Usual arguments statements re hadith disbelief
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Salaam all peace
I'm wondering whether the following are quite usual statements to hear from those you love when they find out you don't believe in hadith?
"You just don't understand the science of hadith"
"You just don't understand abrogation"
"You just need to read more"
"You just need to read the correct books/websites"
"You just don't have enough knowledge"
Could it be true? Is it possible I don't know enough and that is why I am fooled into not believing hadith?? D I don't think so, but anything is possible I suppose.
So, what else can I expect to hear? Any tips on how to get through? I've only told 2 Muslims so far and from both I've heard these same statements.
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salam
i've heard the 4th one a lot hehe
even when you use their hadith to make a point, and find some inaccuracies or contradictions, their final response is well you need to check the chain of narration... and that's where it end... i was like, umm i'm still waiting for an explanation, but they don't give it, they have no explanation... and i've used their books, sahih bukhari...Could it be true? Is it possible I don't know enough and that is why I am fooled into not believing hadith?? D I don't think so, but anything is possible I suppose.
i think it's the opposite, following hadith is not knowing enough...
it's why most people left (all)religion in the first place...
look at all the scientific development, all the inventions... how many hadith followers helped invent all that...
they are mostly preoccupied with imitating some guy then listening to the message he brought.So, what else can I expect to hear? Any tips on how to get through? I've only told 2 Muslims so far and from both I've heard these same statements.
umm, i bet next time you say to one of them you don't follow hadith... 100% they will say 'how do you pray' ;D
how to get through? hmm, using reasoning and quran usually works... but they won't listen...
if they find out you don't follow hadith, they start to talk AT you, they don't listen to anything you say...
important thing is to not get emotional, to stay calm and think and use reasoning with them... even if they dismiss you, at least they hear it, it's in their minds, eventually reasoning prevails... -
Peace,
Respect.You're also gonna hear this
"Do you understand Arabic?"
"Have you studied tafseer?"
"Have yous tudied hadeeth?"
"You must understand the chain of the hadeeth."I have told few dosen sunnis here that I reject sunnah and hadeeth and two large communities in Leicester during my stay there which lasted around 14 months. God knows best.
There are several verses in The Qur'an that you can show them. On submission.org, I first saw this, which attracted me to enhance my belief even more
http//www.submission.org/dozen.html
7185, 316, 3923, 456, 5234, 6844, 7750. These verses have the word hadeeth in them, so see how the word hadeeth is used, in what context. 3923 is Terminator against sahih hadeeth by all those men who narrated. Also 316 goes along and others follow perfectly, Glory be to God.
4144 And had We made it a non-Arabic Qur'an, they would have said If only its revelations were made clear! Non-Arabic and Arabic, say For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away.
4144 is Clear. Whatever the language, those who believe, will believe, God willing.
God knows best.6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?
6839 Or do you have an oath from Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that you can judge as you please?
6840 Ask them Who of them will make such a claim?
6841 Or do they have partners? Then let them bring their partners, if they are truthful.6940 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.They will tell you the strongest verse from their point of view
597 Whatever God bestowed upon His messenger from the people of the towns, then it shall be to God and His messenger, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the poor, and the wayfarer. Thus, it will not remain monopolized by the rich among you. And you may take what the messenger gives you, but do not take what he prohibits you from taking. And be aware of God, for God is mighty in retribution.
This is the point when you use what I quote from from suras 68 and 69. The messenger is apparently allowed to only teach The Message and nothing else, because if he said some other teachings, other then The Qur'an, he would have been killed by the very God Who sent him.
Compare prophet/messenger Muhammad from hadeeth Bukhary and from The Qur'an. Difference is Clear.
God bless you.
Peace be upon you. -
"You just don't understand the science of hadith"
The "science of hadith" can be summed up as an arbitrary imperfect system they were forced to come up with trying to sort out a mix of truth and falsehood. No "scholar" claims its perfect, its as good as they could get it at the time. A nice book is Jonathan Brown's book, he is a Muslim, but is objective
http//www.amazon.com/Hadith-Introduction-Jonathan-C-Brown/dp/1851686630/"You just don't understand abrogation"
There is no consensus amongst "scholars" on abrogation. Some dont even think it exists. Just ask them "how many verses are abrogated?" and watch them squirm.
"You just need to read more"
Funny, since vast majority of Muslims have not read The Quran in a language they understand, let alone studied it.
"You just need to read the correct books/websites"
So instead of "science of hadith" we can have "science of websites"? People tend to read books that agree with their views. Perhaps that's why they dont read The Quran.
"You just don't have enough knowledge"
All you need is 14mins to study each hadith. That's what Bukhari did. See the impossible mathematics of Bukhari here
You are right, according to traditional sources, he took 16 years to gather the ahadith and write them.
You as well as I know that he reportedly collected about 600 000 hadiths! See any site, for example, this one
http//www.uga.edu/islam/hadith.htmlDo the math!!
16 years = 8409600 minutes
This means even if you dont take any time out for eating, sleeping, toilet, praying, travelling etc, that leaves 14 minutes to listen to, record and check the authenticity of each hadith!
I repeat 14 minutes per hadith !!!!!!!!!!!!
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Salaam Alen.
Thanks for your reply. I was very excited about presenting some of the ayat you mentioned to a friend of mine and now I just want to let you, everyone really, how it went.
I pointed them to 7185, 316, 3923, 456, 5234, 6844, 7750 and the answer according to them is in the Arabic. The word hadith doesn't refer to hadith in those instances. It means something else like message, book, advertisement etc. I was told that in Quran ''hikma'' refers to the prophets hadith, not hadith. I was told that for anyone who understand Arabic well that they would understand this (i.e. I can't because I don't know Arabic).
It's like I come up against a brick wall.
Even if you translate those passages differently with book, message or the like it still seems to point to Quran and NOT hadith.
But it's like people won't even consider it. It is aggravating because I considered their way...for years I tried.
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"You just don't understand the science of hadith"
The "science of hadith" can be summed up as an arbitrary imperfect system they were forced to come up with trying to sort out a mix of truth and falsehood. No "scholar" claims its perfect, its as good as they could get it at the time. A nice book is Jonathan Brown's book, he is a Muslim, but is objective
http//www.amazon.com/Hadith-Introduction-Jonathan-C-Brown/dp/1851686630/"You just don't understand abrogation"
There is no consensus amongst "scholars" on abrogation. Some dont even think it exists. Just ask them "how many verses are abrogated?" and watch them squirm.
"You just need to read more"
Funny, since vast majority of Muslims have not read The Quran in a language they understand, let alone studied it.
"You just need to read the correct books/websites"
So instead of "science of hadith" we can have "science of websites"? People tend to read books that agree with their views. Perhaps that's why they dont read The Quran.
"You just don't have enough knowledge"
All you need is 14mins to study each hadith. That's what Bukhari did. See the impossible mathematics of Bukhari here
You are so right about the science of hadith. What's more in the last couple of days I've had to explain that all science is not 100% correct. Science is a process - we find proof of something and we believe that for a while. Then after some time we find out something new which changes our ideas completely. Where is the 100% correct science that some want to believe in?
So knowing this, I'm supposed to suspend my judgement totally when it comes to this hadith science that hadith believers keep banging on about. yeah
Wakas I loved the idea of looking mathematically at Bukhari and his hadith collecting. I ran aground when I tried to use it though because I was told that 16 years is how long it took Bukhari to write his book of authentic hadith, but that he collected the others over a greater length of time. '(
Lol re ''science of websites'' rotfl Yes and "science of scholars who write books about hadith" ... since I must be reading the wrong books - obviously or I wouldn't dare to question hadith.
I feel as though there is little way out with those who are in love with hadith, though I know that isn't true for everyone. I just feel brickwall sometimes.
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Salaam Alen.
Thanks for your reply. I was very excited about presenting some of the ayat you mentioned to a friend of mine and now I just want to let you, everyone really, how it went.I pointed them to 7185, 316, 3923, 456, 5234, 6844, 7750 and the answer according to them is in the Arabic. The word hadith doesn't refer to hadith in those instances. It means something else like message, book, advertisement etc. I was told that in Quran ''hikma'' refers to the prophets hadith, not hadith. I was told that for anyone who understand Arabic well that they would understand this (i.e. I can't because I don't know Arabic).
It's like I come up against a brick wall.
Even if you translate those passages differently with book, message or the like it still seems to point to Quran and NOT hadith.
But it's like people won't even consider it. It is aggravating because I considered their way...for years I tried.
Peace,
Respect.Excellent.
Now you got them.
See, they have used their own opinion, Glory be to God, The Truth shall prevail, Thank God.
They have expressed their own thoughts and opinions, they have the right but what they should do, is read more Qur'an and ponder even more.They have told me the same. They immediately say that hadeeth means narration but it doesn't mean those sahih hadeeth by those men. Okay, where does that say in The Qur'an? This is good, you can now ask them where in The Qur'an does God The MOST Wise say that sahih hadeeth by Bukhary and Muslim & co., are the part of The Qur'an?
Of course, they will use now famous
597 Whatever God bestowed upon His messenger from the people of the towns, then it shall be to God and His messenger, and the relatives, and the orphans, and the poor, and the wayfarer. Thus, it will not remain monopolized by the rich among you. And you may take what the messenger gives you, but do not take what he prohibits you from taking. And be aware of God, for God is mighty in retribution.
Messenger can only give The Message and therefore what I quoted there from sura 69 works perfectly against them.
If rasool said any other teachings, other then The Qur'an, clearly, he'd be killed.
God is very direct and specific there when He Himself says He would stop Muhammad's life-line, yes?Wateen is the life line, throughout the body. Wrist, neck, ....
Hikmah is next. Perfect.
Wisdom. Qur'an is The Wisdom, isn't it?101 ALR, these are the signs of the Book of wisdom.
1739 That is from what your Lord has inspired to you of the wisdom. And do not make with God another god, or you will be cast into Hell, blameworthy and regretting.
312 These are the signs of the Book of wisdom.
362 And the Qur'an of wisdom.
444 In it, is a decree for every matter of wisdom. (read from the beginningkof sura.)
545 A perfect wisdom; but the warnings are of no benefit. (read from the beginning of sura.)Check this out
2530 And the messenger said My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur'an.
It is interesting to note that our Creator speaks here what the rasool will say in the future but the MOST interesting part is what the rasool says. Rasool will complain to Allah SWT that people have deserted this Qur'an.Prophet/messenger Muhammad does not compalin about desertion of sunnah and hadeeth and there are muslims who do not follow sunnah and hadeeth, yes?
Us.
So, why doesn't he complain to God about desertion of sunnah and hadeeth? Afterall, there are more people on Earth who follow sunnah and hadeeth - 1.5 billion sunnis, God knows best - then us who follow ONLY The Qur'an, right?
May God bless you and keep up the prayers.
Read The Qur'an and make sure you got more verses to "fight" them.
Patience is very important now and here.Brotherly advice
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.Peace.
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Wakas I loved the idea of looking mathematically at Bukhari and his hadith collecting. I ran aground when I tried to use it though because I was told that 16 years is how long it took Bukhari to write his book of authentic hadith, but that he collected the others over a greater length of time.
That is a common claim. Simply ask for a reference, and ask is this what is agreed upon?
When discussing with people, it is often helpful to narrow it down and stick to a few points first, see where that goes.
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...
Check this out
2530 And the messenger said My Lord, my people have deserted this Qur'an.
It is interesting to note that our Creator speaks here what the rasool will say in the future but the MOST interesting part is what the rasool says. Rasool will complain to Allah SWT that people have deserted this Qur'an.Prophet/messenger Muhammad does not compalin about desertion of sunnah and hadeeth and there are muslims who do not follow sunnah and hadeeth, yes?
Us. ...
Brotherly advice
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.Peace.
Salaam Alen. From what you've written I can see it's a good idea to press onwards. I felt a bit despondent today but I am probably a bit impatient and I need to be sure that I am gentle and patient in the way I approach it.
wow ayah 2530 is very interesting and your argument bravo
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That is a common claim. Simply ask for a reference, and ask is this what is agreed upon?
When discussing with people, it is often helpful to narrow it down and stick to a few points first, see where that goes.Salaam Wakas. Of course! I think that practice is needed as well as patience, lol. I'm sure I will get better at all this stuff with time (and naturally as my knowledge increases too). Yep, I need to ask for a reference yes
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I was told that in Quran ''hikma'' refers to the prophets hadith, not hadith.
rana, we had a lengthy discussion about the meaning of hikma on here not too long ago, unfortunately I don't remember the name of the thread, only that it was started by The Reformer.
Fact is, the word hikma appears in the Qur'an many times, and there are various instances where it can NOT be translated as sunnah / hadith.
As for the rest of your post ? do not get frustrated about the argument that supposedly you misunderstand everything because you don't speak Arabic. That's nonsense, there is no consensus among native Arabic speakers about the meaning and interpretation of many words in the Qur'an. Also, it is a favourite argument of Sunnis that only people who don't know Arabic or Orientalists reject hadith. But this is simply not true, as you can see if you do a bit of research on the subject.
edit This is the thread about hikma / sunnah>
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600457.0 -
rana, we had a lengthy discussion about the meaning of hikma on here not too long ago, unfortunately I don't remember the name of the thread, only that it was started by The Reformer.
The highlighting above is from me.
Salaan,
The Qur?aan, The Forqaan, The Hadith, The Hikmah, The Kitaab, are all one and the same parts of one another. These terms are all confined within The Qur?aan itself. For example, the term Hikmah comes from the THREE-LETTER root word HA-KA-MA meaning ARBITRATION. In other words, meaning to render judgment according to the LAWS and COMMANDMENTS within The Qur?aan. So, when ALLAAH SWT Speaks of HIKMAH anywhere in The Qur?aan, He means the implementation of His laws and His commandments and the way they should be implemented. The point is that All the arbitrations MUST be according to word of GOD Almighty, whether in The Qur?aan, The Torah, and or The Injeel, but NOT any man-made source. See 544,45,47 out of numerous verses in which the derivatives and variations of this term i.e. HA-KA- MA, is used.
Peace,
Khalil
