'Having no doubt whatsoever...'
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4915 "Mu'mens (believers) are those who believe in GOD and His messenger, then attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever, and strive with their money and their lives in the cause of GOD. These are the truthful ones."
I'm not sure what the purpose of this thread is except to say that I have had a very bizarre year of sorts, the feeling of which the bolded part of this verse captures for me.
For the longest time, I have had a belief in God. It was mostly arrived at logically, through intellectual means, peppered here and there with glimmers of actual experience of the Divine. The glimmers weren't sufficiently overwhelming enough for me to completely remove all doubt. My ego always chattered to me, whispered at me, suggesting that this or that experience could just be coincidence, delusion, or desire.
I had a highly personal experience recently which I can't really talk about, but which was undoubtedly a 'mystical' experience as the wisdom traditions call it. I can now fully relate to 4915. I have zero doubt. I am 10,000% positive God exists. In fact, even speaking of it in those terms does it no justice. Talking about percentages belittles it. It implies being convinced of something, and being convinced still implies an intellect at work, and it's much more than that. My intellect has been satisfied for a while; I'm talking more about an experience. A transition from belief/faith into knowledge/experience. No more leap of faith, but rather absolute certitude.
1736 "And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and heart, all these you are responsible for."
My hearing and eyesight (i.e. sensory-intellectual apparatuses) were always convinced but now my heart knows as well.
Has anyone else felt this? If so, was it one significant experience? Or a gradual process? Care to share what spurred it on?
What actually prompted me to make this thread was Carl Jung. My favorite psychologist of all time, a great scholar who fused spirituality with the science of the mind. When he was 82 years old, he gave this interview to BBC. In this 20 second clip, he's asked about his belief in God. And what he says, and the peaceful knowing smile he says it with, hits the nail on the head for me.
I would never presume enough to compare myself to Jung or to call myself a mu'min, but all I know is I now have felt exactly what Jung felt http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ25Ai__FYU&feature=related
And it's such a beautiful feeling. Excuse the sentimentality. D
Peace.
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Wonderful topic! Visionary mushrooms did it for me.
But that was like the certainty of "Something" huge and powerful surrounding me all the time, but normally unseen. And that meant no more reductionist materialist philosophy for me. There is more to life than I have the ability to think or imagine. A seed of true humility was sown. A brief moment of true God-consciousness blossomed.
And then comes "What was That?"
It wasn't, "I am Allah; read the Qur'an." That came later, after some trial and error. At first, for me anyway, it felt like a goddess. My concept of God was still partly joined to the natural universe, and it probably still would be if not for Revelation.
Serve your Lord until conviction comes to you!
I believe this ayah is key. It means the day-to-day trusting interactions with "That Something" through the Book and the Prayer is what causes faith to grow. As great and transforming as they are, the problem with "spiritual experiences" is that they fade from memory.
Carl Jung definitely had a concept of God, though I'm not sure if he had the right concept. He seemed to confuse the subconscious with the archetypal. He wasn't grounded in tawhid.
So I'd have to say in the end it's a more gradual process, it's all the little experiences adding up that move us into the lasting knowledge of certainty.
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Is that the experience when you start seen everything around you beautifull? even dirt whe you see it too beautifull, it(s color , it's smell ? is it when u feel in total peace with every person around you ? is it when you cook food and you enjoy it's taste to the maximum as a delight no matter what food? is it when you appreciate and enjoy looking at every color and ponder in the same time why are these colors the way they are? is it when you start feeling so much positive energy around you that u don't even get attracted in somethinf evil ? is it when all people who know you tells you you changed,you look different than before? is it when u feel you want everybody around you to feel good no matter who they are? is it when all people even those with whom u had problems and u don't like u start talking to them with love from your heart ? is it when you feel like you forgive everyone in your life no matter what they did to u ? ALLAH blessed u and made u feel the spirituel world for a bit, imagine, maybe you will live like that in the hearafter
salam -
Salaam All,
I can now fully relate to 4915. I have zero doubt.
I hope to reach that level of conviction one day too
"To these we grant twice the reward, because they steadfastly persevere. They counter evil works with good works, and from our provisions to them, they give." (2854)For the mean time I will try and follow 1599. And hopefully afterwords, I will attain the status of "no doubt", god willing.
Also, I have a question for you
I think that a mu'min not only has zero doubt in God, he also has unwavering belief in the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, etc.. (see 2177) Have you finally arrived at the point in which you truly have faith in all of that which is unseen (or only God)?Salaam
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Peace Cavemandoctor,
I doubt you will forget the experience. However it doesn't mean this life won't test you. Your post made me want to look back at my own experience so I did a search of free-minds. I posted about my experience 2 years ago (but it happened 4 years ago).http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16417.msg163157#msg163157
Earlier this year (2010) I told the story again.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599845.msg237770#msg237770
Right now I am reading the two accounts and they sound like totally different experiences. I think the second time I was trying to be "objective" which really doesn't convey the experience (since it was a very emotional/profound thing for me).
In fact, even speaking of it in those terms does it no justice. Talking about percentages belittles it. It implies being convinced of something, and being convinced still implies an intellect at work, and it's much more than that. My intellect has been satisfied for a while; I'm talking more about an experience. A transition from belief/faith into knowledge/experience.
Bottom line is I was witness to something incredible and it cannot be conveyed. All praise is to God that he has turned my life around.
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peace Sis,
AFAIK, thumma has the meanings of "then" or "afterwards". How do you think it will change the meaning of the verse, Bro?
I dont think it changes the meaning of the verse per se, but it is interesting for me, as I see the path to total conviction/trust as a progression, NOT like Traditional Muslim teaching. From my studies of AQ, it is most definitely a progression. Of course, that is not to say it cannot happen very quickly or perhaps instantly in individual cases.
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Peace CavemanDoctor,
Thanks for sharing your insightful views and experiences.
I came to the realization that anyone can 'believe' in a diety. How is my 'belief' any better than somebody's belief in, let's say, paganism?
Seeing is believing (2260), and once you see, you know. I don't 'believe' in God, I have seen him. I know him.EDIT If someone asks what God is, you would say...?
I just realised 4915 has "thumma", commonly translated as "then/thereafter". Interesting.
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Ah, nice catch.
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Great responses guys. AlFajr, I remember reading your story. Very interesting, and thanks for sharing.
Is that the experience when you start seen everything around you beautifull? even dirt whe you see it too beautifull, it(s color , it's smell ? is it when u feel in total peace with every person around you ? is it when you cook food and you enjoy it's taste to the maximum as a delight no matter what food? is it when you appreciate and enjoy looking at every color and ponder in the same time why are these colors the way they are? is it when you start feeling so much positive energy around you that u don't even get attracted in somethinf evil ? is it when all people who know you tells you you changed,you look different than before? is it when u feel you want everybody around you to feel good no matter who they are? is it when all people even those with whom u had problems and u don't like u start talking to them with love from your heart ? is it when you feel like you forgive everyone in your life no matter what they did to u ? ALLAH blessed u and made u feel the spirituel world for a bit, imagine, maybe you will live like that in the hearafter
salam^ This post is actually pretty spot on.
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The feeling of certainty, free of doubt.. a beautiful feeling that so many yearn for.
I dont think it changes the meaning of the verse per se, but it is interesting for me, as I see the path to total conviction/trust as a progression, NOT like Traditional Muslim teaching. From my studies of AQ, it is most definitely a progression. Of course, that is not to say it cannot happen very quickly or perhaps instantly in individual cases.
Thuma as total conviction/trust ? haven't heard that one before.
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4915 "Mu'mens (believers) are those who believe in GOD and His messenger, then attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever, and strive with their money and their lives in the cause of GOD. These are the truthful ones."
peace Sis,
I dont think it changes the meaning of the verse per se, but it is interesting for me, as I see the path to total conviction/trust as a progression, NOT like Traditional Muslim teaching. From my studies of AQ, it is most definitely a progression. Of course, that is not to say it cannot happen very quickly or perhaps instantly in individual cases.
The translation rendered above is patently incorrect, and seems to be the result of ignoring particle "Lam" before the imperfect verb.
is Negative Particle . It will put the following verb in Jussive Mood and will negate it and will remove all notions of present and future tense from the verb, thus rendering it back into past. It can never be used with the Perfect verb. Since the verb following it is always in Jussive Mood, it is also called "Jussive Particle"
Indeed the Believers are only those who accepted/believed in Allah and the Messenger of Him
and afterwards/thereafter in the time span they never admixed/entered into perplexity,
and they exerted utmost with their wealth and their persons/physically in the Cause/Path of Allah;
they are the people who are truly the Truthful. -
peace Mazhar,
Can you provide a reference for the following
...and will remove all notions of present and future tense from the verb, thus rendering it back into past.
Also, you state it cannot refer to future, yet in your translation you seem to have a sequence with "thumma". So, it seems we can say it happened, i.e. it is in the past, and the sequence was as the ayat/sign says. This would not change my understanding.
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peace Mazhar,
Can you provide a reference for the following
Also, you state it cannot refer to future, yet in your translation you seem to have a sequence with "thumma". So, it seems we can say it happened, i.e. it is in the past, and the sequence was as the ayat/sign says. This would not change my understanding.
Any dictionary or grammer book. For convenience a link is here
http//arabic.tripod.com/Negation4.htm
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Also, you state it cannot refer to future, yet in your translation you seem to have a sequence with "thumma". So, it seems we can say it happened, i.e. it is in the past, and the sequence was as the ayat/sign says. This would not change my understanding.
"thumma" acts as conjunction between two things when both are different in nature from each other and there is a time gap between the two. One believes in an idea at a given point in time, and his truthfulness in claim of beliving can only be reflected by his acts in the time span thereafter. After proclamation of belief they proved their word by their acts mentioned, so they are truthful.
Perception and meanings; and occasion of use.
