Are we hated or just discriminated
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675 And We have adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and We made it with projectiles against the devils; and We prepared for them the retribution of the blazing Fire.
Is wrongly interpreted, it's because they didn't understand it's meaning,
RUJUMAN LI SHAYATIN
RUJUMAN = Rejection
SHAYATEEN = disorder = abarchy = rebellion = bad = negatif
Satan is christian lanunguage doesn't have the same concept as the quran, in the quran it's disorder, hate, jealousy, .........etc .. All negative forces, no horns, no red color, ect...Therefore Rejection of Disorder
i seek refuge from shaitan Rajeem means the evil the rejected675 And We have adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and We made it with a rejection to disorder; and We prepared for them the retribution of the blazing Fire.
people who translated it, did it from Hadith according to their superstitions and what they wanted us to believe, nut this verse is obvious in it's meaning
37 6-8 We have adorned the lower heaven with the (Zinet = beauty not decoration)decoration of planets.
And to guard against every rebellious devil (not devil but shaytan marid).
They cannot listen to the command up high; and they are bombarded from every side.Meaning according to our sight , what we see with our eyes so that we reflect
37 6-8 We adorned the lowest heaven with the beauty of planets
And a protection from every malicious(Marid) disorde(shaitanin)
they won't find any side to do the disorderSo thiese verses are all about balance in the cosmos
I hope this helped
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Emil, I recognize the situation you described quite well. Group hug. group
I'd say we are hated, which is completely understandable. Our movement is a direct challenge to a millennium of established doctrinal Islam, and our main argument is too good to be defeated in honest debate. Thus the traditionalists must attack us with fallacious arguments. They set up straw men that can easily be knocked down rather than debate our real positions (code 19), they appeal to authority (scholars know better!), majority (1.x billion muslims can't all be wrong!), tradition (we've been doing this for a thousand years so it can't be wrong!).
If they still feel they are failing to defeat you verbally, all that remains is exclusion or even threats of violence.Hatred comes from fear. From my own experience, I know how scary it is to leave the fold of Sunni-ism and embrace a higher truth. I struggled against it for a while, feeling I needed to "guard my faith" as it were. The more a person is invested in a belief system, the scarier it must be is my guess.
I guess the best we can do is choose not to reciprocate with hatred and sectarianism, but rather strive for patience, humility and tolerance.
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Code 19 ? I don't understand what code19 has to do with quranists, we try to understand the morals and the tenets of the quran, alone , without codes or hidden magical meanings, allah said he made the quran easy to understand, don't need no hadith nor code 19 nor religious leaders, allah said if u want to understand more, go ask those with knowlege, they are the mathematicians, litterature doctors, jurisprudence specialists, those people whi starved in their life in learning and prouved it by getting the highiest degrees in universities, don(t need no hadith no code19 nor new hadiths called appendix, ,
Those with knowlege say it is all from allah, and we believe in all of it , not all of it minus 2 verses or all of it but there's verses missing, ALL OF IT IS FROM ALLAHr,
I noticed that since i started searching i am very different now than from the begining, a lot of concepts changed , i realised how misunderstood ou book was, i didn't need code 19 or hadith, everyday i discover something due to the efforts of the good people who love learning the quran,
GOD BLESS -
I feel you Emil. I'm a poster on a sunni forum, orthodox deobandi and I'm hated there too. It's amazing the vile manners and harshness that comes out from people who claim to follow the sunnah of the Prophet...
Don't worry about it. The biggest thing that surprised me about myself was the loneliness I felt when I became part of ahlul Quran. It's odd, we put in such an investment our whole lives to orthodoxy that when we leave there can be a tendency to try and gain the approval of the people we used to be affiliated with. That's how it was for me anyway. Which is why I went back to a sunni forum and started posting my views, in the faint hope that people would say "hey you're right, please tell us more!" Lol didn't work out like that!
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loneliness
Yeah, that's the crappy side of becoming a heretic, isn't it? The ability to go to a mosque and pray, talk faith, share a meal during Ramadan... I miss those things. Community in faith is nice. Now I feel more isolated.
I only talk openly about my faith IRL with non-muslims, since I've learned the hard way what happens when engaging muslims.I'd like to think the gains are well worth some inconvenience though, both in this life and in the hereafter.
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Salaam,
I know how you felt, I too experienced hostility exerted by some traditional Muslims during my early stage of "converting" to Quran-based Islam. But as you move on and you live your lives according to the Qur'an, your life will be more contented (that's what I believe anyway). If you want to straighten distorted views of Islam, your best bet is by setting an example, by becoming a good Muslim who implement Qur'anic teachings. Avoid arguments or challenging people's views if possible, because people tend to be very defensive when confronted like that. God willing, when you set examples through actions, people will be drawn to you and what you believe in.
Generally now I don't challenge other people's beliefs, unless they ask me first. In the end, you have to respect their beliefs and offer peace (I know that sounds cliche). I mean... you need to stress the point that while Qur'an based Islam is what you believe in, what makes you contented, you actually respect other people's beliefs as long as they do good deeds in a peaceful way. Ultimately onto us our works, and onto them their works. Let God be the judge.
Now life has been much better for me. Most traditional Muslims I have talked to and befriended me, are okay with my beliefs. From time to time, they'll ask for a peaceful discussion, which is fine by me.
So, we need to throw away the mindset that we are "different", because that will only separate us. We are just human beings, who follows different path, but our goal is ultimately the same. That is, to follow God ). Just strive for common goals, and put aside the differences. For now ).
Anyway, I'll give you a virtual hug grouphug. And if you're ever in Australia, I'll make you feel even better by giving you lots and lots of homemade sweet treats ;D!
May peace be upon you. Always.
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Dear Brothers and Sisters
And if you obey most of those upon the earth, they will mislead you from the way of Allah. They follow not except assumption, and they are not but falsifying. Verse (6116) Translation
"O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful." (4912)
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=6&verse=116#%2861161%29
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Generally now I don't challenge other people's beliefs, unless they ask me first.
So I take it that you're past that earlier stage now? yes
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Look, to a mainstream muslim we would be apostates I think. We the Quranists reject I think about four and a half thousand instructions. Wich is i think an aproximate number of the hadiths.
Emil, I think that that is preaty much a diferent religion. Especialy if you say liberal Koranist muslim, than its nothing like the mainstream.
So I think that its a good think that you are introducing people to Quranist Islam and if someone was to understand then I supose he/she would emrace it.
Once I was at this uniting church bible study over here in Melbourne and the minister said preaty much that he is a christian because his parents were and they all agreed that they don't know wich religion is the true one. Actualy this minister was very liberal and he just about rejected half the bible.
To be continued....
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continuation of previous post... Can someone fix it so that I don't have to post twice same post please?
Ok so there are probably many muslims who are the same but would never admit that thats the case because they would be rejected by their friends and maybe family. And in some instances maybe even tried for apostazy.
What I am saying is that not everyone is capable of breaking his/her own tradition and going with what he/she truly believes.
When I was a practising suni muslim years ago I used to wander is christianity maybe the right religion since I had christian friends.
However now that I have come acros this new knowledge of how the hadith were recorded and how the Quran can be interpreted diferently like were it talks about theft I am truly comfortable and I do truly believe in this and I must say that I am very grateful to all of you and to God for showing me diferent options.
Thanks
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Look, to a mainstream muslim we would be apostates I think. We the Quranists reject I think about four and a half thousand instructions. Wich is i think an aproximate number of the hadiths.
I would agree with that. In the last couple of days, since I last posted I've had a couple of really concerning things happen...I'm not too sure about telling anyone now. I just don't know if I have the stomach for the hate to be honest. &
I've been told that if I don't accept sunnah/hadith then I don't accept Islam. In a small town the ramifications for me could be huge. I already don't fit with the non-Muslims, aside from the few who are among my close friends - now I feel on the brink of being outed from the Muslim community. '( It has already happened with another group of Muslims here. I'm sorry, my knowledge isn't very good but they believe that there was another guide/messenger after Muhammad. When these couple of families first moved to town they were invited to things like iftars; soon after they were ''outed". Nobody really speaks to them!
The last few days I feel afraid (not for my life lol - then again, I'm fortunate that I live here) but I feel I'm heading for a life of lonliness (as someone mentioned), argument, gossip etc.
Pel said "there are probably many muslims who are the same but would never admit that thats the case because they would be rejected by their friends and maybe family."
Yes, I'm sure that is quite true. It's comforting to think that but it makes me feel that perhaps I should refrain from saying openly what I really think to my friends here so that I can keep the status quo for a bit longer. In terms of my husband though I can't not say anything - I can see there is no way in this world that we will be able to live and manage together if he believes stongly in hadith and I don't (I'm not going to take many hadith laying down...I'm just not). We are going to have to meet in the middle somewhere and in order to do that I have speak about my beliefs.
Wow, this post was so timely.
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What did I do wrong? Do they hate us that much? I have been verbally abused in the mosque and banned from the one in the neighbourhood, but that has been very local, very man-to-man......this was the first time when I was faced with a national outcry to have us banned from islam.....
Feel sad, need a hugEmil I'm sorry to hear of your experience.
I'm not surprised at all though sadly. It's my experience also that believers in hadith as a rule simply cannot abide by hadith rejectors - they are SO SURE that Quran tells them to follow hadith (by saying follow the Prophet) that you can't even discuss without causing ripples, let alone argue.
I recently left a forum before I could get outed. That pretty much sealed the deal for me - it was like a final straw that made me realise I can't go on trying to believe this stuff. On the forum someone had posted (and I think I've mentioned this on here before, so excuse me for repeating myself) regarding women who leave Islam. Mostly they were talking abut converts of course. Well, I couldn't help getting involved in that - I really felt I had something to offer as I am a convert and I can understand how women might leave.
On the forum I mentioned things like the fact that before conversion you read so much about how easy it is to live as a muslim, so good and so easy. Then of course the reality is another thing altogether - you end up worrying over every little detail like which foot you enter the toilet with Also there is so much pressure because you often face problems from relatives & friends who are non-Muslim and the non-Muslim community in general. Plus in addition you have to try and fit in with your new Muslim communtiy, trying to understand what is culture, what is Islam etc.
I also mentioned to them that often when you begin to find things hard it seems that Muslims aren't supportive - they don't answer your questions, they put it all down to lack of faith, they blame it on women who convert to Islam because of marriage and say they weren't really sincere and more.
Well almost nobody responded, only a couple of people. I felt the chill immediately. But there were plenty of posts from women saying the exact things I mentioned above - that these women who leave do so because they weren't sincere, they don't have strong enough faith, they quote that passage from Quran about not being tested. I responded again to say when someone starts to have doubts and problems and maybe their practice slips that this is perhaps not the right time for them to be greeted with judgements of ''lack of faith" etc etc etc. Maybe that is the time for being helpful, tolerant, staying friends with them so they don't feel even more ostracised than they already do. Hardly anyone was interested in that though. There is a fear that doubt is so catching - the moment it comes up all the girls go running.
I left for two reasons I felt I would soon be ejected and I felt absolutely sickened by the attitudes there.
It's a jungle out there.
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"Hypocratic it is....they complain that non-muslims think they are oppressors of women, but they themselves don't know the difference between a QA and a Rashad Khalifa committer.... Feel sad, need a hug"
Well, I am sorry to say that you will not get my hug
As it seems you are not much different than those who kicked you out, since you appear to justify discrimination and hatred against people whom you call "Rashad Khalifa committer."
Second, Rashad Khalifa whom many of the Quran Alone people enjoy bashing was behind many of the ideas they come to accept.
Third, I am not a "Rashad Khalifa committer!" as you are not a "Muhammad committer." BTW, where did you find this word "committer"? hmm
Peace,
Edip -
Thank you all for your hugs, warms my heart.
I know we all have received harsh words whenever we "show" ourselves to a mainstream group. In one way I understand them because just like us, they have people joining their forums telling them that they are wrong and also using harsh words against them. I understand that they are tired of people trolling on their websites.... We can be harsh against them too peace
What saddened me was two things
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The angry words started coming when I tried to a brother who had been confronted by non-muslims. He even wrote "Please Help!!!"... I didn't try to convert him, just give advice. The brother's thread was old and nobody had bothered to answer him so I thought I would help him since nobody else did..... It seems that whenever a mainstream has problems understanding a verse, a "normal" mainstream doesnt dare help him. No, you must be a scholar or Imam to interpret verses.....the average muslim joe or jane is not allowed to express his or her opinion.....totally nuts.
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The people who seemed to be most angry were converts.......It seems everybody must respect their choice to convert to islam but they don't have that obligation to others. That really scares me.
Anyways, I checked my mailbox this morning and I had received many mails asking me to explain more about QA. These mails were of course private and not public on the forum.....All of them from born muslims and most of them from sisters......No, not because I am sooo sexy and cool, but more because they are getting fed up with being controlled and subdued by their men.
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"Hypocratic it is....they complain that non-muslims think they are oppressors of women, but they themselves don't know the difference between a QA and a Rashad Khalifa committer.... Feel sad, need a hug"
Well, I am sorry to say that you will not get my hug (
As it seems you are not much different than those who kicked you out, since you appear to justify discrimination and hatred against people whom you call "Rashad Khalifa committer."
Second, Rashad Khalifa whom many of the Quran Alone people enjoy bashing was behind many of the ideas they come to accept.
Third, I am not a "Rashad Khalifa committer!" as you are not a "Muhammad committer." BTW, where did you find this word "committer"? hmm
Peace,
EdipDear Edip
You don't need to hug me if you don't want. '(
To justify discrimination and hatred towards Rashad Khalifa committers are your words, not mine. My comparison between a muslim's complaints that non-muslims tend to see islam as oppressing women and the mainstream muslim's tendency to see QA = Rashad Kahlifa does not in any way give evidence of what or how I feel about Rashad Khalifa. I am simply pointing out the fact that they too judge without knowledge.
19 was the first I stumbled on when searching for an alternative to mainstream. I thought "Wow!", this is great stuff! But then I started to get a little uneasy when I read about taking out verses from the Quran and that mr.Khalifa's translation of the Quran was not entirely correct.....That made me search further and found you, Edip and the likes of you. And not forgetting dr Shabbir either.
You want my opinion of Rashad Khalifa? Fine, I think he was very important to the progressive muslim, I see him as a martyr. Do I like deleting verses and using mathematics to justify and verify Allah's word? NO.
I don't "bash" 19....I got nothing against them, on the contrary, I see them as us, not them......but it must be said, a QA like me will not use 19 to understand the Quran.
As almost all of us here have a second language, sometimes words have different meanings. In my language, a "follower" implies that you are a sheep, not having a real opinion. You cannot even use that word when describing somebody's religious beliefs, it is more used to describe a hooligan or a member of a fascist/nazi party. Sorry for the confusion, I realize now that the word committer doesnt even exist in english, or does it?
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Anyways, I checked my mailbox this morning and I had received many mails asking me to explain more about QA. These mails were of course private and not public on the forum.....All of them from born muslims and most of them from sisters......No, not because I am sooo sexy and cool, but more because they are getting fed up with being controlled and subdued by their men.
Well, this is an exciting development, isn't it?
It's easy to forget that internet message boards aren't like real life meetings. I guess the real impact of many discussions isn't so much about changing the position of the person you are debating, but rather what goes on in the minds of the lurkers. -
Dear Brothers and Sisters
Today I joined a swedish muslim forum in hope that I would be able to maybe straighten some distorted views what Quran Alone is all about. I introduced myself and said that I was a "Koranist" and if anyone wanted to ask me about the religious belief of someone such as me I would be there and answer any question. I stressed the point that there IS a difference between 19 (Rashad Khalifa committer) and AQ..
Then I went on and answered a question asked by a mainstream muslim brother who needed help. Somebody had challenged him by saying "If the Quran is error-free, then how come Surah 675 and 376-8 is not scientifically correct???
675 And We have adorned the lower heaven with lamps, and We made it with projectiles against the devils; and We prepared for them the retribution of the blazing Fire.
37 6-8 We have adorned the lower heaven with the decoration of planets.
And to guard against every rebellious devil.
They cannot listen to the command up high; and they are bombarded from every side.I answered him that perhaps these verses were not "scientific" but written in an allegorical way. Just because the Quran mentions something "scientific" it doesnt mean it has to be "scientific". I mean, Muhammed Ali's right hook was "faster than lightning" doesn't REALLY mean that it was actually faster than lightning..... I referred him to 37, where in the Swedish version of the Quran, the word "similar" is intepreted as "figurately speaking".
He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are firm revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are similar. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say We believe in it, all is from our Lord. And none will remember except those who possess intelligence.
I gave him "ammo" to defend his belief against those who questioned it...........
After a few hours I checked the forum......And Oh My God!!! There was an general outcry to ban me from the forum and in the future not to allow anybody who could be stamped as a Rashad Khalifa follower, a 19, a quraninyoon, submitter......The moderator stepped in and said "look, this guy has not done anything wrong but I will help you to form a policy so we can get rid of this "sect" from the forum".
What did I do wrong? Do they hate us that much? I have been verbally abused in the mosque and banned from the one in the neighbourhood, but that has been very local, very man-to-man......this was the first time when I was faced with a national outcry to have us banned from islam.....
Hypocratic it is....they complain that non-muslims think they are oppressors of women, but they themselves don't know the difference between a QA and a Rashad Khalifa committer....
Feel sad, need a hug
Peace,
Respect.Welcome to the club, brother.
group handshake
Same here, same here.
I was banned from the sunni forum, from two mosques and wahabis keep threatning me and saying it is dangerous to ditch sunnah and hadeeth.
They simply cannot and will not abandon the books for qwhich they believe are the words of the prophet/messenger Mohammad and nothing and no one will ever convince them otherwise. God knows best.You might have made a mistake when you immediately said who you are, when you said you are a Quranist, which in their eyes was a threat and also an opposition, becuase they see people who abandon sunnah and hadeeth as enemies of the prophet. Just like 19ers see me as an enemy for abandoning the appendix and RK. My fiancee dumped me for not accepting RK and same thing is happening with sunnis. They see the sunnah and hadeeth as The Qur'an and in some cases even bigger and holier.
All I can tell you is this. You are brave and very courages for this scene and God bless you for being honest and sincere with them. Keep up the good job, brother. However, if you want, now try a different approach. Introduce yourself as a muslim and just go with the flow, go with them and talk. When someone/anyone asks a question, you answer best to your knowledge and according to The Qur'an.
For example when someone asks if it is true that thieves must have their hands cut off, answer what Qur'an says.
I did the same on another forum and I believe that non-muslims there who keep attacking Islam, Qur'an and muslims see the difference, God willing and will react sometime in the future, God knows best.On this forum > http//www.topix.com/forum/religion/islam
I have made several friends and also The Best Friend, Thank God.My Message to you, brother > Be Yourself. jedi
group handshake
God bless you and stay cool.
Peace.