Does God know whole of the future of the individual
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peace Imraan,
Knowing what decision a person will make does not mean one forced that person to make that decision, just means they know that person really well. There is no accountability when one is forced. We have free-choice, we are not forced to do anything.
I do not think 6101 implies that. It seems to be a rhetorical question and makes the audience think, e.g. either they accept the argument and say "yeh God does not have a mate he cant have a child" or they say "God does not need a mate to have a child, God is all-powerful" but if they accept the latter then an all-powerful being has no need of a child either.
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Peace Wakas
Wakas wrote
peace Imraan,
Knowing what decision a person will make does not mean one forced that person to make that decision, just means they know that person really well. There is no accountability when one is forced. We have free-choice, we are not forced to do anything.
I do not think 6101 implies that. It seems to be a rhetorical question and makes the audience think, e.g. either they accept the argument and say "yeh God does not have a mate he cant have a child" or they say "God does not need a mate to have a child, God is all-powerful" but if they accept the latter then an all-powerful being has no need of a child either.
I don't think that one can say that because I know someone really well, I know what decision they will make. One can, however make an educated guess as to what decision they will make. Knowing with certainty what anyone will do means that they will do that. One may not have forced them to to do it, but if it is certain that they will do it, it is a foregone conclusion. This would mean that they cannot decide differently from this foregone conclusion. This equates to forcing such a person to do something by virtue of the very fact that they cannot deviate from such a foregone conclusion.
For me, 6101 is not rhetorical. God's choice to limit His intervention in our lives through any kind of miraculous act is not asserting that God is limited. If I can run faster than my 6 year old son, but choose to let him win the race; it does not follow that I am incapable of winning the race, just that I choose to give him the pleasure of winning the race.
For me, God placing such limitations upon Himself is proof of an All Powerful God. Such a God has no need to assert His capabilities to act miraculously in order to bring about an effect that had no cause within the human sphere. The consistency provided in our lives by the absence of miraculous intervention allows for proper results / effects to follow the initiating cause. It is for this reason that we can evaluate the truth of the message in that when we act according to the laws set out by God, using the guidance sent down through revelation, the results will be consistent.
That's my take on it anyway. There may be verses that I haven't come to grips with yet, but I cannot find it within myself to accept such things as miraculous. I or we, may just not understand how the laws governing these work yet.
Imraan
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peace Imraan,
I don't think that one can say that because I know someone really well, I know what decision they will make. One can, however make an educated guess as to what decision they will make. Knowing with certainty what anyone will do means that they will do that. One may not have forced them to to do it, but if it is certain that they will do it, it is a foregone conclusion. This would mean that they cannot decide differently from this foregone conclusion. This equates to forcing such a person to do something by virtue of the very fact that they cannot deviate from such a foregone conclusion.
Parts in bold are contradictory.
However, you are right when you say to us it may be an 'educated guess', but to an all-knowing entity who has all the information, it would not be a guess.Also, you discussed whether something is miraculous or not, but I never mentioned that at all. That is a much bigger, but somewhat related discussion. I agree with the gist of what you said, but I have found those who advocate such an absolute view falter when it comes to explaining divine revelation in the form of a scripture.
I would be interested to know of any Quranic works or reasoning which attempt to explain such or attempts to claim God does not know which path we will take.
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God doesn't know what will you do next. The reason for creation was for God to know who is the best in conduct. If He already knew, there is no point in creation.
When something happens, God will know about it. Thats why Angels keep sending information to God. What is the point if God already knows.
So God is not an infinite being outside of time and space but actually a physical being. The angels take 50000 years to reach Him.
Peace.
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God doesn't know what will you do next. The reason for creation was for God to know who is the best in conduct. If He already knew, there is no point in creation.
When something happens, God will know about it. Thats why Angels keep sending information to God. What is the point if God already knows.
So God is not an infinite being outside of time and space but actually a physical being. The angels take 50000 years to reach Him.
Peace.
Wow. So God didn't create the universe for you?
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Peace
Saying God does not know what we will freely choose is an option to solving the dilemma with the added supplement that knowing what man will freely choose is impossible and against the laws of nature; omnipotence does not necessitate breaking the laws of nature or doing the impossible.
Wakas's option seems on the right track as well. The dilemma is built on something called the Principle of Alternate Possibilities. I must have alternate possibilities in order for my act to be free. If God knows the future, I can do nothing other than what God knows, thus I am not free. But I do not think the Principle of Alternate Possibilities is a necessary requirement for free will.
For example, assume that I am in a room and I must choose between leaving the room or staying in the room. Let's add the condition that the door is locked. Thus, I really only have the possibility of staying in the room, no alternate possibilities. If I choose to stay in the room regardless, have I not acted freely? I stole this example from John Locke.
Peace
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Peace
Saying God does not know what we will freely choose is an option to the dilemma.
Wakas's option seems on the right track as well. The dilemma is built on something called the Principle of Alternate Possibilities. I must have alternate possibilities in order for my act to be free. If God knows the future, I can do nothing other than what God knows, thus I am not free. But I do not think the Principle of Alternate Possibilities is a necessary requirement for free will.
For example, assume that I am in a room and I must choose between leaving the room or staying in the room. Let's add the condition that the door is locked. Thus, I really only have the possibility of staying in the room, no alternate possibilities. If I choose to stay in the room regardless, have I not acted freely? I stole this example from John Locke.
Peace
How does God knowing what you will do control what you will do?
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I agree with you Wootah. That's the point of the example of the room
Peace -
Haha sometimes doing this stuff makes my head spin. If we agree that's good. sun
Cheers
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Peace you gunna eat that
You wrote
For example, assume that I am in a room and I must choose between leaving the room or staying in the room. Let's add the condition that the door is locked. Thus, I really only have the possibility of staying in the room, no alternate possibilities. If I choose to stay in the room regardless, have I not acted freely? I stole this example from John Locke.
By this reasoning, a slave who is locked away and prevented from the possibility of being free has chosen to be a slave. I guess he could choose suicide. So he has a choice, doesn't he? I think not.
My point is that sometimes it may not appear overtly that someone is forced to do something. However, when there is no choice in what the end result is, such a person is effectively forced to do the only thing possible. While this may appear contradictory, I don't think it is. The lack of choice means you have no choice. If you have no choice, you are forced to do something because there is nothing else you can do.
Imraan
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Peace you gunna eat that
You wrote
By this reasoning, a slave who is locked away and prevented from the possibility of being free has chosen to be a slave. I guess he could choose suicide. So he has a choice, doesn't he? I think not.Imraan
Peace,
In the example, the participant is ignorant of the fact that he was no other possibilities; we humans are too.
Peace
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bravo i agree...
God only KNOWS our decisions, He doesn't make them for us...
and since He knows us, how we're raised, our environment and how it affects us, He knows the outcome, knows what path we'll takePeace,
Respect.I agree. That is why we need The Qur'an, to make the Right Decision. God willing.
I feel like Neo in the Matrix.
You?Peace.
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I can only assume that those who think God does not know which option we will choose is that He reveals scripture to certain people and He had no idea if they were going to say "nah, not really my thing God, make someone else a messenger" or if they would be killed next week! Probability suggests that this would have happened, i.e. there were other messengers but they got killed half way through their mission and God said "oops, never saw that coming, oh well, I will try another".
This is of course absurd.
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The reason for creation was for God to know who is the best in conduct. If He already knew, there is no point in creation.
This is often claimed, but it is very clear that God is in no need of anyone or anything. This life is not for God, this life is for us, it is our self-testimony. This life is a test and all our actions are our exam paper, and we hand it in, willingly or unwillingly, when its over.
Let's say you have a teacher, and he knows his students very well, why not at the end of the course pass and fail them according to what he thinks? Of course, students would cry out this is unfair, so what would the students demand? Something that allows them to prove themselves, to determine their ability, a test! Hence why we're here.
We accepted the amana/trust
http//free-minds.org/thetrust. -
Pre-Cognisant Omnipotence = No Free Will Accountability.
Plain and simple.
If Allah, Subhanu Wa Ta'Ala, knows what we will do before we do it..then what is the point indeed. It becomes a robotic universe.
To me, and my limited understanding, it makes a whole lot more sense if Allah gave us the capacity to act for the good or the bad. It makes the universe infinitely more interesting and beautiful. In this scenario, Allah is all powerful. Which means, he can intervene directly in human affairs so that his will is done. Someone could choose to do something that is contrary to his will, but he intervenes and that person is not permitted to achieve their ends. He is omnipotent, which means to me, he has eyes and ears everywhere that do not fail in reporting.
Just my two cents.
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Putting an = sign does not make it equal.
If God intervenes, which He would have to repeatedly do if He did not know what was going to happen, would mean no fixed structure/scale to work within thus determining one's good/bad would be difficult. Of course, you could say "but God is Just, if he changes the scale, He would do it in a fair way". Seems odd conceptually.
It would be interested if any Quranic argument could be made. I haven't seen any.
