No ritual salat?
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Some people in here say that there is no ritual salat. Can those people give their proofs? And the people who dont agree with this view, can you bring your refutation.
Peace
Perhaps you could provide us with proof that the ritual prayer observed by the sunni and shia Muslims is mentioned in it's entirety in the Quran.
Where does it say about the intention, then sura 1, then another one, lower back flexion, prostration etc.
Where does it talk about the units of prayer in each prayer? Etc. If the Quran contains every example as it states it does and if salat as decreed by God is as the sunni and shia Muslims observe, then it must be in the Quran in it's entirety.
Roshan
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THERE IS NO PROOF SALAT IS NOT A RITUAL PRAYER
So why so many PM sympathic people believe that opposite. Ansar...it is because all they have is arabic root words and their imagination.
Peace
Where are the details of the ritual movements in the ritual prayer in the Quran? Precisely what movements are we suppossed to do and what are we required to say?
Roshan
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Where does it talk about the units of prayer in each prayer? Etc. If the Quran contains every example as it states it does and if salat as decreed by God is as the sunni and shia Muslims observe, then it must be in the Quran in it's entirety.
Roshan
Dont ask me...ask the submitters movement or quranists who hold that there is a ritual prayer.
We muslims follow Allah and his messenger and pray like the prophet did.
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THERE IS NO PROOF SALAT IS NOT A RITUAL PRAYER
So why so many PM sympathic people believe that opposite. Ansar...it is because all they have is arabic root words and their imagination.
Peace
Where are the details of the ritual movements in the ritual prayer in the Quran? Precisely what movements are we suppossed to do and what are we required to say?
Roshan
Ansar...this is what i mean.
The only argument people who deny ritual prayer use is "where is it in the Koran". then they say "will the Koran say it is fully-detialed, complete etc etc."
Roshan
it is the same cycle over and over. But the funny thing is that i can use that same agrument. That is why many non muslins use similar arguments against those who testify to the "qurann alone" idealogy because it is fault.
Where are the details of the ritual movements in the ritual prayer in the Quran? Precisely what movements are we suppossed to do and what are we required to say?
Look...this question is always ask yet many continue to deny. In many verses GOD link bow and protration to submission and worship
O you who believe, you shall bow, prostrate, worship your Lord, and work righteousness, that you may succeed.
but then you will say, "well bow is symbolic". D'uh, do you think we can actuall bow in front of GOD. The movement done in salat are all symbolic gesture of submission.
Roshan what you and others fail to realize is that Submission, the religion existed since Adam and practices of it started with Abrham. That is why we see clear evidence of salat ritual prayer in religions BEFORE THE KORAN!
Like i state early, people who deny the ritual prayer must first deny (1) ALL PREVIOUS SCRIPUTE because all there "neo" defintion contradiction all, (2) Histroical evidence (3) mathematical proof etc etc etc.
You Must deny all those things so you can "claim" salat is not a ritual prayer. That is why you abuse verses in the Koran and use them out of context. That is why the same argument of "Koran Alone" is use. Yet that very agrument is baseless because it is use out of context.
You know what Roshan...show me one verse in the Koran that testify that salat is not a ritual prayer?
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YankeeDoodle
Uniformity= All believers of God should perform ritual prayer before and after Abraham.
Consistency= If the instruction on ritual prayer is to be decreed then it should start from Adam.I asked you a question
Does it mean Abrahams predecessors are not required to perform Salat?
and your answer was a question.
can you prove they were required?
my bad. let me answer your question.
it seems that believers requirements very over time.
No, Abrham predecessors were not required to perform salat just like other religious laws and practices were not required for his predecessors.This does not effect the elements of uniformity and conisistency. because there are many laws and pratices required from some communities of believers and not for other community of believer.
Plus, GOD "prefected" our religion. meaining concepts and practices were evolving and changing throughout the revealtion process until the koran was final revealed.
do you understand Yankee?
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Salaams satan hates,
Read this ayatsee if your quot the deen has been evolving is justified.Thanks.And do they do the ritual or anything like it in judaesm ,or cristianity???are their informations in their books regarding the ritual?
4213
He has ordained for you the same religion which he ordained for Noah and that which we inspired to you and that which we ordained for Abraham and Moses and Jesus that you establish religion and not be devided in it .........
Allah Hafiz.
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Salaams satan hates,
Read this ayatsee if your quot the deen has been evolving is justified.Thanks.And do they do the ritual or anything like it in judaesm ,or cristianity???are their informations in their books regarding the ritual?
quote]pratices of submission (salat, fasting, etc) started with Abrham. God perfected the religion meaning not all believers. There are article written about this and books. I once read a article describe how the term salat can be link to jews prayer.
The actual movements done in salat were done before the koran by jews. http//www.submission.org/jews.html
Plus there is tons of evidene in GOD previous scripture of a ritual prayer done several times a day by GOD messengers. DO must who deny ritual prayer deny all GOD scriptures.
He has ordained for you the same religion which he ordained for Noah and that which we inspired to you and that which we ordained for Abraham and Moses and Jesus that you establish religion and not be devided in it .........
The religion mention here is submission. Relgion is diffrent from religious practices. Fasting started with Abrham. So techinically, messengers and believers bfore Abeham DIDNOT fast. Do that mean they followed a different religion. NO. GOD prefected our religion, HE didnt start a new one.
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Sorry to say , but our understandings are wildly different.
To you yours and to me mine.
Thanks.And salaams.
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Read this ayatsee if your quot the deen has been evolving is justified.Thanks.
And do they do the ritual or anything like it in judaesm ,or cristianity???are their informations in their books regarding the ritual?
pratices of submission (salat, fasting, etc) started with Abrham. God perfected the religion meaning not all believers did the same things we do now in submission. There are article written about this and books. I once read a article describe how the term salat can be link to jews prayer.
The actual movements done in salat were done before the koran by jews. http//www.submission.org/jews.html
Plus there is tons of evidene in GOD previous scripture of a ritual prayer done several times a day by GOD messengers. DO must who deny ritual prayer deny all GOD scriptures.
He has ordained for you the same religion which he ordained for Noah and that which we inspired to you and that which we ordained for Abraham and Moses and Jesus that you establish religion and not be devided in it .........
The religion mention here is submission. Relgion is diffrent from religious practices. Fasting started with Abrham. So techinically, messengers and believers bfore Abeham DIDNOT fast. Do that mean they followed a different religion. NO. GOD prefected our religion, HE didnt start a new one.
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Sorry again,
the world has gotten the quranic islam through other means then the quran - i believe,that is why they are forging ahead even to outerspace and why they allways seem to have the upper hand.The westerners (majority not all),and the easterners(the japs plus some other countries are following in persuit) , the israelies,the americans.
I mean most of the people living in those countries.
The traditionalist who follow immams and tha falsified , quran will allways dwell third class - believe it!
Bye.and thanks for that.
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peace, SHM
ok so let me get this straight, there is little or no proof from the Quran that solaa is a ritual prayer, solaa doesnt even mean ritual prayer but link, connection, etc., there are some ahadith and forged poetry talking about "salat" being ritual prayer and Muhammad performing it but there are also some ahadith and forged poetry talking about jihad (to strive) being holy war and Muhammad doing that as well, there are some implications of ritual prayer in the Bible, so solaa=ritual prayer? do you think jihad=holy war or strive/struggle, its true definition? do you think salat means contact prayer or connection, link, bond, tie, etc. its true definition(s)?
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peace, SHM
ok so let me get this straight, there is little or no proof from the Quran that solaa is a ritual prayer, solaa doesnt even mean ritual prayer but link, connection, etc., there are some ahadith and forged poetry talking about "salat" being ritual prayer and Muhammad performing it but there are also some ahadith and forged poetry talking about jihad (to strive) being holy war and Muhammad doing that as well, there are some implications of ritual prayer in the Bible, so solaa=ritual prayer? do you think jihad=holy war or strive/struggle, its true definition? do you think salat means contact prayer or connection, link, bond, tie, etc. its true definition(s)?
First i just want to highlite a statement you made and correct you
there is little or no proof from the Quran that solaa is a ritual prayer, solaa doesnt even mean ritual prayer but link, connection, etc.,
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN THE KORAN THAT SALAT IS NOT A RITUAL PRAYER. The root meaning of the word salat is link. The word salat literally mean link prayer.
Please let go of this argument "salat doesnt even mean prayer" because it is baseless. Du'a mean suplication salat mean Contact Prayer. SAlat and Du'a are to different things, however that does mean salat doesnt mean contact prayer. People fail to see the wisdom in the koran when GOD uses different words (salat and dua) to address issue. Why? because they are different. Salat is a contact prayer done several times a day(2277). Du'a is simply ask GOD for somethings (1711).
What many are failing to understand is the Salat as a ritual prayer was done before, during, and after the koran by believer and non-believers(835). Why do you think the KOran never define salat. IT WAS WIDELY UNDSTOOD as ritual prayer.
Now you add it up
(1) Proof in the Koran (2277)
(2) Historical facts
(3) Consistency in Previous Scriptures
(4) Arabic meaningBut what do those against ritual prayer have
(1) Contradtion in ALL GOD scriptures of the definitions
(2) in consistency within their own organization on the meaning of salat
(3) No historical evidence, even in the slightest
(4) No Koranic proof that salat is not a ritual prayer, just there imagination
(5) Inconsistency in previous scriptures (297)do you think jihad=holy war or strive/struggle, its true definition? .
There is no mention of "holy war" in the Koran, But GOD commands us to perform salat daily. Jihad mean struggle and can change context base on content.
do you think salat means contact prayer or connection, link, bond, tie, etc. its true definition(s
let me ask you a question, how do you think words are created and define? DO you think all arabic words can always be trace back to their roots in Arabic?
If you think so you are wrong, because even within the arabic language, just because a word root means something, it doesnt mean the word as a whole carry that same meaning, for example, Ramadan.
Salat means contact prayer. Why? it is base on
(1) historical proof
(2) Koran Context
(3) Arabic language
(4) Previous scripturesMy definition of salat is base on 4 foudation listed above, yet your and other baliant denial of salat definition is simply base on their imagination and interpretation. That is why there is great inconsisitency in the definition of salat among those who deny salat as a ritual prayer. They have no proof, just the imagination (which is quite creative.)
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Salaams SHM,
what is the salatR for , for yourself or for allah or for who?
And how can it or does it save us from the fire of hell.Thanks and peace to you.
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Salaams SHM,
what is the salatR for , for yourself or for allah or for who?
And how can it or does it save us from the fire of hell.Thanks and peace to you.
Nothing is for Allah. HE needs nothing, na da.
Salat is for us. For our benefit.
And how can it or does it save us from the fire of hell
you increase you awarness of GOD and you maintain your link with your creator. That how it saves you from hell.
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So you mean people like myself who arn't into salatR arn't as aware of him as someone doing the salatR.Is this what you are saying?
If so can anybody prove this or is there a way of finding out like how aware you or me are or who is more aware?
Like may be a test of a sought or by seeing the amall or doings of these individuals???
Salaams.Bye.
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So you mean people like myself who arn't into salatR arn't as aware of him as someone doing the salatR.Is this what you are saying?
If so can anybody prove this or is there a way of finding out like how aware you or me are or who is more aware?
Like may be a test of a sought or by seeing the amall or doings of these individuals???
Salaams.Bye.
but would you say the same think. Whatever you considered salat to be, I am not doing it by your defintion. If you consisderd it a assemebly, learning process, whatevr, by your definition, i am not doing it so i dont gt the benefits from it.
So you mean people like myself who arn't into salatR arn't as aware of him as someone doing the salatR.Is this what you are saying?
You ask how salat ave us from evil. i answer. then you assume i was talking about you. I really dont care, i was just answering the question.
by the way, what do you considered salat is and how does your "definition" save from evil? you still havent present any proof or argument on you case. i am taking that as a hint.
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peace,
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE IN THE KORAN THAT SALAT IS NOT A RITUAL PRAYER.
unfortunately for you its not my job to prove a negative, but actually there is plenty of evidence
The root meaning of the word salat is link. The word salat literally mean link prayer.
Please let go of this argument "salat doesnt even mean prayer" because it is baseless. Du'a mean suplication salat mean Contact Prayer. SAlat and Du'a are to different things, however that does mean salat doesnt mean contact prayer. People fail to see the wisdom in the koran when GOD uses different words (salat and dua) to address issue. Why? because they are different. Salat is a contact prayer done several times a day(2277). Du'a is simply ask GOD for somethings (1711).
the word salat does not even occur in the Quran, the word is solaa which means link, connection, bond, tie, etc., dua does not mean supplication, it means prayer (non-ritual) which Sunnis change to supplication so not to expose their hypocrisy in calling solaa (or as they call it salat) prayer
What many are failing to understand is the Salat as a ritual prayer was done before, during, and after the koran by believer and non-believers(835). Why do you think the KOran never define salat. IT WAS WIDELY UNDSTOOD as ritual prayer.
I agree with you that the definition of solaa was widely understood but if it was a ritual prayer we would have at least seen a few ask how to uphold it or how many rakas or something like that, just because its definition was the widely understood does not mean its method was, and its not like the Quranic method would be the same as the method of the disbelievers either in performing it so we should at least see a question or two by converts or disbelievers on how to perform it the Quranic way but we don't
(1) Proof in the Koran (2277)
that verse might be interpreted as it being a ritual but no proof in it being a ritual prayer
(2) Historical facts
hadith=historical facts? its a historical fact Muhammad declared holy war on the infidels to then I guess ?
(3) Consistency in Previous Scriptures
we see a few instances in the Bible where the former prophets prostrated on the ground and that means defining solaa as ritual prayer is consistent with the previous scriptures?
(4) Arabic meaning
nope, your trying to define the word salat which is a nonQuranic word, the word is "solaa" which is just plain link, connection, tie, bond, etc.
But what do those against ritual prayer have
(1) Contradtion in ALL GOD scriptures of the definitionsthe definitions? where do we see in the previous scriptures being told to uphold a ritual prayer, I see many times where we are told to uphold the covenant wink
(2) in consistency within their own organization on the meaning of salat
differences in interpretations, everybody has them, that doesn't change the actual meaning of solaa from link to ritual prayer
(3) No historical evidence, even in the slightest
its not physical so I shouldn't expect there to be
(4) No Koranic proof that salat is not a ritual prayer, just there imagination
I don't feel like wasting my time in proving a negative, I can though
(5) Inconsistency in previous scriptures (297)
nope, my definition of salat is baptism LMAO I have Quranic proof too 443 and 56, please stop ignoring the previous scriptures and follow this definition lol I can bring you historical proof too
There is no mention of "holy war" in the Koran, But GOD commands us to perform salat daily. Jihad mean struggle and can change context base on content.
lol so you translate jihad based on context but not salat? but I can prove to you jihad is holy way based off of "true" historical "facts", there is no mention of "ritual prayer" in the Quran either btw
let me ask you a question, how do you think words are created and define? DO you think all arabic words can always be trace back to their roots in Arabic?
nope, I don't define salat based on its root words either
If you think so you are wrong, because even within the arabic language, just because a word root means something, it doesnt mean the word as a whole carry that same meaning, for example, Ramadan.
i know
Salat means contact prayer. Why? it is base on
(1) historical proof
(2) Koran Context
(3) Arabic language
(4) Previous scriptureswrong, its a illogical to use the same historical source to help define one word and disregard it to define another because of the Quranic context but then condemn others for disregarding the ritual prayer definition because of the context, the Quranic context can give interpretation to a ritual but never a ritual prayer, Arabic language salat doesnt even occur in the Quran, solaa means link, dua means prayer, you have no lingual support, previous scriptures never order us to uphold a ritual prayer, so none of this works
My definition of salat is base on 4 foudation listed above, yet your and other baliant denial of salat definition is simply base on their imagination and interpretation. That is why there is great inconsisitency in the definition of salat among those who deny salat as a ritual prayer. They have no proof, just the imagination (which is quite creative.)
you don't know my definition, your just assuming, I think solaa means link/connection/bond/tie/etc. which is what it means linguistically
peace
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Idris
you raise very interest points. but i smell in consistency.
the word salat does not even occur in the Quran, the word is solaa which means link, connection, bond, tie, etc., dua does not mean supplication, it means prayer (non-ritual) which Sunnis change to supplication so not to expose their hypocrisy in calling solaa (or as they call it salat) prayer
you state the "solaa" mean link (which i do agree with). but then you said your defintion of "solaa" is not base on arabic root words
nope, my definition of salat is baptism LMAO I have Quranic proof too 443 and 56, please stop ignoring the previous scriptures and follow this definition I can bring you historical proof too
also
I agree with you that the definition of solaa was widely understood but if it was a ritual prayer we would have at least seen a few ask how to uphold it or how many rakas or something like that, just because its definition was the widely understood does not mean its method was, and its not like the Quranic method would be the same as the method of the disbelievers either in performing it so we should at least see a question or two by converts or disbelievers on how to perform it the Quranic way but we don't
so you think one ask how to perform salat?!?! oh my bad "solaa"
Also
that verse might be interpreted as it being a ritual but no proof in it being a ritual prayer
this is strange, you said the verse "may" be referrence to ritual yet say there is no proof of rritual prayer. SO why mention BOW AND worship your lord?!? i think you are confuse on what ritual mean
hadith=historical facts? its a historical fact Muhammad declared holy war on the infidels to then I guess
hadiths is history. but wait, do you thing the hadiths is the only proof of salat/solaa is a ritual prayer? what about historical temples, masjid, churches etc.
we see a few instances in the Bible where the former prophets prostrated on the ground and that means defining solaa as ritual prayer is consistent with the previous scriptures?
no few, many! and yes. GOD said bow and worship (2277) and in previous scrpiture we see MESSENGERS (not just regular folks) bowing and worshiping. Yet you deny! like i said, the biggest problem those who deny ritual prayer is GOD scriptureS.
nope, your trying to define the word salat which is a nonQuranic word, the word is "solaa" which is just plain link, connection, tie, bond, etc.
salat or solaa, they are refernces the same thing. just like shaitan or satan, Jesus or Isa.
the definitions? where do we see in the previous scriptures being told to uphold a ritual prayer, I see many times where we are told to uphold the covenant
didnt you just as will see "instance" yet many reference to messenger bowing and wroshing.
Also base on the Koran the covenant is not salat (283).
nope, my definition of salat is baptism LMAO I have Quranic proof too 443 and 56, please stop ignoring the previous scriptures and follow this definition I can bring you historical proof too
wait wait wait....BAPTISM?.....wow!
PLEASE proof that. BAPTISM?lol so you translate jihad based on context but not salat? but I can prove to you jihad is holy way based off of "true" historical "facts", there is no mention of "ritual prayer" in the Quran either btw
i use solaa/salat in context as well. For example, not every mention of salat is reference ritual contact prayer.
What you fail to realize is that i have more proof, at leat 4, not just historical proof.
there is no mention of "ritual prayer" in the Quran either btw
i think you are confuse on what ritual mean. everthing comanment in the Koran are rituals by defintions. look it up.
nope, I don't define salat based on its root words either
But i define salat by
(1) root words
(2) historical facts
(3) previous scriptures
and much more.
But how do you define salat? instincts?wrong, its a illogical to use the same historical source to help define one word and disregard it to define another
who is doing that. I am define salat/solaa on more that just history remember.
Arabic language salat doesnt even occur in the Quran, solaa means link, dua means prayer, you have no lingual support, previous scriptures never order us to uphold a ritual prayer, so none of this works
once again with the inconsitency.
1st you saidnope, I don't define salat based on its root words either
then you say
Arabic language salat doesnt even occur in the Quran, solaa means link, dua means prayer
make up your mind, solaa mean what baptisim or link? what?
you don't know my definition, your just assuming, I think solaa means link/connection/bond/tie/etc. which is what it means linguistically
solaa mean link now but baptisim later
my definition of salat is baptism
then you dont use the arabic root worsd to define solaa/salat
nope, I don't define salat based on its root words either
you are either confusing me or yourself.
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[
Dont ask me...ask the submitters movement or quranists who hold that there is a ritual prayer.
We muslims follow Allah and his messenger and pray like the prophet did.
Peace
So, are you in agreement that it is impossible to get the exact and precise detail of how the majority of Muslims pray just from the Quran? I mean, the detail which you feel is present in the non Quranic hadith?
Haven't you then answered your own question (with regards to people who the Quran only)?!
Bearing this in mind, do you think you can be a Muslim if you follow only the Quran(there can only be a yes/no answer)?
By the way, with regards to your last sentence, I also believe I follow God and his messenger, but the difference between me and you is that I trust God's words and believe them to be complete and fully detailed as He states, whereas you follow the historical recollections of men and elevate them to the status of God's revelations (and in fact above).
1015 shows Muhammad followed ONLY 'what was revealed unto him'.
619 is one verse which shows that it was the Quran which was revealed unto Muhammad.
1015
Transliteration Wa-itha tutla AAalayhim ayatuna bayyinatin qala allatheena la yarjoona liqaana i/ti biqur-anin ghayri hatha aw baddilhu qul ma yakoonu lee an obaddilahu min tilqa-i nafsee in attabiAAu illa ma yooha ilayya innee akhafu in AAasaytu rabbee AAathaba yawmin AAatheemin
Y.Ali But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say 'Bring us a reading other than this, or change this,' Say 'It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it I follow naught but what is revealed unto me if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come).'
R.Khalifa When our revelations are recited to them, those who do not expect to meet us say, 'Bring a Quran other than this, or change it!' Say, 'I cannot possibly change it on my own. I simply follow what is revealed to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of an awesome day.'
Pickthal And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them, they who look not for the meeting with Us say Bring a Lecture other than this, or change it. Say (O Muhammad) It is not for me to change it of my accord. I only follow that which is inspired in me. Lo! if I disobey my Lord I fear the retribution of an awful Day.
Shakir And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.
Literal And if Our signs/verses evidences are read/recited on them, those who do not hope/expect meeting Us said "Come/bring with a Koran other than that or exchange/replace it ." Say "(It) is not to me that I exchange/replace it from my self/spontaneously/willingly that I follow except what is inspired/revealed to me, that I fear if I disobeyed my Lord (from) a great day's torture."619
Transliteration Qul ayyu shay-in akbaru shahadatan quli Allahu shaheedun baynee wabaynakum waoohiya ilayya hatha alqur-anu li-onthirakum bihi waman balagha a-innakum latashhadoona anna maAAa Allahi alihatan okhra qul la ashhadu qul innama huwa ilahun wahidun wa-innanee baree-on mimma tushrikoona
Y.Ali Say 'What thing is most weighty in evidence?' Say 'Allah is witness between me and you; This Qur'an hath been revealed to me by inspiration, that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there is another Allah?' Say 'Nay! I cannot bear witness!' Say 'But in truth He is the one Allah, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him.'
R.Khalifa Say, 'Whose testimony is the greatest?' Say, 'GOD's. He is the witnes between me and you that this Quran has been inspired to me, to preac it to you and whomever it reaches. Indeed, you bear witness that ther are other gods beside GOD.' Say, 'I do not testify as you do; there is only one god, and I disown your idolatry.'
Pickthal Say (O Muhammad) What thing is of most weight in testimony? Say Allah is Witness between me and you. And this Qur'an hath been inspired in me, that I may warn therewith you and whomsoever it may reach. Do ye in sooth bear witness that there are gods beside Allah? Say I bear no such witness. Say He is only One Allah. Lo! I am innocent of that which ye associate (with Him).
Shakir Say What thing is the weightiest in testimony? Say Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches. Do you really bear witness that there are other gods with Allah? Say I do not bear witness. Say He is only one Allah, and surely I am clear of that which you set up (with Him).
Literal Say "Which thing (is) greater (in) testimony/certification ?" Say "God (is an) honest witness between me and between you (P), and (it is) transmitted/revealed to me this the Koran, to warn you with it and who (was) reached (informed); that you are witnessing/testifying (E), that with God, (are) other Gods." Say "I do not witness/testify." Say "But He is one God, and that I am innocent from what you share (with God)."