing, clarify which imams does God teach so we know what imams to go to?
When you cite me a verse that says God teaches salat via imams I'll let you know.
Wakas was simply showing how muslims in the past prayed 2 times a day. he was showing a correlation between the findings of 2 salat in the Quran and what happened. What people did in the past. doesn't necessarily mean it's proof for 2 salat theory. its merely information for interests.
but you seem to comprehend it as hearsay when i haven't even seen Wakas justify because traditionalists did it it must be true. i mean. maybe i have poor reading or something but i never saw that.
Relying on Allah is what mumineen do, no one is doubting that. Allah also gave us the ability to think and use reason, do you doubt this?
in the end God knows best. but i disagree with you so it would be nice if you can clarify so i can understand your position better.
Salam.
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If 5 is truth, prove it.
Prophet Muhammad was a Prophet, messenger and a true leader for the believers. He was given the wisdom and the Book. He was guided by Allah. Prophet Muhammad established the salat timing and the correct way of performing the salat. He instituted 5 daily salat. After Prophet Muhammad died, his follower (believers) continued to follow Prophet Muhammad?s way (salat, hajj?..). Via this process of physical transmission, we learned to perform salat correctly. This is how Allah preserved the salat for us. Also, please note that while this transmission process is continuing the believing community is getting larger and larger. Once the community gets large and dispersed over the land, it becomes impossible to introduce distortion into their rituals. Distortion would have been vehemently resisted, anyone proposing such distortion would have faced the punishment described in the verse
533 - The just retribution for those who fight GOD and His messenger, and commit horrendous crimes, is to be killed, or crucified, or to have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or to be banished from the land. This is to humiliate them in this life, then they suffer a far worse retribution in the Hereafter.
Thus, salat timing, salat structure, and the five salat per day is preserved. It will stay that way until the end of this world.
Your attempt to destroy the truth will most certainly fail. People in the past has tried it but failed.
Since you believe that satanic distortion was introduce in the process described above, you have to prove the timeframe of distortion, how the believing communities that resisted the distortion were eliminated from the face of the earth, and who did it.
People on this forum are not the only people who use root meaning to understand Arabic, to understand Quran.
What is WRONG is WRONG! Regardless of who uses it. Majority of people are in hell!
Tell me if you dunno Arabic how do you learn about the language to understand it? sorry but i believe the Quran is in arabic for a reason 122, 16103, 20113, 433, 4144 etc it's not just God's inspired gift on Arab hearts.
You are refusing to accept the verse 552 ? (Allah is the) Teacher of the Quran.
What you are implying is ?root meaning is the teacher of the Quran?. Thus negating the verse 552.
Another faulty logic of yours is fully proficient in Arabic language = proficient in Quran. This is anti Quranic.Who validate the root meaning book? Is it free of error? Does satan has no input in it?
Besides sole reliance isn't on the dictionary, it's a tool. is not the Quran for those who think, for those who ponder, for those who use reason?
You guys are producing hadith after hadith with this dictionary. You guys are making mockery of the Quran with this dictionary.
There are good and sincere thinking and bad thinking. The Quran is for good thinking people.
so you totally rely on Allah? wow mashallah! you're so awesome. who would think a muslim would actually rely on Allah? subhanallah i never knew that thanks for enlightening me.
Your action shows that you are not relying on Allah totally.
so you must have a better connection to Allah because you spend nights imploring Allah, tell me how does Allah enlighten you, do you dream about it? do you get a feeling? do you do istikhara? is it all in your head? Seriously true question if you can clarify it would help me dearly because who knows you may have a better connection to God and sole reliance on God in finding meaning that's amazing. i never met anyone who ever said that. did nothing all they did was implore Allah and BAM! became enlightened. so you must be something special God maybe inspires you with a wahi, if what you say is true. So how do you know you're right? what certainty do you get or how do you get it? what kind of spiritual enlightenment is it, how do you know you have it ? because it's definitely not 3lm el-yaqeen - knowledge of certainty.
You are lashing out like a cornered bully because I have exposed your falsehood.
A truthful person would recognize the truth.
One cannot make a seer out of a blind person.BTW which imams are you talking about? the 12 infallibles, the 14 infallibles, the imam in the masjid, the history of the 4 madhab imams? so many imams it's very confusing, clarify which imams does God teach so we know what imams to go to?
When you cite me a verse that says God teaches salat via imams I'll let you know.
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
Wakas was simply showing how muslims in the past prayed 2 times a day. he was showing a correlation between the findings of 2 salat in the Quran and what happened. What people did in the past. doesn't necessarily mean it's proof for 2 salat theory. its merely information for interests.
but you seem to comprehend it as hearsay when i haven't even seen Wakas justify because traditionalists did it it must be true. i mean. maybe i have poor reading or something but i never saw that.
Read his post again. You need to read slow and comprehend before reacting.
Bad imam will lead you to hell! -
You were asked to provide proof, which you haven't done.
he can't, he doesnt do proof just insults and tells you satan has you and various other inventions he makes up, even after claiming this
A righteous person would have said this is how I do it and that it consistent with Prophet Muhammad?s way for such and such reason. Allah has already exposed you for what you are.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601295.210 -
You were asked to provide proof, which you haven't done.
Quranic PROOF!
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
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he can't, he doesnt do proof just insults and tells you satan has you and various other inventions he makes up, even after claiming this
A righteous person would have said this is how I do it and that it consistent with Prophet Muhammad?s way for such and such reason. Allah has already exposed you for what you are.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601295.210And you are a lost cause. You cannot comprehend! Allah has sealed your heart!
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Quranic PROOF!
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
I have told you before but you are blind to the verses
21.72 And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).
your imams in verse 21.73 are Isaac and Jacob, open you eyes and stop trying to mislead people
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And you are a lost cause. You cannot comprehend! Allah has sealed your heart!
I seem to comprehend a lot more than you do who cant even look at the preceeding verse to see who the 'them' is that He made Imams and think every Imam gets some message from God! Seems the seal is on your heart and eyes
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I have told you before but you are blind to the verses
21.72 And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).
your imams in verse 21.73 are Isaac and Jacob, open you eyes and stop trying to mislead people
I keep telling you that you do not comprehend! And you keep validating my claim again and again. You love to be a laughingstock. Bukhari?s comments on women are directed to people like you. You give bad name to women!
Here goes the baby step again. Hope it sinks in your head.
Yes, Allah taught Isaac and Jacob the religious rituals like salat and zakat. And his follower learned from him and passed on. That is how Allah teaches us salat, via imams. If the salat is to be learned from a book then there would be no need to teach Isaac .. the salat. In fact this would contradict verse 2173. And that is what you are trying to preach here Quran is a contradictory book. See how Allah exposes your hypocrisy.
You advocate a leaderless system, a satanic system, a chaotic system. This system will take you right to hell. A deserving place for those who do not take heed.
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I keep telling you that you do not comprehend! And you keep validating my claim again and again. You love to be a laughingstock. Bukhari?s comments on women are directed to people like you. You give bad name to women!
Here goes the baby step again. Hope it sinks in your head.
Yes, Allah taught Isaac and Jacob the religious rituals like salat and zakat. And his follower learned from him and passed on. That is how Allah teaches us salat, via imams. If the salat is to be learned from a book then there would be no need to teach Isaac .. the salat. In fact this would contradict verse 2173. And that is what you are trying to preach here Quran is a contradictory book. See how Allah exposes your hypocrisy.
You advocate a leaderless system, a satanic system, a chaotic system. This system will take you right to hell. A deserving place for those who do not take heed.
Oh please! Stop with the self righteous act and unrighteous slander and use your brain for once!
At least you had to admit the verses you are misleading with to 'prove' we learn from IMAMS was actually talking about Isaac and Jacob and not the Imam at the mosque and that has pinched so much you have to start with the satanic crap.
I advocate what Quran advocates you satan following unrighteous biggoted hypocrite.
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Quranic PROOF!
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
you were saying before that you learn salat from watching your family and neighbours. Oh absolutely no room for error there is there, was dad an iman according to you?
I keep telling you that you do not comprehend! And you keep validating my claim again and again. You love to be a laughingstock. Bukhari?s comments on women are directed to people like you. You give bad name to women!
You say this then in the next sentence you agree with what I said. You have a sickness and you really need to sort it out.It is very well documented here how many times I have asked YOU to explain something but you never have and all I get is verbal abuse. I have asked you to teach me and all I get is verbal abuse. You are telling me I don't comprehend something you have not explained and that is totally against Quran. If I ask you then you should explain and all you do is abuse and insult. Other people are now experiencing the same abuse and lack o answers. You confirm each post that I am so thankful I found and read Quran before I met any people like you and I thank God daily for that. I wonder how many you have turned away from Islam by your attitude, your master will be so proud.
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What proof do you have other than muslim practices around the world today, pray 5 times a day? what proof do you have that this is what the prophet instituted? Nothing other than this is what people do today?
I?m sure his followers continued to follow the Prophets way, i?m sure other followers also included innovations in following the prophets way.
So you believe the ritual salat is 100% accurate? In all aspects?
As well as hajj practices? 100%?I?m not sure how much on Islamic history you have read though people distorted practices to suit their need/wants.
Lots of people took Quran as a joke and preferred poetry over it. So in regards to 533 it might have moved some hearts not necessarily all.
You make the assumption that in the time people were so genuine there were many hypocrites and fasdeen.
It?s preserved because that?s your belief without any proof other than muslims in ALL generations must have practiced the same salat because they?d go to Hell otherwise and other muslims would have beat them.
i?m not destroying nothing, truth will always prevail in the end. What you fail to realise is the logic of your argument.
If you read a book and there is a word you have no idea what it means God forbid you from looking it up! Wrong is Wrong! You cannot think! you can only pray to God for guidance! Guidance for what that word means.
See the logic? Who says using a dictionary is the sole way, the only way and the best way?
No, you?re assuming root meaning is the teacher of the Quran. If one is imperfect and seeks help by God?s will where is the wrong there?
Also fully proficient in Arabic doesn?t mean proficient in Quran. So no my logic isn?t faulty it?s your assumption that is faulty.
Is your mind free from error? does shaytan not whisper to you? Are you ma3soom? should I ask you for guidance with your special connection to God? Who validates your logic? The masses? Or wait.. you said majority of people are going to hell..
I tell you the dictionary is a tool, you say it?s a hadith it?s mockery. This whole discourse is a hadith. The Quran is hadith. The books in the library are hadith, a conversation you have with a muslim or anyone is hadith. You?re point? Do you think hadith = evil? If you do you need to sort out your logic and understanding of hadith. Tell me how do you understand any of the Quran ANY OF THE QURAN? Who taught you it? Do you know Arabic? Who taught them language? Is the language classical? What English interpretations do you use? Are they free from satan? Do you just read mindlessly and aim to get guidance? You take mockery of what God ordained. God didn?t create the universe for us to look at it and do nothing.
There are good and sincere thinking and bad thinking. The Quran is for good thinking people.
Are you calling me bad thinking? Some interesting covert accusations you have, very interesting that you can actually know my thinking and it is for ?good thinking people? so the assumption is Quran is only for SOME people not ALL mankind. Interesting indeed.
Your action shows that you are not relying on Allah totally.
Your response shows the lack of comprehension you have. If you have an exam do you not study for it? Or do you just rely on Allah for a miracle to give you the correct answers? is life not a test?
You are lashing out like a cornered bully because I have exposed your falsehood.
What falsehood? All you did was have a go at my faith, without proving anything.
If you?re so truthful tell the truth how does GOD inspire you? How do you know truth? You mentioned nothing. So what is the truth.
A truthful person would recognize the truth.
One cannot make a seer out of a blind person.Same can be said to you, your truth is the masses do it, it must be right.
2173 - We made them imams who guided in accordance with our commandments, and we taught them how to work righteousness, and how to observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and the obligatory charity (Zakat). To us, they were devoted worshipers.
Allah teaches imam the salat and we learn from them and pass it on.
Interesting, you know i don?t even need to look up anything from dictionaries or the roots to tell you, you have totally taken that verse out of context. Read the verses above and after.
Bad imam will lead you to hell!
How can you tell if mine is good or bad? Think hard.... did you think yet? That?s right, you can?t. So enough with your talk.
In conclusion, 5 salat theory is apparently truth because Muslims around the world do it and did it (apparently) and other muslims would have punished them if they did otherwise(apparently).
We were talking about hearsay before, hearsay has returned.
You're free to correct the conclusion for appropriate discussion.
peace.
