Was Moses in Egypt?????
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Did Allah have to put in every slight detail of what was well known at the time? Pharaoh of Egypt has been a title for the king of Egypt since before Moses. There is plenty enough strong evidence for that! There is also evidence in the previous books Allah tells you He also authored before Quran. Quran is not a stand alone revelation and that is proven by the many references to what is in those other revelations before it.
We have two of choices
- Describe traditions using God's words
- Describe God's words using traditions
I generally choose first one.
The Fire; they are exposed to it morning and evening; and on the day when the Hour upriseth (it is said) Cause Pharaoh's folk to enter the most awful doom.
If "Pharaoh" is just a title, can you confirm that all generations of Pharaoh deserved most awful doom?
Peace.
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We have two of choices
- Describe traditions using God's words
- Describe God's words using traditions
I generally choose first one.
The Fire; they are exposed to it morning and evening; and on the day when the Hour upriseth (it is said) Cause Pharaoh's folk to enter the most awful doom.
If "Pharaoh" is just a title, can you confirm that all generations of Pharaoh deserved most awful doom?
Peace.
no of course not, can you confirm that all desert arabs are worst in hypocrisy?
It is speaking about a time in history that was past when Quran was revealed, it is talking about those that worshipped pharaoh as a God, all pharoahs, not just one. It is a title and that verse is talking about the one that was in the time of Moses which was a different pharaoh to the one in Chapter 12 (called the king of Egypt), which can be found in Genesis chapter 40. -
Did Allah have to put in every slight detail of what was well known at the time? Pharaoh of Egypt has been a title for the king of Egypt since before Moses. There is plenty enough strong evidence for that! There is also evidence in the previous books Allah tells you He also authored before Quran. Quran is not a stand alone revelation and that is proven by the many references to what is in those other revelations before it.
Salam,
I would be very interested by your thought and would like you to explain this fact
{We thus took vengeance upon them by drowning them in a fast current (of water), for their denial of Our signs, and their disregard of them * And We let the people who were persecuted inherit the east of the land and the west of it which We have blessed. And the good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel for their patience; and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived.}....
The above verses are telling us, in words that are as clear a the sun, that the Israelites INHERITED the land AFTER pharaoh's reign came to a watery end.
Answer me this Is there any proof od the Israelites ever having ruled Egypt???
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Salam,
I would be very interested by your thought and would like you to explain this fact
{We thus took vengeance upon them by drowning them in a fast current (of water), for their denial of Our signs, and their disregard of them * And We let the people who were persecuted inherit the east of the land and the west of it which We have blessed. And the good word of your Lord was completed towards the Children of Israel for their patience; and We destroyed what Pharaoh and his people were doing, and what they contrived.}....The above verses are telling us, in words that are as clear a the sun, that the Israelites INHERITED the land AFTER pharaoh's reign came to a watery end.
Answer me this Is there any proof od the Israelites ever having ruled Egypt???
The land that was blessed was Israel. This watery end was not the end of Pharaoh, only of that one, there were more after and Cleopatra was the last known Pharaoh. It was after Moses freeing his people that the revelation came to him of the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai and Israel and Egypt have fought over this land which is to the west of Israel and now part of Egypt. Moses was in Sinai for 40 years, this was Israeli land at that time.
Prior to this Joseph (father of Jacob (Jacob was later named Israel)) had been a high official in Egypt and is thought to be the Imhotep that saved Egypt from the famine years. There has always been history between Egypt and Israel and you have to bear in mind that borders now are not the same as borders then. Egypt was much larger than it is now.
Sorry if that doenst answer your question, got to go out so it was quick. peace
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no of course not, can you confirm that all desert arabs are worst in hypocrisy?
If God Says so, what can I say additionally? I think there is no one here to claiming that "badawii" is a proper name instead of just a title. Otherwise, deserving "most awful doom" is not comparable such a thing like being "worst in hypocrisy".
It is speaking about a time in history that was past when Quran was revealed, it is talking about those that worshipped pharaoh as a God, all pharoahs, not just one. It is a title and that verse is talking about the one that was in the time of Moses which was a different pharaoh to the one in Chapter 12 (called the king of Egypt), which can be found in Genesis chapter 40.
Deserving "most awful doom" implies on me that someone have to made such a thing like who named as "Fraun" in Qur'an. "Most awful doom" is a special situation, then this special situation must point someone who have to be a special person. Fraun was insist on destruction even warned by a messenger of God with biggest visible miracles. Thus, makes Fraun has a special situation for deserving "most awful doom" then other kings.
This result totally related with pure logic beyond of traditions. Logic is the most effective for understanding efforts of Qur'an. We are responsible from our logic beyond of traditions. Jewish/Christian traditions are most effective barriers standing front of realizing true aspect of Moses story.
Additionally, please read the topic from beginning, then its possible to you have to see why "Misr" translated mistakenly as "Egypt" in Qur'an.
Peace.
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If God Says so, what can I say additionally? I think there is no one here to claiming that "badawii" is a proper name instead of just a title.
there are hundreds of Egyptian here with the name Badawi
Otherwise, deserving "most awful doom" is not comparable such a thing like being "worst in hypocrisy".
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.Deserving "most awful doom" implies on me that someone have to made such a thing like who named as "Fraun" in Qur'an. "Most awful doom" is a special situation, then this special situation must point someone who have to be a special person. Fraun was insist on destruction even warned by a messenger of God with biggest visible miracles. Thus, makes Fraun has a special situation for deserving "most awful doom" then other kings.
There are many references to 'most awful doom' in Quran regarding many types of people.This result totally related with pure logic beyond of traditions. Logic is the most effective for understanding efforts of Qur'an. We are responsible from our logic beyond of traditions. Jewish/Christian traditions are most effective barriers standing front of realizing true aspect of Moses story.
I agree, use someAdditionally, please read the topic from beginning, then its possible to you have to see why "Misr" translated mistakenly as "Egypt" in Qur'an.
Peace.
Do some research. Misr is Egypt, it is the Arabic name for Egypt. England is the English name for England and Inglaterra is the Arabic name for England. Lebanon is the English for Lebanon, Libnan is the Arabic. America is English for America, Amrika is Arabic.
Egypt or Misr or Mizraim it is still th same land.
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there are hundreds of Egyptian here with the name Badawi
Please don't act as a child. You know what i mean exactly.
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.
I just trying tell you to we don't have strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a people. We can assume "badawi" as a people because of evidence of linguistics.
There are many references to 'most awful doom' in Quran regarding many types of people.
We are talking about generations of Pharaoh. If paharaoh is a people, then all of them have to be warned by God's messenger, witnessed to God's miracle then punished by God. Otherwise, deserving same awful doom as Moses's Pharaoh is NOT FAIR.
Do some research.
Ok..Let's get start here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599235.msg236636#msg236636
Peace.
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Peace,
It's highly possible that "Fraun" is a proper name of a king instead of a title. We have no any strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a title just by Qur'an.
Peace.
There is no mention in the Quran that Firaun is a proper name or a title and God did not mention the name of that particular Firaun or Pharaoh during Moses. But there are plenty of archaeological evidences that Firaun in Arabic is the Pharaoh in English of Egypt.
If you read the articles of Ron Wyatt on his website, the chariot wheels they found at the crossing of the Red Sea were confirmed from the 18th Dynasty and further to their research, they found that there is a land bridge under the Red Sea at that particular place of crossing.
http//wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm
Whats important here is that Moses was in Egypt as per topic.
Peace.
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We have two of choices
- Describe traditions using God's words
- Describe God's words using traditions
I generally choose first one.
The Fire; they are exposed to it morning and evening; and on the day when the Hour upriseth (it is said) Cause Pharaoh's folk to enter the most awful doom.
If "Pharaoh" is just a title, can you confirm that all generations of Pharaoh deserved most awful doom?
Peace.
The above verse should be cross-referenced with all the stories of Moses in the Quran. It is not logical referring to one verse only when asking a question.
2627 (Pharaoh) said "Truly your messenger who has been sent to you is a veritable madman!"
2628 (Moses) said "Lord of the East and the West, and all between! If ye only had sense!"
2629 (Pharaoh) said "If thou dost put forward any god other than me, I will certainly put thee in prison!"2838 Pharaoh said "O Chiefs! No god do I know for you but myself therefore, O Haman! light me a (kiln to bake bricks) out of clay, and build me a lofty palace, that I may mount up to the god of Moses but as far as I am concerned I think (Moses) is a liar!"
2839 And he was arrogant and insolent in the land, beyond reason, he and his hosts they thought that they would not have to return to Us!"
2840 So We seized him and his hosts, and We flung them into the sea now behold what was the End of those who did wrong!
2841 And We made them leaders inviting to the Fire; and on the Day of Judgment no help shall they find.
2842 In this world We made a Curse to follow them and on the Day of Judgment they will be among the loathed.The topic is about Moses and the particular Pharaoh during the exodus. It was the Pharaoh and his hosts during Moses who were drowned into the sea, condemned and cursed because the Pharaoh said he was god. Too bad for that particular Pharaoh because God decided to send Moses to him and show the Signs. Have you considered why, exodus? And why Egypt, and not other places, Abraham was send to the Egyptians, Joseph was send to the Egyptians and Moses. Maybe a new topic for Egypt should be started.
Peace.
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Peace,
If God Says so, what can I say additionally? I think there is no one here to claiming that "badawii" is a proper name instead of just a title. Otherwise, deserving "most awful doom" is not comparable such a thing like being "worst in hypocrisy".
Ayisha, I think he meant the Bedouins, the tribal desert dwellers.
The verse about the awful doom is a punishment already decreed and the worst in hypocrisy are attitudes and yet to be punished. But if a person is a hypocrite until his death, then he will deserve that same awful doom punishment. Once someone is decreed to be in the Fire, there is nothing special or difference about them. But if a hypocrite repented before his death then he will deserve the Garden. Let?s leave the punishment to God alone, as for the still living, the past mentioned in the Book are examples for us to choose and follow, so that we know what our future will be like.
Deserving "most awful doom" implies on me that someone have to made such a thing like who named as "Fraun" in Qur'an. "Most awful doom" is a special situation, then this special situation must point someone who have to be a special person. Fraun was insist on destruction even warned by a messenger of God with biggest visible miracles. Thus, makes Fraun has a special situation for deserving "most awful doom" then other kings.
Read the above verses 2629 and 2838, the Pharaoh and his people during the time of Moses said he was god.
4347 But when he(Moses) came to them with Our Signs, behold, they ridiculed them.
4348 We showed them Sign after Sign, each greater than its fellow, and We seized them with Punishment, in order that they might turn (to Us).
4349 And they said, "O thou sorcerer! Invoke thy Lord for us according to his covenant with thee; for we shall truly accept guidance."
4350 But when We removed the Penalty from them, behold, they broke their word.
4351 And Pharaoh proclaimed among his people, saying "O my people! Does not the dominion of Egypt belong to me, these streams flowing underneath me? What! See ye not then?
4352 "Am I not better than this (Moses), who is a contemptible wretch and can scarcely express himself clearly?
4353 "Then why are not gold bracelets bestowed on him, or come with him angels accompanying him in procession?"
4354 Thus did he make fools of his people, and they obeyed him truly were they a people rebellious.
4355 When at length they provoked Us, We exacted retribution from them, and We drowned them all.
4356 And We made them of the Past and an Example to later ages.Jewish/Christian traditions are most effective barriers standing front of realizing true aspect of Moses story.
No it is not just the Jewish/Christian traditions who distorted the story of Moses, but the most ?effective barriers?, are those done by the Saudi authorities with their wahhabism. Have you seen this news report in 2005?
http//www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-destruction-of-mecca-saudi-hardliners-are-wiping-out-their-own-heritage-501647.html
And here is another from the American Muslim website
http//www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/saudi_destruction_of_muslim_historical_sites1/
And if you Google Earth the place where Ron Wyatt discovered the Red Sea Crossing and Mt. Tur, you will find that most of the blackened mountain top has been scraped and the mountain east side are fenced and guarded by soldiers. They are all trying to destroy the Truth and the Signs from God and what did God say about this people, the rejectors of Truth and Faith. If they did not repent before their death, who do you think will be their leader to lead them to the Fire? The most awful doom punishment.
God had revealed all the evidences of Moses and the exodus to a Christian man (refer to the website), do you believe this verse?
582 Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians" because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
Peace.
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Peace,
There is no mention in the Quran that Firaun is a proper name or a title and God did not mention the name of that particular Firaun or Pharaoh during Moses.
If God should mention a particular name for Pharaoh, then how would you sure that is particular name? God mentioned Haman, Karun with their particular names, but for Firaun not?
There are strong mentions in the Quran that we can accept Firaun as a proper name,
- Used in a unique singular form without any exception along Quran
- Used for pointing a particular person along Qur'an
- Never used in plural form
- Mentioning other lower people ( Haman, Karun ..) using particular names but not for himself, produces an illogic situation
But there are plenty of archaeological evidences that Firaun in Arabic is the Pharaoh in English of Egypt.
Besides that not make any sense at all, If you can point me an archaeological and lungiustic evidence from Arabia that confirms that word of Firaun/Firuan used for Egypt kings before Qur'an, then I respect it. This evidence should be independent from previous religious texts.
If you read the articles of Ron Wyatt on his website, the chariot wheels they found at the crossing of the Red Sea were confirmed from the 18th Dynasty and further to their research, they found that there is a land bridge under the Red Sea at that particular place of crossing.
http//wyattmuseum.com/red-sea-crossing-05.htm
Whats important here is that Moses was in Egypt as per topic.
Chariot wheels? I just wonder that if Wyatt would took Qur'an as only source, then would he sure about Red Sea that much prior to "chariot wheels" ?
Peace.
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Peace,
I just trying tell you to we don't have strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a people. We can assume "badawi" as a people because of evidence of linguistics.
From your earlier post you said Firaun is not a title but a proper name for a person. Now from above Firaun as a people. You still could not accept that Firaun in Arabic OR Pharaoh in English was a title for a single king, one person? And yet now you wanted to assume Firaun as a people?
We are talking about generations of Pharaoh. If paharaoh is a people, then all of them have to be warned by God's messenger, witnessed to God's miracle then punished by God. Otherwise, deserving same awful doom as Moses's Pharaoh is NOT FAIR.
If you read the above verse 2840-42, you will understand that it was only the Pharaoh and his hosts during Moses who were drowned and condemned and cursed. Read and understand more of the Truth from God through His Book. Do extra research from archaeology reports and articles if the histories mention in the Book of Truth interest you. Whoever deserve the Fire or the Garden are already explain in detail and decreed in the Book.
God is Just, Merciful and Compassionate.
Peace.
tauhid101. -
Please don't act as a child. You know what i mean exactly.
Please do not assume the position of guest and raj in their absence. Badawi is a name for many people here just as Muhammed is or Hassan is. If you mean Bedouins as Tauhid says then dont misspell and accuse me of being a child for misunderstanding.I just trying tell you to we don't have strong evidence for assuming "Fraun" as a people. We can assume "badawi" as a people because of evidence of linguistics.
No one said Pharaoh were 'a people'. Egyptians are a people, Pharaoh was a KING. King is a title, Pharaoh is a title for ONE person at a time. Chapter 12 Pharaoh is refered to as king but it is Pharaoh of that time.We are talking about generations of Pharaoh. If paharaoh is a people, then all of them have to be warned by God's messenger, witnessed to God's miracle then punished by God. Otherwise, deserving same awful doom as Moses's Pharaoh is NOT FAIR.
No, YOU are talking about generations of people and claiming its not fair. I am talking about Pharaoh at that time, a person, a King of Egypt at that time. This happened to ONE KING at that time. NOW the people 'of the land of Pharaoh' are 90% Muslims. There is no Pharaoh now, there is a president.Bedouins are still Bedouins, they are a tribe of people. Badawi is a name of a person, not a tribe of people. Pharaoh was never a name, always was a title meaning King of Egypt.
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If God should mention a particular name for Pharaoh, then how would you sure that is particular name? God mentioned Haman, Karun with their particular names, but for Firaun not?
There are strong mentions in the Quran that we can accept Firaun as a proper name,
- Used in a unique singular form without any exception along Quran
- Used for pointing a particular person along Qur'an
- Never used in plural form
- Mentioning other lower people ( Haman, Karun ..) using particular names but not for himself, produces an illogic situation
*it is used in singular because there was only 1 king at that time in Egypt.
*the particular person was the king at that time
*again, 1 at a time. There is only one ruler, king at a time in any kingdom
*why illogical? Pharaoh had slaves, workers, high officials, the Ancient Egyptian Kingdom of this era was like no other on earth then or now.Besides that not make any sense at all, If you can point me an archaeological and lungiustic evidence from Arabia that confirms that word of Firaun/Firuan used for Egypt kings before Qur'an, then I respect it. This evidence should be independent from previous religious texts.
Why would there be linguistic evidence from Arabia for this? you are asking for proof that the Arabs knew all this before Quran was revealed, prove to me they knew anything about the rest of Quran before it was revealed and you will prove its fake!Like it or not this is about Egypt, Egypt played a huge part in all Gods books. Pharaoh is the king of Egypt and not someone from Arabia.
Chariot wheels? I just wonder that if Wyatt would took Qur'an as only source, then would he sure about Red Sea that much prior to "chariot wheels" ?
Peace.
That makes no sense
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Please do not assume the position of guest and raj in their absence. Badawi is a name for many people here just as Muhammed is or Hassan is. If you mean Bedouins as Tauhid says then dont misspell and accuse me of being a child for misunderstanding.
No one said Pharaoh were 'a people'. Egyptians are a people, Pharaoh was a KING. King is a title, Pharaoh is a title for ONE person at a time. Chapter 12 Pharaoh is refered to as king but it is Pharaoh of that time.
No, YOU are talking about generations of people and claiming its not fair. I am talking about Pharaoh at that time, a person, a King of Egypt at that time. This happened to ONE KING at that time. NOW the people 'of the land of Pharaoh' are 90% Muslims. There is no Pharaoh now, there is a president.Bedouins are still Bedouins, they are a tribe of people. Badawi is a name of a person, not a tribe of people. Pharaoh was never a name, always was a title meaning King of Egypt.
Peace Aysha, all,
can you then explain why fir3awn in the Quran is always written without the particule AL?
I mean if it was just a title any occurence of would mean "a king", indefinate case.
While putting "AL" would definetly proove it is a title.Peace
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Peace,
From your earlier post you said Firaun is not a title but a proper name for a person. Now from above Firaun as a people. You still could not accept that Firaun in Arabic OR Pharaoh in English was a title for a single king, one person? And yet now you wanted to assume Firaun as a people?
I mentioned all of paharaohs as "people" while answering Ayaisha below. I thought Ayisha mentioned about all pharaohs as "people" then it was acceptable for me while assuming Fraun as title for all kings of Egypt. All pharaohs compose a group of "people" is it not?
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.
If you read the above verse 2840-42, you will understand that it was only the Pharaoh and his hosts during Moses who were drowned and condemned and cursed. Read and understand more of the Truth from God through His Book. Do extra research from archaeology reports and articles if the histories mention in the Book of Truth interest you. Whoever deserve the Fire or the Garden are already explain in detail and decreed in the Book.
God is Just, Merciful and Compassionate.
Thank you for good advise but you have to sure I know what I have readen from the Book. People sometimes failed to see basic Truth which standing front of us very clear.
Peace.
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Peace Aysha, all,
can you then explain why fir3awn in the Quran is always written without the particule AL?
I mean if it was just a title any occurence of would mean "a king", indefinate case.
While putting "AL" would definetly proove it is a title.Peace
This has been brought up before somewhere.
Pharaoh was and is never called The Pharaoh, or A Pharaoh, always just Pharaoh. Pharaoh was not just King, he was one of the GODS, he was worshipped as a god, sacrifices made to him along with other gods etc. Pharaoh means Great House which refered to the King's palace but during the new Kingdom (16th to 11th Century BC) this became the title used to refer to the king himself. -
I mentioned all of paharaohs as "people" while answering Ayaisha below. I thought Ayisha mentioned about all pharaohs as "people" then it was acceptable for me while assuming Fraun as title for all kings of Egypt. All pharaohs compose a group of "people" is it not?
Quote from Ayisha
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.the group of people was in answer to your post
"Otherwise, deserving "most awful doom" is not comparable such a thing like being "worst in hypocrisy"." and"Deserving "most awful doom" implies on me that someone have to made such a thing like who named as "Fraun" in Qur'an. "Most awful doom" is a special situation, then this special situation must point someone who have to be a special person. Fraun was insist on destruction even warned by a messenger of God with biggest visible miracles. Thus, makes Fraun has a special situation for deserving "most awful doom" then other kings."
I replied that there are many groups of people refered to in Quran who will meet an awful doom.
The awful doom was in reference to 'the people of Pharaoh' and not all the Pharaohs.
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Please do not assume the position of guest and raj in their absence. Badawi is a name for many people here just as Muhammed is or Hassan is. If you mean Bedouins as Tauhid says then dont misspell and accuse me of being a child for misunderstanding.
raj in absence? I'm sorry but this should not be an answer for after claiming "childish act". Here is an internet forum, then I don't have to check your online status while answering you.
You have mentioned desert arabs, then i mentioned "badawi" which I thought it was arabic form of "desert arabs" instead of "badoui". You have to know what i meant.
I thought you are mentioning all pharaohs as "people" in quote below, then it was not unacceptable thing for me due to composing of paharaohs of a group of "people".
both said by allah regarding a group of people at a certain time.
I'm not fluent in English..this situation leaves a little bit misunderstood on me.
Peace.
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This has been brought up before somewhere.
Pharaoh was and is never called The Pharaoh, or A Pharaoh, always just Pharaoh. Pharaoh was not just King, he was one of the GODS, he was worshipped as a god, sacrifices made to him along with other gods etc. Pharaoh means Great House which refered to the King's palace but during the new Kingdom (16th to 11th Century BC) this became the title used to refer to the king himself.If you setup the rules then fine. If Pharaoh is a title like "King" then it should have the same grammatical behaviour, e.g. we can find in the Quran malikun= a king and al maliku= the king, never the case with Pharaoh.
Peace