WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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Peace Wakas,
I fail to see the contradiction
We said to the malaika SJD to/for adam/mankind, but iblees did not SJD.
The above strongly implies iblees was of the malaika, but as we know, malaika do as ordered. So how do we resolve this contradiction? This was discussed in this thread.
IF iblees was designed not to SJD to/for mankind, where is the contradiction?
If Canon design a voice-activated printer, which always does as requested, then its engineer says to it "laminate a document" and it does not laminate, where is the contradiction? To me, it needs clarified. It would only be a contradiction if it was said to it "print a document" and it did not print.
To determine whether it is a contradiction or not we have to know what it was designed to do.
I just realised, in AQ it seems to suggest specific malaika for specific tasks, they have a remit, they have control over a certain thing, which would also make sense with the above.
If a better answer can be given, I am all ears.
712
said "What prevented you that not you prostrate tasjuda when I commanded you?"
said "I am better than him. You created me from fire and You created him from clay."That is disobedience of a direct command thus designed with autonomy to agree/disagree.
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Peace brother Wakas,
Can you clarify where you get these statements from
However, when he disobeyed, it was taken away from him.
If any "controlling force" disobeys the god then he would cease to be a "controlling force".I got them from your statement here
God could take it away.
You agreed that being a "controlling force" is something that can be given to any creature and taken away by the god from any creature. We know that "contolling forces" do not disobey the god. Since this is a status that can be given or taken away by the god then saying that "controlling forces do not disobey the god" as a general principle is like saying "good students do not get bad grades". The minute a good student gets bad grades, he stops being a "good student". This is exactly like the minute a "controlling force" disobeys the god he stops being a "controlling force".
They should serve God, whether they do or not is a different matter, but as I said, "iblees" was designed not to SJD, thus did exactly as designed to do.
One serves the god by obeying him. If one is not obeying the god than he is not serving him. The design of the god is for "jinn" to serve him, and thus obey him. Clearly, Iblis was given freedom of choice and this is why the god asked him about why he disobeyed his command. Otherwise, the question would be meaningless.
Also, please remember that everything in the heavens and the earth does "sujud" (obedience) to the god. The god doesn't say everything except "jinn".
Peace,
Ayman
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peace Bro Ayman,
Thanks for the explanation.
I said "could" as I wasn't sure if it actually was taken away. The reason I still regard iblees as a controlling force is that I think iblees still has some remit of control, i.e. that part of our psyche that can be influenced by iblees. This seems to be clearly suggested in AQ, e.g. 716-17.
Also, you seem to be saying iblees is no longer a malaika, and is a jinn, but then you implied jinn serve/obey God, but in your view iblees does not. Can you clarify?
Clearly, Iblis was given freedom of choice and this is why the god asked him about why he disobeyed his command. Otherwise, the question would be meaningless.
It is interesting God asks "iblees" such a question, because obviously God is all-knowing. So I asked myself, why would God ask such a thing? To me, the answer was obvious, it is rhetorical, asked for our benefit, i.e. to tell the recipients of the narrative something.
Also, please remember that everything in the heavens and the earth does "sujud" (obedience) to the god. The god doesn't say everything except "jinn".
I have been studying this recently as it happens and my understanding is as follows. The above is also said of "aSLaMa", and "SaBiH". If there are other words/terms it says this for I'd be interested to know. To me, there is a difference between "aSLaMa" in the true sense, and the theoretical or superficial sense. For example, if someone submits to me and does what I tell them, it would be true to say they are in "submission" to me, BUT this does not tell us if they are doing it out of free choice, i.e. their own decision, or are just doing it for other reasons. Same can be said of SJD. If someone obeys me, they are in obedience to me, but this does not tell us if they are doing so because they out of free choice etc. That is why everything in universe SJD/SLM/SBH, it is only those who do so out of their own free choice will succeed.
I asked myself, what these terms have in common and I realised they are terms that have a power-relation paradigm, they have something inherent about them that is a subordination component. I would be interested to know if this observation holds for any other terms.
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I said "could" as I wasn't sure if it actually was taken away. The reason I still regard iblees as a controlling force is that I think iblees still has some remit of control, i.e. that part of our psyche that can be influenced by iblees. This seems to be clearly suggested in AQ, e.g. 716-17. Wakas
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/014.%20Ibrahim%20alahissalam/14.22b.gif
and there was nothing of authority for me upon you people except that I invited you people whereupon/for reason you people responded for me,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/014.%20Ibrahim%20alahissalam/14.22c.gif
therefore you people do not blame/objurgate me instead you blame/objurgate your selves.1422
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u guys are talking about the unseen, before we say iblis is an angel or not, we fiest have to understand what angels really are, are they beigns with wings? like birds? wian is satan? is he a beign red colored with horns?
i believe there are many kinds of angels, and one of all that kinds was ibliss and his progeny or followers , angels are different from each other, probably satan had authaurity that he enjoyed willingly until the command came to him just like all other angels, his kind of angel was called the jinn, just like there a kind of angel called jibreel or mickel , and most others are called angeles , ibliss isn't didn't go out of the mercy of allah because of desobeidiance, but because of pride , but in the end ibliss obeis allah 100% just like the other angels, when allah casted him out of his mercy, and destuned him to hell, allah made him work on us as the evil one who show us the wrong way, just as angels show us the right way, so mankind can choose and be tested , actually ibliss is living hell for he's working with no rest, he's obeiying god unwillingly , that's how the story sounds to me , peace -
peace Mazhar,
Thanks for the verses, however, having control over something simply means they are in charge of a certain function, whatever that is. For example, the function of tempting/deluding/deviating but does not mean it is compulsory, only that they can do this function.
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Okay, I was saying "the human being (ego) must battle with his jinn (id) to reach peace and submission (super-ego)".
For a moment, I thought that I was saying that the super-ego was God. But I've come to realize that by battling one's jinn, the human being isn't reaching the status of God, he's reaching the status of controller (in constant praise of God). He obeys God at all times, no matter what.
However, to reach this status is impossible, because the man (ego) is constantly in battle with his jinn (id). This is a universal truth. No human is perfect. He will continue to eat, drink, have sexual intercourse, etc. His basic desires will always be present. He can control them, but he can't get rid of them.
The super-ego is thus characterised by its desire to reach perfection. Even though it will never actually reaches perfection, this is where God's infinite Mercy kicks in. And ta-daaa! You're all forgiven.Have I completely strayed off topic, or am I making sense?
Peace,
interesting thoughts...did you try to link that with "sawm".
peace
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Angel is an angel, man is man and a jinn is a jin
Angels are creatures that we never understand, maybe everything around us is angels
Man we can understand, it's us, created from HAMA MASNONJinn we can not know them for now, because we left the quran and went for mythology of hadith brought from christians, jews and greeks concept, not a quranic concept
Jinn and Mankind Dwell in the earth , so they're both alive, how can a jinn serve god if he's not a living beign
Jinn knows us but we don't know them, it says so in the quran, meaning we don't know them because they look just like us, they rule al over the world since the islamic empire declined and than fall,
Jinn inserted methology in hadith, so the trick will always keep wrking, making us believe that Ibliss and his progeny don't exist
how will Ibliss and Jinn have progeny ? Just like us
Most of them are in front of us on TV or sometimes in the streets, they never devulgue their true identity for any human, it's their nature, they infiktrate good people to create confusion and lead them to disaster, they inspire good people for doing mischief , now they're using media, music, news, propaganda, psychology etc....
Jinn live and die , some of them become muslim and live a quiet life, most of them feel siperior at humans so they'll never accept a prophet of a book from god, actually they don't even like allah for creating human species who bothered them in the earth
Allah send prophets only humans, never djinn, and the djin they don't like this so they rebelled, they keep their bloodline secured and pur djinn since written history
they're smarter than us when we're confused, insecure, .... but they fear us if we become pious, smart, good, because they don't have any power to harm a human beign directly by nature, that's why they use their friends humans to pull the trigger everytime, they have the help of Ibliss because he is still alive since adam, he knows history and all the tricks how to mislead a straight way of life brought by prophets, the same story with the jews and talmud, the christiand and the books of the church, the muslims and hadiths etc....
Humans came from Africa according to science, Djinn maybe came from somewhere else, europe maybe, when humans went to europe, the problems started and the conflit between man and jinn really began, why i dhose europe? not al europeens are Jinn, all europeens are humans except a few, those who ususlly rule , that is why there was never recorded in history a prophet from europe , well I don't know
Maybe i'm just saying anything, but maybe it's close to the truth
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hello everyone. Iblis was very high ranked and liked by Allah so he was privileged to be amongst where Allahs angels resided and worshiped Allah. but after he did not listen to Allah as he told all his angels and Iblis to bow and show respect to Adam. all the angels did as they have no free will but Iblis this shows us how he is a jinn and has free will and decided he was more powerful than Adam. this angered Allah which resulted in what happened to Iblis.
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So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together (30) Not so Iblis he refused to be among those who prostrated themselves. 1530-31Doesn't this verse say that the angels prostrated , all of them, no exception ? doesn't this mean that Iblees has nothing to do with angels?
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Iblis is not an angel. Don't know why anyone would even think that. Angels are a manifestation of God's will they can only obey God. I believe the Qur'an makes it explicitly clear that Iblis is a jinn he's made of fire. The angels are made of light I believe. Jinn and Humans are the only ones capable of choosing to worship or not to worship God. Angels have no choice. That is why a righteous human will always be greater than an angel and the angels bow to us.
Even though we can sin, we have the ability to do LIMITLESS good. An angel can only do the good that God commands. We can just keep doing good and doing good and doing good until we die. And our good deeds are by choice which is also important angels are simply told and they obey.
peace
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Iblis is not an angel. Don't know why anyone would even think that. Angels are a manifestation of God's will they can only obey God. I believe the Qur'an makes it explicitly clear that Iblis is a jinn he's made of fire. The angels are made of light I believe. Jinn and Humans are the only ones capable of choosing to worship or not to worship God. Angels have no choice. That is why a righteous human will always be greater than an angel and the angels bow to us.
Even though we can sin, we have the ability to do LIMITLESS good. An angel can only do the good that God commands. We can just keep doing good and doing good and doing good until we die. And our good deeds are by choice which is also important angels are simply told and they obey.
peace
Here is your verse
Behold! We said to the angels "Bow down to Adam" they bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrongdoers! 1850
This verse is clear that Ibliss was a Jinn and not an angel, unless someone has a better explanation ! the explanation of the quran is the true explanation
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It is interesting people can read the same verse and have different conclusions, but my view still remains, as stated previously
And when We said to the controllers "Give acknowledgement to Adam." so they acknowledged except iblees, he was of the jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord.
From PRL on JNN "Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels)". As can be seen, jinn is a subset of malaika, in Classical Arabic dictionaries. What I have said is nothing new.
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It is interesting people can read the same verse and have different conclusions, but my view still remains, as stated previously
And when We said to the controllers "Give acknowledgement to Adam." so they acknowledged except iblees, he was of the jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord.
From PRL on JNN "Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels)". As can be seen, jinn is a subset of malaika, in Classical Arabic dictionaries. What I have said is nothing new.
I believe we can never understand correctly unless we know what jinns really are, because the first verse, says the angles prostrated, all of them, meaning it's excluding the jinns
MAlaika I believe are forces and phenomenas of nature , that controls everything, serves everything, the Jinns are biological beigns, living on earth so they are limited like us
it's just my mind speaking <without proof -
It is interesting people can read the same verse and have different conclusions, but my view still remains, as stated previously
And when We said to the controllers "Give acknowledgement to Adam." so they acknowledged except iblees, he was of the jinn, so he disobeyed the order of his Lord.
From PRL on JNN "Spiritual beings that conceal themselves from the senses (including angels)". As can be seen, jinn is a subset of malaika, in Classical Arabic dictionaries. What I have said is nothing new.
Damn I still remember Dhulqarnain from back in the days...its a shame he got banned because he did bring some challenging debates...anyways.......
Just to add my 2 cents to this topic
Should we be looking at verses of Allah communicating to xyz in a different light. The reason why I say this is because there are many verses interpreted as anthropomorphic in the Quran when Allah communicates i.e Allah asking heaven and earth to come willingly or unwillingly and both replying, the mountain replying etc.
Also how would the following verse tie into jinn being a different specie to humans when the verse hints to jinns having minds, ears and eyes?? If anyone is good at arabic please can you see if the arabic grammar relates to jinn too?
And We have committed to Hell many Jinn and humans; they had hearts with which they did not comprehend, and they had eyes with which they did not see, and they had ears with which they did not hear. They are like cattle; no, they are even more astray. These are the unaware ones. 7179
PEACE
