Childre of Israel , Media or jerusalem?
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The 2 of them are Torah and Quran and nowhere does it say it is refering to stone tablets but it is clear the Torah was with them then and Muhammed says "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them." according to your translation. This confirms Torah as a guide as well as Quran and confirms Torah to be a BOOK.
Agreed, but where does it say that the Torah they had at the time was the authentic original? The challenge by the Prophet was to bring something from God better than the Torah and the Quran.
That is not telling you about the Torah, that is telling you about the PEOPLE of the Torah.
This is confirming the Torah at the time of Muhammed was original
5.43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.It says they already have their own law yet they come to the Prophet in deviance. We can assume their "law" in this context was still authentic but what's to say everything they had in their Torah was authentic?
I think the other verses you quoted follow a similar line of thinking.
What I'm getting is that they obviously still had guidance within the scriptures that they had, but the Quran doesn't say what they had at the time was exactly the same as what was given to the old Prophets.
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The 2 of them are Torah and Quran and nowhere does it say it is refering to stone tablets but it is clear the Torah was with them then and Muhammed says "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them." according to your translation. This confirms Torah as a guide as well as Quran and confirms Torah to be a BOOK.
Agreed, but where does it say that the Torah they had at the time was the authentic original? The challenge by the Prophet was to bring something from God better than the Torah and the Quran.
Where does it say its not the original? Why would this even be discussed if it was not the Torah that ALLAH was challenging them about bringing something better? If it was not original at that time then surely Allah would have known and said so.That is not telling you about the Torah, that is telling you about the PEOPLE of the Torah.
This is confirming the Torah at the time of Muhammed was original
5.43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.It says they already have their own law yet they come to the Prophet in deviance. We can assume their "law" in this context was still authentic but what's to say everything they had in their Torah was authentic?
The Torah IS the Law. This is saying that they still have this plain command of Allah yet they are coming to Muhammed and still turn away. Again if it was not authentic at this time Allah would have known that.I think the other verses you quoted follow a similar line of thinking.
What I'm getting is that they obviously still had guidance within the scriptures that they had, but the Quran doesn't say what they had at the time was exactly the same as what was given to the old Prophets.
Are you sure it doesn't say it is the same Torah?
It doesnt say it wasnt either and why would Allah be refering to it (Torah) as many times as He does giving very plain verses that what it was at this time is what He gave them? Thre is absolutely nothing in Quran to say Torah at the time of Muhammed is not what Allah gave to Moses and there are numerous verses to confirm it was. Quran CONFIRMS it. Why would Allah confirm a Book that He knew at that time was not the same as He had given originally?
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Where does it say its not the original?
Again, the challenge was to bring something better than the Quran or the Torah. It says nothing about the state of the Torah at that time.
The Torah IS the Law. This is saying that they still have this plain command of Allah yet they are coming to Muhammed and still turn away. Again if it was not authentic at this time Allah would have known that.
Agreed, but you're missing the point I was making. They indeed had their own law in front of them but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic. The emphasis in this verse is their obvious disbelief, in that they are not sincere in their request of a decision from the Prophet. That's the ?story? of this verse i.e. they were going to the Prophet for a decision in the hope of a lenient one because they didn't like what they found in their own law. Allah says in this verse that they should have followed that law because God indeed sanctioned it, but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic.
Are you sure it doesn't say it is the same Torah?
Yes. Can you find an explicit verse that says it is? I'll change my mind if you can.
It doesnt say it wasnt either
Agreed.
and why would Allah be refering to it (Torah) as many times as He does giving very plain verses that what it was at this time is what He gave them?
Because the Torah is from Allah. That's not under dispute. But you're suggesting the Quran says the Torah at the time of the Prophet was the same as what was given to Moses. It doesn't say that, as far as I can see.
Thre is absolutely nothing in Quran to say Torah at the time of Muhammed is not what Allah gave to Moses and there are numerous verses to confirm it was.
The verses you've quoted so far don't confirm that the Torah at that time was the same as the one given to Moses.
Quran CONFIRMS it. Why would Allah confirm a Book that He knew at that time was not the same as He had given originally?
The Quran confirms the Torah given to Moses. That doesn't mean the Quran confirms every version of the Torah in existence at that time.
Many rabbinical scholars believe the five books of the Torah were bought together during the time of the Persian Empire from a wide range of manuscripts and oral transmission. I'm not saying they're right, but these people know more about the Torah than us. There also other theories too. What's clear is much of the original teachings of Moses would have survived, as proven by some of the Quran verses you've quoted. But to say that the scripture the Arab Jews had at the time was the same as the one given to Moses is not found explicitly from the Quran and is unlikely to be true in the light of research by Jewish scholars.
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How do you prove Quran is from Allah and not written by Muhammed from his own thoughts?
It looks strange question from a lady quoting dozens of Aayat in one go from Qur'aan. Perhaps there are dozen of Ayat on this topic saying it is not compiled and drafted by the Messenger of Allah. And this perception of some people is challenged by asking them to produce from anywhere from the whole of world a similar one if they genuinely believe if it was authored by him.
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I know many muslims who will not even touch the Arabic Quran until they have done wudu, the Jews do not touch the Torah AT ALL with their hands, a stick of some kind is used to turn the pages.
Such were petty tricks of clergy to keep people away from the Original Book and restrict them to what they gossip.
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Again, the challenge was to bring something better than the Quran or the Torah. It says nothing about the state of the Torah at that time.
So the challenge would be to bring something better than Quran and Torah even in a bad state? Please Mushu, don't insult Allah. If it was not from Allah then it would be easy to bring a better quide than that surely.The Torah IS the Law. This is saying that they still have this plain command of Allah yet they are coming to Muhammed and still turn away. Again if it was not authentic at this time Allah would have known that.
Agreed, but you're missing the point I was making. They indeed had their own law in front of them but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic. The emphasis in this verse is their obvious disbelief, in that they are not sincere in their request of a decision from the Prophet. That's the ?story? of this verse i.e. they were going to the Prophet for a decision in the hope of a lenient one because they didn't like what they found in their own law. Allah says in this verse that they should have followed that law because God indeed sanctioned it, but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic.
My whole argument is not based round this one verse. I know what it was about.
You are saying that Allah sanctioned the Law that was not authentic?
I will repeat myself again, the LAW = Torah is the first 5 books of the OT, the Law of Moses and that is IT. The rest of the OT is NOT the Law and is not the Torah that Allah spoke of.Yes. Can you find an explicit verse that says it is? I'll change my mind if you can.
32.23 We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee) and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.
be not in doubt of the book of Moses reaching Muhammed.
Because the Torah is from Allah. That's not under dispute. But you're suggesting the Quran says the Torah at the time of the Prophet was the same as what was given to Moses. It doesn't say that, as far as I can see.
see above verse and others I have posted in this thread. If this was NOT as it was then we Allah would have said so, instead the Jews are told to judge by what was revealed to them, if it was no longer the same then Allah would have known that and said that they had changed it NOT just by their tonges as they did by ADDING the oral Torah which was the hadith of Moses and the laws they already had BEFORE the Law. The Torah is still the Torah, the Talmud and Tanak are NOT.The verses you've quoted so far don't confirm that the Torah at that time was the same as the one given to Moses.
So you think Allah is telling the jews to judge by a corrupt book?The Quran confirms the Torah given to Moses. That doesn't mean the Quran confirms every version of the Torah in existence at that time.
Many rabbinical scholars believe the five books of the Torah were bought together during the time of the Persian Empire from a wide range of manuscripts and oral transmission. I'm not saying they're right, but these people know more about the Torah than us. There also other theories too. What's clear is much of the original teachings of Moses would have survived, as proven by some of the Quran verses you've quoted. But to say that the scripture the Arab Jews had at the time was the same as the one given to Moses is not found explicitly from the Quran and is unlikely to be true in the light of research by Jewish scholars.
Many Islamic scholars think the original Quran was burnt and the one we have now was done by Omar or Uthman??(I may have that caliph wrong)
Quran was recited and supposedly later written down. Torah was recited and supposedly written down later.
The oral Torah (This is NOT the Torah) was supposedly the saying and explanations of Moses which continued in oral form, just like hadith, and when eventually written down was called the mishnah, centuries later other commentaries were added and called the Gemarah, the Mishnah and the Gemara together are called the Talmud, a bit like tafsir ibn Kathir! There are 2 of these, the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud. These are divided into sections exactly like hadith of Bukhari.
The Torah that Allah speaks of in Quran is the LAW which is the 5 books of Moses only.
There is as much evidence that this is NOT the original as there is evidence that this Quran is NOT original and if we believe that then we might as well give up now.
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How do you prove Quran is from Allah and not written by Muhammed from his own thoughts?
It looks strange question from a lady quoting dozens of Aayat in one go from Qur'aan. Perhaps there are dozen of Ayat on this topic saying it is not compiled and drafted by the Messenger of Allah. And this perception of some people is challenged by asking them to produce from anywhere from the whole of world a similar one if they genuinely believe if it was authored by him.
taken out of context again Mazhar? You must really be struggling with this one ;D
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I know many muslims who will not even touch the Arabic Quran until they have done wudu, the Jews do not touch the Torah AT ALL with their hands, a stick of some kind is used to turn the pages.
Such were petty tricks of clergy to keep people away from the Original Book and restrict them to what they gossip.
The Muslim clergy or the Jewish clergy?
Neither keeps anyone away from the original book though.
You are really struggling aren't you ;D
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And how they accept/appoint you, the Messenger, as Judge when with them is the Tor'aat wherein is written the Command of Allah afterwards despite this Command they turn away,http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.043a.gif
and they are certainly not the believers.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/Temp%2001%207.157f%20small.gif
who physically follow that Messenger who is the Chosen and Elevated from amongst those who were not given the Book earlier. That Chosen and Elevated about whom they find mentioned in writing with them in the Tor'aat and the In'jeel.Does your so called torah contain this in writing? If not then how could you consider it Toraat given by Allah to Musa alahissalam? If you dont find this written therein then either you have to treat your so called torah as nothing but jew hadith more unreliable than that of Bukhari's or else you have to plainly deny to believe in the word of Allah recorded in Qur'aan.
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http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/Temp%2001%207.157f%20small.gif
who physically follow that Messenger who is the Chosen and Elevated from amongst those who were not given the Book earlier. That Chosen and Elevated about whom they find mentioned in writing with them in the Tor'aat and the In'jeel.Does your so called torah contain this in writing? If not then how could you consider it Toraat given by Allah to Musa alahissalam? If you dont find this written therein then either you have to treat your so called torah as nothing but jew hadith more unreliable than that of Bukhari's or else you have to plainly deny to believe in the word of Allah recorded in Qur'aan.
Yes it does.
I am the one here saying that I DO believe Quran when it clearly tells me Torah reached Muhammed and is the Torah Allah gave Moses and YOU are the one here DENYING that Allah even had any idea what He was talking about!
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Does your so called torah contain this in writing? If not then how could you consider it Toraat given by Allah to Musa alahissalam? If you dont find this written therein then either you have to treat your so called torah as nothing but jew hadith more unreliable than that of Bukhari's or else you have to plainly deny to believe in the word of Allah recorded in Qur'aan.
Just one minute here Mazhar. I have posted you verses regarding Allah saying He confirmed Torah was sent by Him, that this Torah reached Muhammed and that the jews of that time are told to judge by IT. Now if YOU do not believe what Allah says in Quran then it is YOU that deny the word of Allah.
Now unless you can bring me a surah saying this Torah spoken of by Allah in Quran is NOT the Torah that He originally gave Moses and was still in existance when Muhammed got Quran, then you are going to have to either agree it IS or agree that YOU deny the word of Allah in Quran.
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Just one minute here Mazhar. I have posted you verses regarding Allah saying He confirmed Torah was sent by Him, that this Torah reached Muhammed and that the jews of that time are told to judge by IT. Now if YOU do not believe what Allah says in Quran then it is YOU that deny the word of Allah.
Now unless you can bring me a surah saying this Torah spoken of by Allah in Quran is NOT the Torah that He originally gave Moses and was still in existance when Muhammed got Quran, then you are going to have to either agree it IS or agree that YOU deny the word of Allah in Quran.
I am talking about only that book which you refer as torah. You consider it to be the Original Toraat given to Musa alahissalam.
And Qur'aan tells specific statement having been written in the Toraat.Now if that torah of yours is the Original Toraat, as you persistently claim, then what Allah says is written in black and white therein, you must find that in your torah.
If you don't find it then either of the two statements you will have to decide, i.e.
(1) the book you refer as torah is not Toraat which was given in writing to Musa alahissalam, or
(2) you negate the statement of Qur'aan saying it was not written in Toraat given to Musa alahissalm.
I don't know why this simple thing you are avoiding.
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Just one minute here Mazhar. I have posted you verses regarding Allah saying He confirmed Torah was sent by Him, that this Torah reached Muhammed and that the jews of that time are told to judge by IT. Now if YOU do not believe what Allah says in Quran then it is YOU that deny the word of Allah.
Now unless you can bring me a surah saying this Torah spoken of by Allah in Quran is NOT the Torah that He originally gave Moses and was still in existance when Muhammed got Quran, then you are going to have to either agree it IS or agree that YOU deny the word of Allah in Quran.
That is a pretty interesting position. You do know that bits of the Talmud miraculously made it to the Quran. What are your thoughts on that? Plus there are parts of the ''Torah'' that are quoted in the Quran and it is simply not in the Jewish Torah!
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I am talking about only that book which you refer as torah. You consider it to be the Original Toraat given to Musa alahissalam.
And Qur'aan tells specific statement having been written in the Toraat.Now if that torah of yours is the Original Toraat, as you persistently claim, then what Allah says is written in black and white therein, you must find that in your torah.
If you don't find it then either of the two statements you will have to decide, i.e.
(1) the book you refer as torah is not Toraat which was given in writing to Musa alahissalam, or
(2) you negate the statement of Qur'aan saying it was not written in Toraat given to Musa alahissalm.
I don't know why this simple thing you are avoiding.
Not avoiding it at all, I answered it on the previous page directly after you asked it.
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That is a pretty interesting position. You do know that bits of the Talmud miraculously made it to the Quran. What are your thoughts on that?
which bits Rami, I would be interested to know and look at that too.Plus there are parts of the ''Torah'' that are quoted in the Quran and it is simply not in the Jewish Torah!
again which bits please.
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Perhaps posts went ogether
I am sometimes fast, but not fast enough to answer you at the same time you ask the question.Please quote it from torah.
Spoken to Moses
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. -
Pl also quote few before this so that "them" also becomes clear.
1The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
2Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brethren the LORD is their inheritance, as he hath said unto them.
3And this shall be the priest's due from the people, from them that offer a sacrifice, whether it be ox or sheep; and they shall give unto the priest the shoulder, and the two cheeks, and the maw.
4The firstfruit also of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the first of the fleece of thy sheep, shalt thou give him.
5For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever.
6And if a Levite come from any of thy gates out of all Israel, where he sojourned, and come with all the desire of his mind unto the place which the LORD shall choose;
7Then he shall minister in the name of the LORD his God, as all his brethren the Levites do, which stand there before the LORD.
8They shall have like portions to eat, beside that which cometh of the sale of his patrimony.
9When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
13Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
14For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
15The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously thou shalt not be afraid of him.