Childre of Israel , Media or jerusalem?
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Torah, the one Allah tells you He sent.
yes I know. Still doesn't say it was Ishmael that was going to be sacrificed though. Abraham was 86 when Ishmael was born and 100 when Isaac was born and 175 when he died.Quran tells you only parts of these prevous stories and refers you to Torah for detail, It is not necessary to KNOW the detail for our salvation as they are examples of the prophets and their belief and how they followed God but if you are going to argue sequence and who is who then you should refer to where the detail is, which is Torah.
Where is Toraat which was sent by Allah? Do you think by writing or giving a caption to any book will entitle it to be called Toraat?
The argument is even weaker than that put forward by Hadith mongers termed sunnis on this forum.
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Is it something near-fetched while being second wife is a far-fetched deduction??? You also did not care for "barren".
Qur'aan quotes about his thanks for grant of two sons only. Deduction can be made only from available information not from presumptions.
And did you care for "old lady" part in that verse?
If you tell an 80 years old grandma that she will have a baby, you can expect to have such a reaction from her.
I don't know if Ibrahim had many wifes, but I know that the 2 wifes story is based only on fairytales.
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Where is Toraat which was sent by Allah? Do you think by writing or giving a caption to any book will entitle it to be called Toraat?
Yet you are convinced we have the Quran as sent by Allah? Allah tells you in that Quran about the Torah and tells you HOW the message was corrupted with their tongues. There are countess references to Torah in Quran and if you read it you may become clearer on some things.The argument is even weaker than that put forward by Hadith mongers termed sunnis on this forum.
As a proud Sunni yourself its odd that you should come out with this when you yourself have obviously used hadith to come up with what you have so far as you have been told this was Ishmael being sacrificed there, as it is not in Quran. The Quran refers you to Torah, it refers you away from hadith and my information is from the Book Allah said He sent, not the hadith that have twisted the whole thing (Quran)with thier tongues.
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And did you care for "old lady" part in that verse?
If you tell an 80 years old grandma that she will have a baby, you can expect to have such a reaction from her.
In the same way as if you told a virgin who had never been with a man she would have a child without ever having to be with a man.I don't know if Ibrahim had many wifes, but I know that the 2 wifes story is based only on fairytales.
Torah is a fairy tale?
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Quote
The argument is even weaker than that put forward by Hadith mongers termed sunnis on this forum.As a proud Sunni yourself its odd that you should come out with this when you yourself have obviously used hadith to come up with what you have so far as you have been told this was Ishmael being sacrificed there, as it is not in Quran. The Quran refers you to Torah, it refers you away from hadith and my information is from the Book Allah said He sent, not the hadith that have twisted the whole thing (Quran)with thier tongues.
You have now started bluffing. I quoted you the Aayat of Qur'aan talking in sequence about two different sons. The first son was asked about sacrifice, and you admitted the first son was Ismail alahissalam. And about sequence you brought a funny argument of mention of Skies and Earth after the episode.
What was sent in Torah is now nowhere except embodied in Qur'aan. Jews were asked during the period of revelation of Qur'an to bring Toraat, they never brought it, and I don't know from where have you got it now.
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You have now started bluffing. I quoted you the Aayat of Qur'aan talking in sequence about two different sons. The first son was asked about sacrifice, and you admitted the first son was Ismail alahissalam. And about sequence you brought a funny argument of mention of Skies and Earth after the episode.
Me bluffing?
You first saidPlease consult
37100-112 alongwith 2172 and about the timing of birth of second son also see 1169 onwards. For first son description is Haleem and for second son description is Aleem in 1552-53/5124-25.
And I proved that this does not say first and second son but son and grandson
You then said
The news of this son was given/communicated by those who had come to execute the punishment upon nation of Lut alahissalam. Does it not show he was born after the execution of punishment upon that nation?
First son is granted in response to demand/prayer. The other son is granted as an unsolicited gift. Does it not show the sequence of births?
"O my Sustainer Lord! Grant me a son that be from amongst the righteous"
In response We gave him good news of a softhearted enduring son.
He got the son thereafter when he crossed over to the age of working with him, he said,
This son was born in response to the prayer/demand for a son, and sacrifice issue is about him.
And We gave him glad news about Ies'hauq , Elevated and Chosen from amongst the Perfectionists.
After the episode of sacrifice is over, this glad news was given about Ishaque alhissalam.
And to him We gifted Ies'hauqe and Ya'qoob as unsolicited gift;
2172
the unsolicitec gift is more likely to the the granson Jacob. Your version of 'later on' or 'after the sacrifice is over' is not there and I posted that just because this came after verse about sacrifice does not mean it was in that sequence as the later verses show where creation is mentioned which is obviously not in sequence.The son from the request is Isaac not Ishmael. If Abraham had prayed for the first son then Sarah his wife would have bore him, not Hagar the handmaiden. The son prayed for was Isaac and that was the son of the sacrifice. Reading it your way the sacrifice thing was all been and gone before Isaac was born and Isaac was a gift not asked for.
What was sent in Torah is now nowhere except embodied in Qur'aan. Jews were asked during the period of revelation of Qur'an to bring Toraat, they never brought it, and I don't know from where have you got it now.
That also is not quite how it was. You are implying the never brought it because they didn't have it. 3.93 pretty much says they were telling lies about things and to go get the book if they are telling the truth, which they weren't and knew full well the book would prove them wrong.
What is verse 28.49 saying? What are the 'both these two'?
Your brainwashing regarding the Torah is showing. The Quran MANY times confirms the Torah and the majority of Quran reminders and examples are regarding what is in it. The Torah is the first 5 books in the Old testament and all about Abraham is in the first one, Genesis. Quran is reminding you about something you have not bothered to read before declaring it false.
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Please consult
37100-112 alongwith 2172 and about the timing of birth of second son also see 1169 onwards. For first son description is Haleem and for second son description is Aleem in 1552-53/5124-25.
And I proved that this does not say first and second son but son and grandson
I am nowhere bringing in the above quote grand son Yaqub alahissalam. Haleem is used for Ismail alahissalam and Aleem has been used for Ishaque alahissalam.
37100-112 describes the good news of birth of first son in response to prayer, Ismail alahissalam and the episode of sacrifice. And after its narration, in 37112 the glad news of Ishaq alahissalam is mentioned. Here even grand son Yaqub alahissalam is not mentioned.
How can you deny this that sacrifice relates to the son mentioned in 37100-101 and not to the second son mentioned in 37112?
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The son from the request is Isaac not Ishmael. If Abraham had prayed for the first son then Sarah his wife would have bore him, not Hagar the handmaiden. The son prayed for was Isaac and that was the son of the sacrifice.
3799- Talks about his migration from his own nation.
37100 Prayer for a son.
37101 Prayer responded, "particle Fa" is the indicative; good news of a son given.
37102 The granted son grows to the age of moving and working with him.
37103-111 The episode of sacrifice narrated.
37112 And further information about news of grant of Ishaq alahissalam given.
Here in 37112 what makes you to presume that Ishaq alahissalam is the son granted in response to prayer mentioned in 37100 which had already been met and accomplished in 37101?
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3799- Talks about his migration from his own nation.
37100 Prayer for a son.
37101 Prayer responded, "particle Fa" is the indicative; good news of a son given.
37102 The granted son grows to the age of moving and working with him.
37103-111 The episode of sacrifice narrated.
37112 And further information about news of grant of Ishaq alahissalam given.
Here in 37112 what makes you to presume that Ishaq alahissalam is the son granted in response to prayer mentioned in 37100 which had already been met and accomplished in 37101?
Putting 37 and 21 together pretty much line by line, they recount the same story. take careful notice of the verse numbers
21.51 We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.
37.83 Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.
37.84 Behold! he approached his Lord with a sound heart.
21.52 Behold! he said to his father and his people, "What are these images, to which ye are (so assiduously) devoted?"
37.85 Behold! he said to his father and to his people, "What is that which ye worship?
37.86 "Is it a falsehood- gods other than Allah- that ye desire?21.53 They said, "We found our fathers worshipping them."
21.54 He said, "Indeed ye have been in manifest error - ye and your fathers."
21.55 They said, "Have you brought us the Truth, or are you one of those who jest?"37.87 "Then what is your idea about the Lord of the worlds?"
37.88 Then did he cast a glance at the Stars.21.56 He said, "Nay, your Lord is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, He Who created them (from nothing) and I am a witness to this (Truth).
21.57 "And by Allah, I have a plan for your idols - after ye go away and turn your backs"..37.89 And he said, "I am indeed sick (at heart)!"
37.90 So they turned away from him, and departed.
37.91 Then did he turn to their gods and said, "will ye not eat (of the offerings before you)?...
37.92 "What is the matter with you that ye speak not (intelligently)?"
37.93 Then did he turn upon them, striking (them) with the right hand.21.58 So he broke them to pieces, (all) but the biggest of them, that they might turn (and address themselves) to it.
37.94 Then came (the worshippers) with hurried steps, and faced (him).
21.59 They said, "Who has done this to our gods? He must indeed be some man of impiety!"
21.60 They said, "We heard a youth talk of them He is called Abraham."
21.61 They said, "Then bring him before the eyes of the people, that they may bear witness."
21.62 They said, "Art thou the one that did this with our gods, O Abraham?"37.95 He said "Worship ye that which ye have (yourselves) carved?
37.96 "But Allah has created you and your handwork!"21.63 He said "Nay, this was done by - this is their biggest one! ask them, if they can speak intelligently!"
21.64 So they turned to themselves and said, "Surely ye are the ones in the wrong!"
21.65 Then were they confounded with shame (they said), "Thou knowest full well that these (idols) do not speak!
21.66 (Abraham) said, "Do ye then worship, besides Allah, things that can neither be of any good to you nor do you harm?
21.67 "Fie upon you, and upon the things that ye worship besides Allah! Have ye no sense?"..
21.68 They said, "Burn him and protect your gods, If ye do (anything at all)!"37.97 They said, "Build him a furnace, and throw him into the blazing fire!"
21.69 We said, "O Fire! be thou cool, and (a means of) safety for Abraham!
21.70 Then they sought a stratagem against him but We made them the ones that lost most!37.98 (This failing), they then sought a stratagem against him, but We made them the ones most humiliated!
21.71 But We delivered him and (his nephew) Lut (and directed them) to the land which We have blessed for the nations.
21.72 And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).37.99 He said "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!
37.100 "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
37.101 So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.The righteous son prayed for and promised was Isaac, the additonal gift was the grandson Jacob.
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Ayisha,
This shows you have perfectly understood that you were wrong, but wish to stick to your point even through bluff.
You abruptly stop at 37101 from where the issue begins and you wishfully conlude "The righteous son prayed for and promised was Isaac, the additonal gift was the grandson Jacob".Here there is no mention of Yaqub .
Instead immediately after narrating information about sacrifice the information about good news of another son Ishaque alahissalam is mentioned. -
Ayisha,
This shows you have perfectly understood that you were wrong, but wish to stick to your point even through bluff.
You abruptly stop at 37101 from where the issue begins and you wishfully conlude "The righteous son prayed for and promised was Isaac, the additonal gift was the grandson Jacob".
You have showed you did not read it nor look at the verses.I stopped at 37.101 as you know the rest and it does not say it was Ishmael that was sacrificed but says it was Isaac that was the son prayed for as 21.72 shows which lines up with 37.101, Isaac being the son.
Here there is no mention of Yaqub .
Instead immediately after narrating information about sacrifice the information about good news of another son Ishaque alahissalam is mentioned.21.72 mentions Jacob
After the naration of the sacrifice in 37, which is not in 21 which is the same event in 37, it says that Allah HAD granted him that righteous son, the one that laid down fo sacrifice which was Isaac.
21.51-72 is the same event as 37.83-101
21.72 says the name of the child is Isaac, 37.101 says we gave him good news of a boy which is named in 21.72 as Isaac.
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I stopped at 37.101 as you know the rest and it does not say it was Ishmael that was sacrificed but says it was Isaac that was the son prayed for as 21.72 shows which lines up with 37.101, Isaac being the son.
You now consciously avoid to read jointly 37100 and 37112. These two mention two sons, one earlier and the second afterwards. The episode is in between the two from 37101 to 37111. In 37112 is mentioned Ishaque alahissalm by name. Who is the son in 37101 who faced the sacrifice episode?
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You now consciously avoid to read jointly 37100 and 37112. These two mention two sons, one earlier and the second afterwards. The episode is in between the two from 37101 to 37111. In 37112 is mentioned Ishaque alahissalm by name. Who is the son in 37101 who faced the sacrifice episode?
Mazhar please do not accuse me of consciously doing what you do all the time. I have avoided nothing.
37.100-112 does not mention 2 sons. You are consciously avoiding seeing that 21.72 is the same event at 37.101 and that in 21.72 the son is named as Isaac. YOU have decided that 2 sons are mentioned because of the sequence only in 37.
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32.23 We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee) and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.
37.101 So We gave him the good news (Fabashsharnahu) of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
37.112 And We gave him the good news (Wabashsharnahu)of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
37.113 We blessed him and Isaac but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.
6.84 We gave him Isaac and Jacob all (three) guided and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron thus do We reward those who do good
You could read that as David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron were all before Abraham, they weren't
38.45 And commemorate Our Servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, possessors of Power and Vision.
38.46 Verily We did choose them for a special (purpose)- proclaiming the Message of the Hereafter.11.71 And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed But we gave her glad tidings (fabashsharnaha)of Isaac, and after him, of Jacob
15.53 They said "Fear not! We give thee glad tidings (nubashiruka)of a son endowed with wisdom."
15.54 He said "Do ye give me glad tidings that old age has seized me? Of what, then, is your good news?"51.28 (When they did not eat), He conceived a fear of them. They said, "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge.
There was never any 'good news' of the son Ishmael as that was down to Sarah asking Abraham to have a child with hagar the handmaiden, not of asking God for a righteous son. The son prayed for by both Abraham and sarah was Issac, not Ishmael.
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37.101 So We gave him the good news (Fabashsharnahu) of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
37.112 And We gave him the good news (Wabashsharnahu)of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
And you say both these "good news" relate to one son, Ishaque alahissalm. Thereat I can only suggest to start taking an elementary course in Arabic otherwise you will keep reading Qur'aan with the eye of so called Torah or Jews hadith.
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What is verse 28.49 saying? What are the 'both these two'?
Mazhar you didn't answer this
Pagan leaders were responded about what they stated and mentioned in 2848
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.49.gif
you, the Messenger ask them, "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them, I will follow that, if you people are truthful in your assertions to people"This talks about Toraat from Allah given in writing on tablets, it has nothing to do with tales and conjectural myths written by people under the caption/title Torah.
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Pagan leaders were responded about what they stated and mentioned in 2848
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/028.%20Al%20Qasas/28.49.gif
you, the Messenger ask them, "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them, I will follow that, if you people are truthful in your assertions to people"This talks about Toraat from Allah given in writing on tablets, it has nothing to do with tales and conjectural myths written by people under the caption/title Torah.
The 2 of them are Torah and Quran and nowhere does it say it is refering to stone tablets but it is clear the Torah was with them then and Muhammed says "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them." according to your translation. This confirms Torah as a guide as well as Quran and confirms Torah to be a BOOK.
32.23 We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee) and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.
The BOOK of Moses was still around when Muhammed was given Quran and is still around NOW. There is nothing in Quran to say its not and nothing to say what we have now (which is same as we had then) is not Torah. Quran is clearly telling you this is also a guide and there is none better than Torah and Quran.
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And you say both these "good news" relate to one son, Ishaque alahissalm. Thereat I can only suggest to start taking an elementary course in Arabic otherwise you will keep reading Qur'aan with the eye of so called Torah or Jews hadith.
I am saying all the above relate to that one son Isaac.
If you think otherwise then there are numerous verses telling of the good news of Isaac and only the one you think is about Ishmael is before he was to be sacrificed.
The covenant was with the 'children of Israel' Israel was Jacob who was the son of Isaac.
2.40 O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me.29.27 And We gave (Abraham) Isaac and Jacob, and ordained among his progeny Prophethood and Revelation, and We granted him his reward in this life; and he was in the Hereafter (of the company) of the Righteous.
57.26 And We sent Noah and Abraham, and established in their line Prophethood and Revelation and some of them were on right guidance. But many of them became rebellious transgressors.
6.84 We gave him Isaac and Jacob all (three) guided and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron thus do We reward those who do good
The line of prophethood was from Abraham through Isaac through Jacob (Israel).