What is the source of Evil?
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@far to say the shia made a sect as in your signature is a bit arrogant of you. sunnis made a sect too. its all a bunch of sects in the end. the hope is by sticking to the quran alone, we can be united.
and iblis was a jinn not an angel.
as to the original poster, there are many good writings on theodicy. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy check here for a basic understanding of the concept and the issues. fine tune your question and ask again.
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@far to say the shia made a sect as in your signature is a bit arrogant of you. sunnis made a sect too. its all a bunch of sects in the end. the hope is by sticking to the quran alone, we can be united.
and iblis was a jinn not an angel.
as to the original poster, there are many good writings on theodicy. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy check here for a basic understanding of the concept and the issues. fine tune your question and ask again.
Annoying? The term shia means sect.
Iblis was like an angel... he was obedient. Like, not an angel. In heaven you obey allah otherwise get kicked out.
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Salaam,
One of the attributes and names of God, is al-Rauf, which means the source of goodness, in the Gospel Jesus refutes being called a good teacher, and says for only God is good, I must be careful I cannot say anything without it being verifiable. There is a logical sequence in this, but the main themes of cinema and literature portray evil as being real, in order to instill fear in people, with the continuous barrage of this idea that evil is real, it becomes hard to not become schizophrenic or paranoid. With continued emphasis on what causes evil among people, hatred, lust, greed, envy, malice and pride, if we attempt to kill the ego, then submit to God, we realise God is Most Gracious, Most Merciful. I went to a 'wake', like a gathering for one of my uncles who died, and it is common for people to express condolences and to say 'Allah ni marzee', which means it is God's will.
Since 9-11 there has been a continuous propagation that evil is real, with the bombings blamed upon suicide bombers, but showing plain evil, for example the bombings at a Shrine in Pakistan, if you think 'evil', then you are more likely to accept the illuminati being behind such attacks than mad Muhammadans, then if we look at the decline of insects such as bees, there maybe foul play involved in this too, they may be trying to destroy life before the end of time, then with the genetically engineered swine flu, trying to cull the world's population. But they are covert, secretive, and conspirators, and there spirit resides in all their minions, from police, to psychiatrist, to governments, they are servants of the illuminati, even many academia, never once in the whole 4 years at Durham during 98-02 did I hear anything about the illuminati, they simply do not teach it, nor anything about the mathematical discovery and miracle of the code of the Quran, even though I was studying history and politics of the Middle East with Arabic, even the academia, they profess arrested development, but I prefer to keep the faith.
To God belongs the most beautiful names, and cannot be the source of evil, the cause of evil in people, can be due to one of these things, greed, hatred, malice, pride, envy and lust. There are many working examples of these catergories, greed, if we look to the destruction of the planet by trading in fractional deposits, where money and wealth are being created when there is nothing of worth in deposit, instead of looking below we keep trying to reach an illusive point above, instead of charity there is usury. If we look at lust, how having many sexual partners can be detrimental to ones health, that sex should be between man and wife, not with whoever if you look to AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases, it is clear we are designed like pigeons to have one marriage partner, but see the effects of sexualisation on family, on women, and men and children. It is a great evil, lust.
If we kill our egos and submit to God, because God is Most Gracious and Most Merciful which we realise due to our salats and having reached certainty, we pray like the mother of Mary, when Mary was born, 'I invoke the protection for her and her descendants from the rejected Devil.'
As for the example of knives, in the words of Sting, 'never saw no miracle of science that didn't go from a blessing to a curse'.
A simple allegory, which my mum used to tell me, the more sugar you put in your tea the more sweeter it will be. Holding on to your mind, and not giving any clues as to your true self, then one day like a rose you will bud open, and the beauty will be for all to see. The clocks are moving faster and slower, it could take forever it could take a minute, for multitudes of life forms to exist on this planet. Just flow, try not retain, even if you do, sooner or later it will be carried away with the continuous stream.
Peace
A Submitter
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As far a I know God created everything as wel as evil. I would say that God created evil in order to test us and since God himself is Good he has warned us of the consequences through his prophets.
In the Kooran hell is mentioned aproximately 200 times so none can say that he didn't give a fair warning about the consequences.
God does what he wils and what he wils must be perfect justice since his knowledge and power are infinite. An infinetly wise being would not make unjust decisions.
Peace
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As far a I know God created everything as wel as evil. I would say that God created evil in order to test us and since God himself is Good he has warned us of the consequences through his prophets.
In the Kooran hell is mentioned aproximately 200 times so none can say that he didn't give a fair warning about the consequences.
God does what he wils and what he wils must be perfect justice since his knowledge and power are infinite. An infinetly wise being would not make unjust decisions.
Peace
hmm, i agree... since God created everything, universe, planets, us, souls, dreams, other worlds, and all that is still unknown, why wouldn't He create evil, then who did? where did evil come from?
just a while ago i was thinking of 'why', why everything, why would God create anything, why create heaven and hell, why create galaxies, why create planets, why create humans like this, ... why... why create beings then reward them or punish them, why create good and evil in this world, why create the satan and let him loose in this world, why not stop him, why not remove evil people and start fresh, why not create another miracle and feed millions of starving people in the world...???????i guess He has a reason, from observing this world, i guess evil was made to be on this world, as a test like you said, or obstacle to be overcome )
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Another thing I thought of is that in order to have free will you have to create an ability to disobey. I supose if you can disobey but you don't than that is true obedience. In case of us humans we have free will and plus there is satan trying to lead us astray. So when you consider all that is trying to lead us astray resisting it and obeying God is something worth the reward.
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in my psychology lectures we were told abt an experiment carried out a couple of years back inwhich a 100 ppl took part. the design was such tht two ppl took part in the experiment at a time. one was the subject and the other guy was an accomplice of the experimenter. the aim ws to test how far wud ppl go to obey someone in authority. the design was that one person wud be the teacher and the other the learner (of a list of words). the selection of the teacher/learner ws rigged so that the subject always became the teacher. every time the learner got a wrong answer the teacher had to shock him, and increase the shock levels after every wrong answer. the range of the shocks was frm abt 20 volts to xxx (above 450 volts). the teacher was informed by the learner that he had heart problems etc and that shud be kept in mind while giving teh shocks.
our class was asked howmany ppl wud go all the way to xxx...i think evryone said not more than 1 or 2 out of the 100 ppl.
it was a shock when the results showed that more than 60% of the people in the experiment went till xxx. they did show signs of distress when the learner was howling, but continued when the experimenter said "u have to continue" and "i take full responsibility of the consequences".the purpose i wanted to tellu abt this is that this really shocked me. knowing that majority of us have the potential to harm someone else seriously, if pushed into it. it was not only the sadistic ppl who went till the xxx mark but also regular ppl like u and me. it made me think how good are we at the end of the day.. why did God think man was good enough to have the angels submit to him? why defend man when the angels are asking Him abt the wisdom of sending man to the earth? id like to believe that humans are good, but the more i delve into the psychology of man, the more i realise how much sin we do evryday in our lives. were we meant to be like this? its our nature to make mistakes and do wrong. very few ppl have the strength to control sin..we may not indulge in killing etc, but we do lie and deceive and hurt others.
why are we like this, if we are a race about whom God said "i know wat you do not" i hv yet to find a reason for God putting so much faith into us when we have caused corruption in this land, as teh angels said we would.
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in my psychology lectures we were told abt an experiment carried out a couple of years back inwhich a 100 ppl took part. the design was such tht two ppl took part in the experiment at a time. one was the subject and the other guy was an accomplice of the experimenter. the aim ws to test how far wud ppl go to obey someone in authority. the design was that one person wud be the teacher and the other the learner (of a list of words). the selection of the teacher/learner ws rigged so that the subject always became the teacher. every time the learner got a wrong answer the teacher had to shock him, and increase the shock levels after every wrong answer. the range of the shocks was frm abt 20 volts to xxx (above 450 volts). the teacher was informed by the learner that he had heart problems etc and that shud be kept in mind while giving teh shocks.
our class was asked howmany ppl wud go all the way to xxx...i think evryone said not more than 1 or 2 out of the 100 ppl.
it was a shock when the results showed that more than 60% of the people in the experiment went till xxx. they did show signs of distress when the learner was howling, but continued when the experimenter said "u have to continue" and "i take full responsibility of the consequences".the purpose i wanted to tellu abt this is that this really shocked me. knowing that majority of us have the potential to harm someone else seriously, if pushed into it. it was not only the sadistic ppl who went till the xxx mark but also regular ppl like u and me. it made me think how good are we at the end of the day.. why did God think man was good enough to have the angels submit to him? why defend man when the angels are asking Him abt the wisdom of sending man to the earth? id like to believe that humans are good, but the more i delve into the psychology of man, the more i realise how much sin we do evryday in our lives. were we meant to be like this? its our nature to make mistakes and do wrong. very few ppl have the strength to control sin..we may not indulge in killing etc, but we do lie and deceive and hurt others.
why are we like this, if we are a race about whom God said "i know wat you do not" i hv yet to find a reason for God putting so much faith into us when we have caused corruption in this land, as teh angels said we would.
If I were you, I would rather question the test.
Have a look at the criticisms of the Milgram experiment
in the quran, we are told to keep away from falsehood.
http//corpus.quran.com/search.jsp?t=1&q=falsehood
Also, ignore psychology... it's a dud subject. You will not learn anything but a failure upon humanity.
http//www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/article1131784.ece
Why psychology has got it wrong
Psychoanalysis was one of the "backbone" sciences of the 20th century, yet depression and behavioural problems are rife today. In the first of two articles, our correspondent explains why psychology has failedYou may wish to refer to something that Wakas of Free-minds likes to reference in regarding to proper scientific methods
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/religion-science-reason-compatible.htm
You may also wish to refer to this lecture
http//www.youtube.com/user/faro0485?feature=mhum#p/f/29/IhptKiANDeo -
My understanding is that there is no such thing as evil in Islam.
Muslim Apologist from England
http//hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/2009/09/philosophical-theological-response-to.htmlMy understanding and summary of his view is, "What problem?". He doesn't believe in evil.
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I have always found it strange that unmitigated 'evil' exists in the world of a just creator.
On an intellectual level it has never made sense.
On a practical and spiritual level it absolutley makes no sense.
I dont think there is any 'natural' moral order to the world except those which man makes,or those which he is inclined to.I will ask the ultimate question posed by ivan to his brother alyosha, 'If you were the potential creator of the world and you could create the perfect world for humanity but to do this you needed to make one poor child suffer,would you do it?'
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I will ask the ultimate question posed by ivan to his brother alyosha, 'If you were the potential creator of the world and you could create the perfect world for humanity but to do this you needed to make one poor child suffer,would you do it?'
But have you considered the ultimate reply?
'How would you prevent suffering and still allow free will?"
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I will ask the ultimate question posed by ivan to his brother alyosha, 'If you were the potential creator of the world and you could create the perfect world for humanity but to do this you needed to make one poor child suffer,would you do it?'
Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.
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peace,
The Quran itself talks a lot about this. From my studies, I will give you my understanding
Think of it like this if a company produces cooking knives, and some people use these knives for their intended purpose cutting meat, chopping vegetables etc (i.e. good) and some people use the knives for stabbing/killing others (i.e. bad), would it be fair to say the company created the evil/bad?
God gave us free-choice, and showed us the two paths good and bad. It is up to us which we choose.
The story of adam/mankind in The Quran is a parable. Perhaps its most central/thematic. The following book discusses it in more detail, it is from the same author as the Quran translation I mentioned. Some background posts
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597379.msg185295#msg185295
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12703.msg102151#msg102151Once you have read the above, I strongly recommend re-reading the story of "Adam" in The Quran with this in mind. I would be interested to hear your thoughts. I personally found understanding this story one of the most important in my overall understanding of The Quran. )
From the topics index at www.studyquran.org
While I'd normally agree with this argument, here's a possible flaw
The company making the knives is bound by physical laws. For example, something that is sharp and can cut eggs can also cut through human skin.But God himself is not bound by any laws. Usually in our world to gain something you have to lose something orjust deal with side effects, but why can't God create something without any downsides or possible risks, without any possible risks?
So maybe evil isn't just a side effect of our free-will (do we even have free-will is another question), but rather something purposely built into our design?
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While I'd normally agree with this argument, here's a possible flaw
The company making the knives is bound by physical laws. For example, something that is sharp and can cut eggs can also cut through human skin.But God himself is not bound by any laws. Usually in our world to gain something you have to lose something orjust deal with side effects, but why can't God create something without any downsides or possible risks, without any possible risks?
So maybe evil isn't just a side effect of our free-will (do we even have free-will is another question), but rather something purposely built into our design?
Dichotomies are inherent in physical existence. God is omnipotent, but only insofar as He can create logically coherent propositions.
God cannot create square circles, or married bachelors, for these are nonsensical concepts.
Similarly, "good" is nonsensical without "evil."
It is no different than many other adjectives we are used to. We cannot say "front" without implying the existence of a "back." The two are intertwined, and necessitate each others' existence.
Or to think about it in terms of physical laws, think of space and solid. The two concepts imply each other. The idea of a solid object cannot exist unless there is a space in which the solid is pressed against.
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I don't think I agree. It's completely possible to have good without evil because there are people in this world, millions in fact, that can't even consider committing an evil act.
Let's say some people in this world, due to a combination of genetics and conditioning, become immune to evil. Why couldn't God just make everyone like that from the start? We still have the possibility of evil, but everyone would be so averse to it that it wouldn't actually exist.
Whether we'd recognize good behavior as good then is an entirely different matter. Maybe in that world the concepts of good and evil wouldn't exist, but the behavior of people would still be "good."
What do you think. -
I don't think I agree. It's completely possible to have good without evil because there are people in this world, millions in fact, that can't even consider committing an evil act.
Let's say some people in this world, due to a combination of genetics and conditioning, become immune to evil. Why couldn't God just make everyone like that from the start? We still have the possibility of evil, but everyone would be so averse to it that it wouldn't actually exist.
Whether we'd recognize good behavior as good then is an entirely different matter. Maybe in that world the concepts of good and evil wouldn't exist, but the behavior of people would still be "good."
What do you think.Millions of people that can't even consider committing an evil act? I think it's quite naive to think this way.
And at any rate, that's missing the point. I'm saying goodness implies evilness.
The two are interrelated concepts, like back/front. One presupposes the existence of the other, logically.
Now, saying things like "to become immune to evil" is a different discussion altogether, for you are now admitting that evil exists, since the person in your hypothetical has become immune to it. You can't be immune to something that doesn't exist after all, right? And that's the point I was making.
On that topic, though, I'm not sure how one can become 'immune to evil.'
You are right, I suppose, in that God could have chosen to create automatons in a universe without good or evil. That's logically possible, though it seems rather pointless?
But, you are trying to make the point that God could have chosen to create a universe that contains good but does not contain evil. And that's where I disagree. Because the two concepts necessitate each other.
It's like asking God to create a square circle. It is completely nonsensical, a logical impossibility.
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peace Lobster,
Long time no see )
While I'd normally agree with this argument, here's a possible flaw
The company making the knives is bound by physical laws. For example, something that is sharp and can cut eggs can also cut through human skin.But God himself is not bound by any laws. Usually in our world to gain something you have to lose something orjust deal with side effects, but why can't God create something without any downsides or possible risks, without any possible risks?
Can you tell us how it is possible to allow a sharp enough knife to cut meat/vegetables but not able to cut or kill another human being?
Or if you say the knife is sharp enough to do both but humans would simply not do it, i.e. we do no evil.
Such a human would have no free-choice, or at least, I cannot think how this would work without erasing free-choice, or how a test to distinguish people would work in such an environment.
As soon as you eliminate free-choice, you eliminate the test.
I recall watching the film "Bruce Almighty" and Jim Carrey remarked "how can i make her love me without affecting free-choice?" and God said "welcome to my world". ;D
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Caveman doctor, I don't think it's naive. I consider myself to be someone who is generally good, and so are most other people I know. We may slip up from time to time but we would not commit all out "evil" acts. But anyway, let's say God created humans that were genetically so predisposed to doing good that they never did evil. Let's call them "the people of the good."
The possibility of capability of something existing doesn't mean it exists. So if these people of the good never committed evil then evil wouldn't exist.But obviously that would be pointless. So I guess the hidden premise here is that there has to be a point?
Wakas, peace to you too. I have missed you guys.
If, let's say, humans were made of diamond, but ate vegetables to survive. You could certainly make knives that would be completely harmless to us.
But anyway, that's irrelevant.So our existence has to have a point, we have to have free-will. So you (and Caveman) would say that God created this life as a test, and that's why evil exists, because its the byproduct of our free-will. Fair enough point.
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"how can i make her love me without affecting free-choice?" and God said "welcome to my world".
Like that one too! It might sound very simple to many but the consequence is at least as great as the universe.
In response to Lobster's point on "people of the good who never committed evil", I can't but think that no matter how advanced some human beings could be, they will still have to face the option of "progress" and congress "no progress" (which would lead to "regress". And even if they would never touch evil, someone else (less advanced) will.
Tell me someone you call "good" that doesn't like to help. Now let's say that, the people of the earth have all become "good", that even the least good ones behave like Jesus did. What would be the next logical step for their progress? Yes, they would have started to explore the universe to find other "human beings" to help!
Back to our current reality, even if what you say were true, that millions of people are good etc (well i'd love to believe that we have --at least the potential of-- billions, but only God knows), these people would still have to face the choice of progress/non-progress. And a famous quote fits the theme only too well "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
