A personal view regarding salat
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Salaam.
I've recently come to the conclusion based on reading Quran that there are 3 as well. I do not know any Arabic and I'm far from a scholarly type so this was difficult for me and I did a lot of reading and checking of things...but basically I am not that knowledgable so I'd settled on the 3...to me they seem to be mentioned.
But from following the links that progressive1993 posted above I see others have come to the conclusion of 2. Wow!! So I've gone from 5 to 3 and now I'm wondering if I am on the right path with those. I'm sure it's ok to do more, but at some stage I will have to take more time, as you seem to have, to really delve into it. I don't think I have the energy and certainly not the time today.
"I feel that the main theme for salat is not the number of times we should pray each day but that prayer is something we need to do regularly. Although the main times emphasised are Dawn, Dusk and during night time (some may argue we also have to pray during the day)."
I actually got the idea of 3 being dawn, noon and dusk, but that may be (as stated) due to my lack of Arabic and inclination to delve deep enough. -[
Quran certainly does seem to emphasise the ''regularity'' of salaat. Thanks for posting this as it's on my mind.
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rana,
don't drive yourself crazy
just be as honest to yourself as you can be, and think about all the information you can get (or are able to get) very patiently..then everything will be fine=)
have in mind that god does not except from us humans something to do what we are not able to.i also know most of the verses which are used to underline the 2/3-salahs-a-day theories, and i think the critical point here which decides between two or three salahs is the way how you understand the word "as-salatil-wusta", which is often translated as "the middle prayer"..some understand it as a third prayer in the middle of the day-> you get 3 prayers a day!
others understand it as the way one should pray, making it an explanation of the part of the verse before-> you get 2 prayers a day!personally, i would support the 2-salah theory, as there are (as far as i know) only two times to make salah mentioned in the quran, which are dawn and dusk, thus also would understand the term "salatil-wusta" as the way the salah has to be made, as the verse tells us first to take care/attend to the salawat (arabic hafidhu 'alas-salawati), and after that it reads "was-salatil-wusta", commonly understood as "the middle prayer", explaining for me that we should not make the prayer easygoing, nor should we exaggerate in it, but we should use a way in the middle.
my understanding could be wrong, as i am a human being just like the others, and that i can read and understand arabic does not make my interpretation better than those who cannot say even one word in arabic..
god does not teach us the quran/reading in arabic, but he teaches us the meaning of its message..and this message is not connected to any language
peace!
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peace!
after i send my last post here, i got in mind to ask you something..
i would like to ask all of you who do the prayer to explain me how you do it..?
do you pray like sunni/shia, or do you all have your individual way of praying?would really like to know that..=)
salam!
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The time that I begun to reading the Quran, I realized that there is something strange with word "salat" which translated as "namadh/prayer" in my readings. The situation that I've seen is very annoying and illogic in all aspects within translations. I was having strong sense that there is something wrong here. The portrayal of a God which commands to this kind of rituals was not acceptable concept for me anyway.
Then I begun to research and I saw that I was not only one in same question. I have realized that the problem was related with fabrication of new alternative religion named "Islam" and its pagan based rituals. Muslim scholars and follower translators were not able to realize or gave not sufficient effort to understanding what happened during revelation years.
What I see after some mind blowing efforts is salat was something kind of social duty with strong relationship within God's principles (deen/DYN). This duty was expanding whole day as not as like prayer/namadh. The base aspect of salat was straighting up (Iqaama) God's principles in nation with assigning ourselves/themselves by social duties/works. During communicating with people and spreading out Qur'an, Mohammad made his salat in his own way. This was exactly what should be expected from him. He succeeded in his way but a lot of things went astray of this way later.
And the messenger saith O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur?an of no account.
Peace.
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peace exodus,
I agree with you.
For my own view see here (already linked to in this thread)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htmpeace Wakas,
I have readen your article already. I could not find a chance for confirming that we are in similar view. Then, this is the time.
Peace.
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don't drive yourself crazy
Salaam Al-Sabr
It's too late yeah rotfl
I really appreciate your explanation regarding the middle prayer. I will of course continue to read and learn and ponder, but that gives me something to look out for. For the moment I am happy enough doing the 3. In fact I feel so relieved doing 3 - I feel much more like I'm heading in the right direction.
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Peace all
Seems like you have had a great debate today. )
@ Progressive1993 Thank you for those links. There are some interesting ideas there. I can understand why some people would argue for only two prayer times but I?m still not entirely convinced. hmm
Verse 11114 can be translated as follows. ?? keep up the prayer at both ends of the day, and during parts of the night. For me the two ends of day are dawn and dusk. Although some might argue that the two ends are dawn and when the Sun is at its highest point in the sky, leading to the midday prayer.
The two prayers mentioned in the Quran by name, Fajr and Isha. Traditionally Isha is namely the night time prayer however I would suggest that this would probably be the name for the dusk time prayer.
We also know that the prophet used to pray during the night.
Verse 7320 ?? Your Lord is well aware that you sometimes spend nearly two-thirds of the night at prayer??sometimes half, sometimes a third??as do some of your followers.?? The word for prayer in this verse is taqumu which means to stand. I basically believe the prophet would stand up to pray during the night.
My Arabic is not perfect and I?m sure there are those on here who have better Arabic skills then I do. But I can get the general gist of the verses with a bit of research and looking at different translations.
However I did not want to get into a debate at this time regarding how many prayers there are just wanted to say that I do not believe that this has to be a daily ritual but rather done regularly.
@ Rana
Quran certainly does seem to emphasise the ''regularity'' of salaat. Thanks for posting this as it's on my mind.You're welcome. The concept of salat is always something that?s been on my mind too. I have an issue with how its seen by Hadithists as the main definition of being a Muslim. If you don?t pray then you are a bad Muslim or not a Muslim at all in their minds. I also hate that many Muslims are taught or teach that if you miss prayers you will go to hell and none of your good deeds will count towards anything. I can?t believe that god would disregard all your good deeds simply because you missed a few prayers in your life. Sometimes it's not easy to do your prayers especially if you follow the 5 day version which I used to do. I found it hard keeping to the prayer timetable was usually late and was told by a number of people its then not counted towards some sort of quota or something.
@ Al sabr. I pray in a similar way to the traditional method. However I only say surat al fatiha when I am standing up. I have taken away all references to the prophet and praising him and his family as we should only be praising Allah. Also when I end my prayer I don?t praise the angels on my left and right instead I end (without turning my head left and right) by saying Al-Hamdu lilAllah Rab Al-Alameen.. Verse 1010 ??and the last part of their prayer is praise be to god lord of the universe.
Peace
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@ Rana
You're welcome. The concept of salat is always something that?s been on my mind too. I have an issue with how its seen by Hadithists as the main definition of being a Muslim. If you don?t pray then you are a bad Muslim or not a Muslim at all in their minds. I also hate that many Muslims are taught or teach that if you miss prayers you will go to hell and none of your good deeds will count towards anything. I can?t believe that god would disregard all your good deeds simply because you missed a few prayers in your life. Sometimes it's not easy to do your prayers especially if you follow the 5 day version which I used to do. I found it hard keeping to the prayer timetable was usually late and was told by a number of people its then not counted towards some sort of quota or something.Salaam yesuri2000.
I have also considered that same thing about prayers and how good deeds could be so easily disregarded etc. It is hard to manage 5 prayers daily along with everything else. I tried my best and I didn't complain because I ''believed'' at that time that Allah had asked us to do it. I can't argue with that (though if you've seen my recent post on parents you might argue that I wouldn't argue... P). So I just did my best, but it did always seem strange that it was sooo black and white.
Interestingly last night I talked with a friends about my concerns re hadith. It was the first time I had really expressed these concerns with a Muslim, as in further than just trying to discuss, actually saying I have no faith in hadith (& other than with my husband). It went down quite well - she is a smart lady and he is not entirely conventional herself so it was a good place to begin.
The interesting part for me was that she took everything really well as she realises we must question (perhaps she assumes I will return to hadith once I find the proof lol)...but when she asked me if I was still praying and I said "yes....3 x day". Then I could tell she was shocked. Still, I can't help that. I can only explain to her why I am doing it, which I did in my own way.
So, in short (which I'm not very good at -[) - yes, for most Muslims the prayers are such a base for everything that this kind of thing can bring a strong reaction. For that particular friend I think she will be understanding and may even open herself to question herself. I can't say that for my other friends necessarily. But then I already may not be considered Muslim due to the way I did shahada so I'm not going to let the prayer thing hold me back. muscle )
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Reading through the forum now and looking back to when I joined, I find it interesting/funny how caught up people, especially new members get with the issue of salat - it seems to be the biggest debate among those who follow "quran alone". It's not necessarily a bad thing since you should investigate and find out concepts of The Quran, but it seems like a lot of people mainly like to philosophize about it. I remember me trying to get hold of the salat issue - took a while, prob. still haven't gotten it all (salat isn't just about praying or the like).
Most people, when coming into this forum assume that "salat" = prayer, which is not the case.
I would like you to look at these verses3343 He (God) is the One who yusallee unto you, along with His forces/"angels" ("malaikatahu", to lead you out of darkness into the light. He is ever Compassionate towards those who trust/believe/acknowledge.
Especially chapter 107 is interesting
1071 Do you notice who rejects the system/obligation?
1072 It is the one who mistreats the orphan
1073 And does not encourage the feeding of the poor.
1074 So woe to the musalleena (those who "slw"
1075 Who are totally heedless of their "salat"
1076 They only want to be seen,
1077 They hinder sustenanceAlso look at these
2155 We will test you with some fear and hunger, and a shortage in money and lives and fruits. Give good news to those who are patient.
2156 The ones who, when afflicted with adversity, say, "We are to God and to Him we will return."
2157 To these will be "salawat" from their Lord and compassion/embrace. They are the guided/enlightened ones.This is related to the following
9103 , take from their money a charity to purify them and improve them with it, and "salli" unto them. Your "salat" is tranquility for them, and God is Hearer, Knower.
It becomes clear that "slw" does not mean "prayer" in these verses. "Slw" is compared to embracing, bonding, etc.
It is also compared to helping and supporting people, charity, sustenance, etc.
Notice that God does not "pray" to us (see 2157 and 3343), so it would be silly to translate "slw" in those verses as something prayer-related, which even traditionalist translators admit, looking at their translations.I suggest to study the topics in The Quran with an open mind without ANY preconceptions, which is hard, but you need to try.
Peace
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I believe salah has many meanings, in the arabic language one word has many meanings and sometimes one thing has many names, So there"s many differnt meanigs to salat also, so how can we see them bowing and prostrating? or maybe bowing and prostrating is something else? than how do we see someone bowing and prostrating if it's not physically ? i believe see them means looking with our eyes or does it have another meaning?
the 3 salats are the salats that the sunnis do with moderate voice, 2 in fadjr 2 in maghrib and 2 in isha , if u eliminate all their false rakaas wich they do silently, u end up taking out dhohr, asr, 1 rakaa from maghrib and 2 rakaa from isha, u end up with 3 correct salat, this is what i think, i might be wrong but use
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Hi Loxbox
I totally agree with you. Words can have different meanings. Even the English language words can have different meanings. These are known as homographs. For example you have the word Desert. This can mean to abandon somewhere or a dry barren area like the deserts of Arabia.
Progressive1993 you be right with the verses you used that the slw does not mean prayer but other verses in the quran which use slw do mean prayer.
The quran shows examples of when people prayed, either prostrating, standing up or bowing down and even how loud you should be and that we should be clean before we pray.
17 110 Say, ?Call on God, or on the Lord of Mercy- whatever names you call Him, the best names belong to Him. Do not be too loud (in prayers) ''Bisalitika'' , or too quiet, but seek a middle way.
2277 Believers, bow down, prostrate yourselves, worship your Lord, and do good so that you may succeed (yes the slw is not used in this verse but the actions of how we should worship god are shown here).
56 You who believe, when you are about to pray ''al-alati''..... (this verse is talking about doing wudu before praying)
443 You who believe, do not come anywhere near the prayer (al-salata) if you are intoxicated, not until you know what you are saying.....
I can understand the arguments that the ''slw'' in the Quran does not necessarily mean prayer in some verses. However my feelings are that as a Muslim we do need to pray and remember our lord.
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Progressive1993 you be right with the verses you used that the slw does not mean prayer but other verses in the quran which use slw do mean prayer.
17 110 Say, ?Call on God, or on the Lord of Mercy- whatever names you call Him, the best names belong to Him. Do not be too loud (in prayers) ''Bisalitika'' , or too quiet, but seek a middle way.
So a clear voice is only needed in prayers? What about reading aloud?
2277 Believers, bow down, prostrate yourselves, worship your Lord, and do good so that you may succeed (yes the slw is not used in this verse but the actions of how we should worship god are shown here).
Correct, slw is not mentioned - why assume that it is linked to slw then?
Also, the verse is translated poorly.2277 O you who have attained trust/faith! Show humbleness to, submit to and serve your lord, and do good that you may succeed.
I can understand the arguments that the ''slw'' in the Quran does not necessarily mean prayer in some verses. However my feelings are that as a Muslim we do need to pray and remember our lord.
The "mumineen" are asked to keep up the "salat" (bond), not the "muslimeen" http//free-minds.org/node/10
I also suggest that you read through all the links here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598319.0Peace
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Salaam Rana,
I really appreciate your explanation regarding the middle prayer. I will of course continue to read and learn and ponder, but that gives me something to look out for. For the moment I am happy enough doing the 3. In fact I feel so relieved doing 3 - I feel much more like I'm heading in the right direction.
Three times -salaat- a day seems to be supported by the Koran.
Verse 2267 For each community we have decreed a set of rites that should be uphold ?..
The rite of the ?salaat- is a special element of the general form of ?salaat- in being in contact with the system prescribed by God.
The Koran states that the ?salaat- as a ritual is a special form of remembrance of God to be performed at specific time-frames.
Verse 4103 - ... the ?salawaat- are decreed for the believers at specific times. -
The followers of the Koran alone have several ideas about the number of daily ?salawaat-. The word ?salawaat- has a plural form of at least three.
The believers can be divided into groups having a two-, five- and three-system.
Regarding the completeness and perfection of the Koran only one of these systems is valid.The two-system
Some believers claim that the daily number of ?salawat- is two.
They recognise the dawn -fadjr- and evening -isha-prayer, both are mentioned in verse 2458.
Verse 2238 can be read as the believers have to perform the salawat especially the middle -woosta- prayer. The Arabic word ?we- does not always mean plus.
Verse 54 gives koranic evidence for the broader meaning of the word -we- - the (catch of) hunting-dogs as example of the allowed good things. Good things and hunting-dogs are linked by the word -we-, indicating here an example.But acceptors of the two-system translate the Arabic word -woosta- often as the excellent prayer or balanced prayer.
The Koran does not state which of the two prayers; the dawn- or evening-prayer would be the excellent or balanced one, the Koran does not state that one is more excellent or balanced than the other.
The word ?salawaat- has a plural-form of more than two - assuming that here the word ?salawaat- does not refer to all the prayers of a lifetime but to a daily system.
The Koran describes three prayer-times
Verse 2458 mentions the names of the dawn- and evening-prayer and thereby there timing.
Verse 1778 states what the third prayer-time is from the time when the sun declines from its highest point at noon until sunset.
This is confirmed by the description of the prayer in verses 629-10 during communal - commercial activities -salaat el jooma-. Before and after the prayer there are social activities, so this prayer can not be the dawn- or evening-prayer, because of the lack of required daylight before or after the social activities concerned.The five-system
Most believers claim that the daily number of ?salawaat- is five.
This only can be done when sources next to the Koran are accepted.
The Koran mentions only three salaats -fadjr- (dawn) - 2458, -woosta- (middle) - 2238, -aisha- (evening) - 2458.
-Salaat el dhoor-, -salaat el asr- and -salaat el maghreb- and the timing of them are not found in the Koran - these are human innovations.
Acceptors of the five-system seem to have an inconsistent way of reading verse 11114 and verse 2238.
They read verse 11114 in a way that there would be three prayer-times mentioned in it. They say that this verse relates to the prayers at both borders of the day - dawn and evening and that there would be a third one mentioned the night prayer.
If this would be correct then the middle prayer of verse 2238 would be -salaat el maghreb- in their system.
But the Arabic word -we- both in verse 2238 and verse 11114 is better not to be read as plus, but as a connective word indicating an example, explanation or stipulation.
In verse 11114 is stipulated that the dawn- and the evening-prayer should be performed during both parts of the night adjacent to the two borders of the daylight; the dawn-prayer before sunrise and the evening-prayer after sunset.
Actually the night-prayer -salaat el lail- is not mentioned in the Koran as a general ruling, verse 5040 mentions praising the Lord during the night; that does not indicate to a general ?salaat-, praising the Lord can be done throughout the 24 hour lasting day in several forms. Furthermore this verse is directed towards the messenger-prophet Mohammad.
The plural form of ?salawaat- in verse 2238 indicates that there are more than two daily ?salawaat-. If one assumes the reading of -we- as plus than there could be for instance four salawat.
There can not be a middle ?salaat- if there are only four ?salawaat-, so is assumed that there should be five ?salawaat-.
But the names of the ?salawaat- and the description of the prayer-times in the Koran relate to only three ?salawaat-, not to five.
This indicates that the word -we- in verse 2238 is not to be read as plus but rather as especially.Some notable human innovations
-Salaat el aisha- is actually the broadly accepted -maghreb-prayer.
Verses 3831-32 give koranic evidence that -aisha- is a period of the night -lail- with still some daylight - the period of dusk.
The changing of the name of -salaat el aisha- into -salaat el maghreb- and inventing an extra prayer of the total darkness, which was abusively then named as -salaat el aisha-, are human innovations.
In verse 2458 the dawn- and evening-prayer are mentioned, the -dhor-prayer is notably absent in verse 2458 and in the rest of the Koran, the word -dhor- indicates to a period of rest during the day - not to a prayer; the so called -salat el dhor- is a human innovation.
The so called -asr-prayer is not mentioned in the Koran either and there is no description of its timing in the Koran, there is no mentioning of the technique of a stick and it's halfway-shadow to measure the assumed timing - this is hadeeth-based conjecture; the -asr-prayer is a human innovation.The three-system
Some believers recognize that there are three koranic timings of the daily ?salawaat-.
The Koran mentions only three prayers and describes three prayer-timings
-salaat el fadjr- 2458 dawn - 2187, 11114
-salaat el woosta- 2238 afternoon until sunset - 1778, 629-10
-salaat el aisha- 2458 evening - 11114, 3831-32Truthseeker171
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Salam
Thanks Truthseeker that was a really good explanation regarding the timings of salat.
Salat al wasta to me indicates the middle prayer. I'm not sure how it is translated to excellent or balanced one. And you are correct the Quran does not state which prayer is the excellent one if indeed it is only two times.
2277 O you who have attained trust/faith! Show humbleness to, submit to and serve your lord, and do good that you may succeed.
Progressive you said that the translation I used was poor. Could you show where you got your translation from, is it your own translation? I have just gone over a number of translations and can not find one similar to yours. Just some examples
Muhammed Asad O YOU who have attained to faith! Bow down and prostrate yourselves, and worship your Sustainer , and do good, so that you might attain to a happy state!
Pickthall O ye who believe! Bow down and prostrate yourselves, and worship your Lord, and do good, that haply ye may prosper.
Progressive muslims O you who believe, kneel and prostrate and serve your Lord and do good that you may succeed.
Abdul Haleem Believers, bow down, prostrate yourselves, worship your Lord, and do good so that you may succeed. (This is the translation I have used previously)
Muhammed Sarwar Believers, worship your Lord, bow down and prostrate yourselves before Him and do virtuous deeds so that perhaps you will have everlasting happiness.
Rashad Khalifa O you who believe, you shall bow, prostrate, worship your Lord, and work righteousness, that you may succeed.
George Sale O true believers, bow down, and prostrate your selves, and worship your Lord; and work righteousness, that ye may be happy
All the above translations (there are more) seem to point to bowing down or kneeling and prostrating yourself in the worship of god.
yayyuh alladhna man ir'ka (bow) wa-us'jud (prostate) wa-u'bud rabbakum waifAAaloo alkhayra laAAallakum tuflihoona
Correct, slw is not mentioned - why assume that it is linked to slw then?
I have linked it to slw because I am not sure in what other aspect bowing down and prostrating is done other than when you are praying.
Peace
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peace truthseeker,
Your explanation and reasoning is poor in some places. You refer to points not even made, e.g. I have never read anyone who advocates the two system implying there is one salat better than the other, and trying to determine which is one is most balanced/excellent. Then members such as yesuri respond saying you provided a good explanation!
I wouldn't mind so much but when you click on the salat section of the forum, there is a thread made sticky with a compilation of links of the most informative discussions on the forum about various points, yet its obvious some haven't even read it.
There is no point in repeating it over and over, it's all on the forum for people to review.
If a person is confused about salat, good. Now ask that same person have they read and studied every occurrence of salat in The Quran? I wonder how many confused people would answer yes? Less than 1%?
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Salaam Wakas
Your explanation and reasoning is poor in some places. You refer to points not even made, e.g. I have never read anyone who advocates the two system implying there is one salat better than the other, and trying to determine which is one is most balanced/excellent. Then members such as yesuri respond saying you provided a good explanation!
I wouldn't mind so much but when you click on the salat section of the forum, there is a thread made sticky with a compilation of links of the most informative discussions on the forum about various points, yet its obvious some haven't even read it.
There is no point in repeating it over and over, it's all on the forum for people to review.
If a person is confused about salat, good. Now ask that same person have they read and studied every occurrence of salat in The Quran? I wonder how many confused people would answer yes? Less than 1%?
May be it is good to consider your role as a moderator here - if you have a more objective or more subjective attitude in this matter.
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You state that in some places my explanation and reasoning is poor - without giving evidence for this.
You only hint to my opinion about existing interpretations of the word -woosta- as balanced and excellent.
I do not know what you have read on several sites about this subject - but some believers believe for instance that the -woosta-, here as the middle-prayer, is the excellent prayer because it is supposed to be more difficult to pray during social activities - compared to the relative solitude of the morning and the evening.
Anyway the interpretation of -woosta- as balanced or excellent implies that there would be another less balanced and less excellent type or timing of -salaat-. For this there seems not to be any evidence in the Koran. -
In your answer to Exodus of October 12, 2010, 021701 PM, you say that you agree with the writer, in regarding -salaat- as a form of social duty within the systeem of Deen - Why did you not mind then to mention that this discussion is repetitive according to your opinion?
The impression arises that as long as you agree then the subject is allowed and at the moment where arguments are brougth forward that you disagree on, you act as a moderator to warn against repetition of subjects and say that you are minding much - anyway it is good that you point to the sticky subject on several subjects on -salaat-.
I hope you will consider this,
peace,
Truthseeker171 -
