Non-muslims cannot approach the Sacred Masjid??
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Are the Sunnis right in barring non-Muslims from entering Mecca? I have found 2 pertinent verses regarding this which seem contradictory.
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O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing Wise.
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Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from Allah's way and from the Sacred Mosque which We have made equally for all men, (for) the dweller therein and (for) the visitor, and whoever shall incline therein to wrong unjustly, We will make him taste of a painful chastisement.
Your comments are appreciated.
Peace!
Tony
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Peace be upon you mythdog,
If a temple is destroyed...just rebuild it to more than it was before
couldn't we spend that money in a better way? Why rebuild a "prayer" building when you can use that to feed hungry people, or build a home for someone homeless.
Also, what criteria must you meet in order to be allowed in this "masjid"?
The God does not ask for us to build buildings and keep certain people away, what is the LOGIC in that?
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Peace all!
Kyle
yes kyle only the superior mind , whose reepresentative is the book, will decide who is entering and who is not....and the knowlegeable people will know....we just should be knowledgeable in order to be able to uphold this instruction...
the idolaters are those who should not enter...the criterias are stated throughout the book detaily...simplistically said if someone commits idolatry or more precise associates or makes partners to The God .... of course detail solution or criterias or precisely timing will be found according the situation on the ground... its visible that in a period of time they were allowed to enter it......when the restriction should be set up again depends of the situation on the ground...
mythozDog
yes the book is ambiguous at some places... why the God isnt make it all decisive I have some ideas but its hard to spell them....
the question is very similar to the question why the God has created us? and why He is testing us in this life? What is the purpose of creating evil?..could this world be better place...why The God is hidden, Why He is not manifest in order that all can clerarly see Him...etc..
try these ones....
its for a purpose.... as a test....one who fears The God will be meticulous and careful and approach the words carefully searching for the best meaning...dwelling on what is sure, precise and decisive....and those in whose hearts is deviation will follow what is ambiguous seeking its interpretation and seeking discord or misleading...
see the verse 3/7...
the ambiguity is a natural characteristic of the human speech/language in which the revelation came and not only Quran have it`s ambiguous places... all the books and all the words have it....if we want to understand we will understand, and get the message, but if we dont want to understand properly and if we want to abuse, we will be able to abuse no matter how efforts are made to make things unambiguous...the Quran would be cucumbersome and hard to carry not to speak of reading and studying, in the case that The God detailed the things which could be infered by common sense or from other places who treat other things, but partially, in the same time, treat problems mentioned at these aforementioned places...thus saving space...
excuse my poor english
best wishes, Zlatan
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There should be no criteria. Everyone should be welcome to a place of peace and reflection...as long as they are quiet. People build huge structures and theaters for no more than sports and entertainment.
A thing of beauty is always appreciated by God. I doubt that he would object if man should build a place to meditate or pray as long as it is open to all. -
Zlatan Peace,
It's OK. You did well with your English. If I could only do equally as well with Arabic.
I do not fear God. I love God. There is no need to fear him. He is not a God of vengence but a God of Love. I don't accept a God that stands in judgment. All this is mans interpertation of God and it is usually done to instill fear and subjugation so that they are more easly influenced and controlled. God has no need to inject himself into mankinds trivialities. It is for us to work through. Us to figure out. That is our task and our mission. He knows, ultimatly, we will rise to the occasion and work through our misunderstandings and conflicts. D -
Peace be upon you mythdog,
The God does not ask for us to build buildings and keep certain people away, what is the LOGIC in that?
Idolfree,
I agree with you that there is no LOGIC to keeping select people out of a place of meditation unless they are causing deliberate disruption.
People should not judge other people based on their seperate beliefs in God. You never know who is closer to the Truth...or who might be an Angel unaware! -
Peace to all of you
You never know who is closer to the Truth...or who might be an Angel unaware!
actually we do know... we are given the knowledge.... the book of the God where the truth and who are it`s followers is clearly and detaily spelled out....
best wishes, Zlatan
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actually we do know... we are given the knowledge.... the book of the God where the truth and who are it`s followers is clearly and detaily spelled out....
best wishes, Zlatan
Zlatan, Peace
I respectfully submit that the Holy Books were written by man.... "All of them.
The Bible...the Quran,...the Talmud." Smart men, but non-the-less "men". They say that they were inspired by God. Well, that is what they say... and that was a time ago. Currently, there are no witnesses!You have to look for the hooks hidden in the messages that impart mans personal prejudices, as beliefs, into what they think God would want. All the judgmental and segregation stuff is just mans interpretation of morality. An Evolving God would not possess personal prejudices. Neither would he be so insecure that he would require constant worship and subjugation.
Abraham and Moses God was their interpretation of the one God... they called Jehovah. I'm not saying they are bad or wrong people,...just that their interpretations came into play when trying to realize this Being.
You have to ask these important questions, though, before drawing conclusions. Who was the God of Moses? This Jehovah?
Did he really demand sacrifice of Abraham. The act of sacrifice seems somewhat pagan and most likely mans idea ...not unlike the Aztecs sacrifices on blood alters.That, it would be only with animals... is still in question? When a species such as man occupies a level of dominion, as man does over the animals, it give them an impression of self-importance, and because of it, they think they have the authority by divine birthright. They believe they can actually take a life in ceremony or ritual...and have it be alright... because God would have wanted them to do it! The sacrifice is for him...for the crops...for attonement ...etc,etc.etc???
The American Indians, on-the-other-hand believe that you should only take an animals life for sustenance and then you should thank the animal for it and tell the animal how much you appreciate it's life. They call God ...the Great Spirit.
Different perspectives on the one God or Spirit...Which one of these points of view is closer to the truth? Man should use the brain that God has given him and draw logical conclusions...keep the best of the great religions and discard the rest. And move on! This is the 21 Century. We have to step out of the Dark Ages with religion too.
Sidhartha said it best.
It is proper to doubt. Do not be led by holy scriptures, or by mere logic or inference, or by appearances, or by the authority of religious leaders. But when you realize that something is unwholesome an bad for you, give it up. And when you realize that something is wholesome and good for you, do it.
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Peace be upon you Mythozdog,
I agree with you that there is no LOGIC to keeping select people out of a place of meditation unless they are causing deliberate disruption.
People should not judge other people based on their seperate beliefs in God. You never know who is closer to the Truth...or who might be an Angel unaware!Exactly (except the part about "angels", I understand them to be righteous thoughts, shyateen are unrighteous thoughts)!
Yes, all books are written by men, we have to rely on our intellect. We have to search for contradictons to make sure we are following proper guidance.
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Idolfree! Peace and Happiness to You!
Thoughts are one thing ...and they may come to you as inspiration,...but if they happen to chose to appear as material beings (and there are many references in the Holy books written by man ) who is to say that they are not messengers of some sort? I would not say that.
My experience with God ...or Angels, that I would relate, would fall within your description but those that my Mother, Uncle, and other members of my family would relate could fall the other way. roll
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Peace and hapines be upon you participants of the fm forum
MytozDog wrote
Zlatan, Peace
I respectfully submit that the Holy Books were written by man.... "All
of them.
The Bible...the Quran,...the Talmud." Smart men, but non-the-less "men".
They say that they were inspired by God. Well, that is what they say...
and that was a time ago. Currently, there are no witnesses!Yes i agree not every book which claim is divinely inspired is completely true.
However i believe the book i believe is exception.Of course you may consider it subjective- and really i admit it is very subjective depending of subject who is studying itas the book itself says The God may blind some people not to see it as the guidance but a deceithowever if i stray i am straying to my own detriment and you are not responsible for my deedsbut if the book is true the cruel destiny awaits you.my duty and goal is only to warn you of it not to convince you
As per witnesses there are no witnesses however The God is enough as a witnessI believe the message of the book needs no witnesses to convince of its origin the people who use their reasoning.
You have to look for the hooks hidden in the messages that impart mans
personal prejudices, as beliefs, into what they think God would want.
All the judgmental and segregation stuff is just mans interpretation of
morality. An Evolving God would not possess personal prejudices. Neither
would he be so insecure that he would require constant worship and
subjugation.As for the prejudices i find not any prejudices in the book I believewhat are these prejudices? Can you point to them? The God is not insecure and he needs no worship and subjugation of you its you who are in need of it both. If you are sincere to realize and admit it.
Who was the God of Moses? This Jehovah?
Did he really demand sacrifice of Abraham. The act of sacrifice seems
somewhat pagan and most likely mans idea ...not unlike the Aztecs
sacrifices on blood alters.This was a test.you need to sacrifice to prove your loyalty and sincerity in seving The God..the sacrificing is the best evidence of the love and sincerityand it requires a character to sacrifice
That, it would be only with animals... is still in question? When a
species such as man occupies a level of dominion, as man does over the
animals, it give them an impression of self-importance, and because of
it, they think they have the authority by divine birthright. They
believe they can actually take a life in ceremony or ritual...and have
it be alright... because God would have wanted them to do it! The
sacrifice is for him...for the crops...for attonement ...etc,etc.etc???The American Indians, on-the-other-hand believe that you should only
take an animals life for sustenance and then you should thank the animal
for it and tell the animal how much you appreciate it's life. They call
God ...the Great Spirit.Different perspectives on the one God or Spirit...Which one of these
points of view is closer to the truth? Man should use the brain that God
has given him and draw logical conclusions...keep the best of the great
religions and discard the rest. And move on! This is the 21 Century. We
have to step out of the Dark Ages with religion too.I choose otherwise, I keep the best of my mind and I choose to follow the God`s Book
The book is actually saying to me to use brain in the first place and to draw logical conclusions its one of the reasons i believe it.By doing as you have suggested the follower of the God should leave the God
s guidance for the sake of worshipping ones ego or desireyour mind can not be judge over the God`s book but the book is the judge over your mind and desiresSidhartha said it best.
It is proper to doubt. Do not be led by holy scriptures, or by mere
logic or inference, or by appearances, or by the authority of religious
leaders. But when you realize that something is unwholesome an bad for
you, give it up. And when you realize that something is wholesome and
good for you, do it.Good luck in worshipping the Sidartha and his scripture..I am commanded to totally submit and to serve the Lord of the worlds, one who revealed the Great Reading and who will take your soul.
Thoughts are one thing ...and they may come to you as inspiration,...but
if they happen to chose to appear as material beings (and there are many
references in the Holy books written by man ) who is to say that they
are not messengers of some sort? I would not say that.Yes yes very well noticed .however there are many false messengers.
Do they not look at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and that maybe their hour has come near, then in which speech after this they will believe?(7/185)
best wishes and regards , Zlatan
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Zlatan,
MythozDog wrote
e]>Who was the God of Moses? This Jehovah?Did he really demand sacrifice of Abraham. The act of sacrifice seems
somewhat pagan and most likely mans idea ...not unlike the Aztecs
sacrifices on blood alters.What sacrifice was MythozDog refering to whe he mentioned Abrahams sacrifice?
Zlatan wroteThis was a test?.you need to sacrifice to prove your loyalty and sincerity in seving The God?..the sacrificing is the best evidence of the love and sincerity?and it requires a character to sacrifice
cheers.
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Peace be upon you,
SuJooD means to prostrate (hear and obey)
Adding "Mu" means the object takes on that characteristic
MAsjid is a place of hearing and obeying (prostration) the God's restrictions.The God says that He does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in thier minds(nafs).
Our direction is to the place of hearing and obeying(prostration) the restrictions. We are to purify our minds with discipline. That is how we change our condition.
Those who take partners to the One God cannot enter this mindset, the mindset we should "face" at all times.
(2144) We have seen your face turning around in the sky, so We will turn/enable/appoint you a direction you approve it, so turn your face towards the place of hearing and obeying the restrictions and wherever you were so turn your faces towards it, and that those who were given the book they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and truly The God is not with neglecting/disregarding about what they make/do.
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Peace
Zlatan,
MythozDog wrote
e]>Who was the God of Moses? This Jehovah?Did he really demand sacrifice of Abraham. The act of sacrifice seems
somewhat pagan and most likely mans idea ...not unlike the Aztecs
sacrifices on blood alters.What sacrifice was MythozDog refering to whe he mentioned Abrahams sacrifice?
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the sacrifiction of his son...
I think it was sacrifiction of his own son, the one loong wanted and longed for....and he was ready to sacrifice him...moreover the boy was himself ready for sacrificing in the God`s cause...!!
Compare this to some people who would steal and cheat in order to provide all the luxuries for their children ...and they justify it with allegedly just purposes... for example they say they must provide a good education for their childeren, social security etc.
What a wonderful example, set in The Great Reading, we have
cheers...
best regards and wishes, Zlatan
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Peace Zlatan,
I beg to disagree Zlatan. I think sacrificing is reverting back to pagan ritual when men could not understand their position in relation to the universe and feared it...appealing to God by giving up something in hopes that he would hear their fears. A real God would not demand sacrifice in that manner. He would have no need of it. That is only man giving in to his fear of living. Life is something God gave us all to enjoy... Not to run cowering into the dark places of the mind, submissive, rolling over like some dog that doesn't understand his surroundings or the gift that has been presented to him.God is not a God of fear! That is only for the clerics and religious fanatics to use with which to control others while pushing their personal beliefs and agendas.
God is a God of Love. He is not Insecure. He is Evolving Therefore he doesn't have a need to watch man waiting patiently with faith for his approval. I'm sure he wishes man would get on with the business of addressing the problems of the planet and spend less time on their knees asking for help. We should be using the brains that he gave us to do good for humanity and to care for the animals that have been put into our care. We need to put to rest all the religious dogma that has been perpetuated over the centuries (millennia ) by these men with agendas. This stuff is personally stagnating and largely responsible for mans lack of progress in important matters today. Worship God, personally, within your own minds and drop the collective subjugation.
God didn?t give us minds to disregard by longing for a time before we were. What a waste that is! He gave us these minds to explore and test. Forward, with adventure into the Universe that he has so generously provided for us. Onward and Upward! )
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MythozDog wrote
God is not a God of fear! That is only for the clerics and religious fanatics to use with which to control others while pushing their personal beliefs and agendas.
God is a God of Love.
It is such events as Tsunami that show us that our scripture offers us with a picture of the God that is more real and true than peoples` wishful thinking and phantasies....
The God surely is a god of love, but He is also god of fear and retribution....
Praise be to Him!!!
may He lead us from the darknesses into the light and save us from the eternal punishement!!!!!