WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...

unknownuser

PEACE SHM

Now it is like this and sorry for the abalogy I could not find any better and did not want to spend time thinking up one ... you throw a banana to a hungry bunch of a PRIMATES (monkeyes and humans) now both are from the same branch of species however HUMANS are a subset with FREE WILL and they may be angry at you and decide NO we will not jump on this banana and try to take it ..

The point is .. the natural law of the universe would dictate that a hungry animal would charge for food without "disobeying such natural law" however only a primate with free will may have pride or decide to be on a hunger strike that would violate that law (since Iblees had free will) the angels in general (excluding the jinn subset) follow the natural law .. once God has spoken a command they perform ..

SO looking at it from this point of view it would reconcile the fact that the order was given to ANGELS (included iblees jinn type subset) .. Iblees being a subset of angels with free will chose not to (hence the need to explain in the verse WHY he did not naturally obey because he was one of the Jinn) and I think this would explain it all ..

that sounds very logical. however, i dont think that Angel dont have free-will. i cant really prove it yet, but i dont think so. howevre, jinns being a subset of angel seem very logical. great analogy with the human/monkey thing.

The above analogy is not logical and it fails because, while both humans and mokeys are primates by nature, the natures of the angels are not know, while the nature of the Jinn are, hence, to conclude that the Jinn and angels are of the same nature is purely conjectural/extrapolation and not based on knowledge.

Main Entry EXTRAPOLATE to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area.

Main Entry KNOW be convinced or certain of.

Main Entry KNOWLEDGE the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.

The monkeys, a form of daabatan, can not make a moral choice, because they are not literate, hence, they have no knowledge of ethics/morality, nor, are they self-conscious of their own beingness. No messengers where sent to the debaatan or angels, hence, once again, there is no issue of moral choice in regard to them.

You are correct in your postion that the Jinn are not a subset of the angels and 1649-50 and 1850 makes this extraordinarliy clear.

Jinn and men are both homo sapien sapien, hence, can make moral choices. Ayat 2185 establishes this.

savage_carrot

Peace priest bokmei!

Don't i know you?

You've asked extremely good questions, Precious, and no one can seem to answer you adequately.

So gollumssss, that was somewhat of a clue...and extrapolate...clearer and clearer...welcome back... lol

BornFree

Awww just shut up; twisted what a hypocrite.

savage_carrot

What are you on about? Who are you asking to shut up and a hypocrite? Explain yourself otherwise don't come up with such posts that are completely impolite and show extreme rudeness.

yfn123

Greetings with peace, OberonSky.

Do you know of any reference to the following in al-quran?

Anwar Azim

FInally on the issue of angels made from light / smokeless fire...

vincentia

quote PRIEST_BOKMEI

certainly is the operative word in your analysis, however, the Jinn, according to Al-Quran, are not invisible, because they are created of fire and fire, especially at night, is highly visible.

I suggest you read the quran sometime before you make such statements.

Where in the quran does it say jinns are made OF fire?. Answer no where in the quran does it say such a think.

The quran says that jinns are made FROM fire NOT OF fire.

Your logic is floored and irational. You are also contradicting yourself when you say jinns are made OF fire and also that jinns are homo sapiens. They cant be both.

A former member by the name of dhulqarnain made these same basic and irration statements that you are making.

the Jinn, according to Al-Quran, are not invisible

Please show me one verse from the quran that says jinns are NOT invisible or do NOT have the ability to be invisible.

unknownuser

I suggest you read the quran sometime before you make such statements.

From what I've read of your posts, I hope you will avail yourself of your own advice.

Where in the quran does it say jinns are made OF fire?. Answer no where in the quran does it say such a think. The quran says that jinns are made FROM fire NOT OF fire. Your logic is floored and irational.

And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.

And He created the jinn of a flame of fire.

"OF" and "FROM" are used interchangeably by the translators. What, exactly, is your point?

You are also contradicting yourself when you say jinns are made OF fire and also that jinns are homo sapiens. They cant be both.

Did you seen me define the Jinn as being made of actual fire? My position is that the Jinn are human beings and their being made from fire is a metaphor

A former member by the name of dhulqarnain made these same basic and irration statements that you are making.

Apparently, he knows what he is talking about. Point out for us something he stated that was irrational.

Quote
the Jinn, according to Al-Quran, are not invisible

Please show me one verse from the quran that says jinns are NOT invisible or do NOT have the ability to be invisible.

I have no obligation to prove a negative, where is your sense of...logic. My position is that no ayat defines them as being invisible as many suggest/conjecture that they are. Your question is not very meaningful.

2533 And no question/arguement do they bring to thee but We reveal to thee the truth and the best explanation (thereof).

"If", and that is, once again, the operative term, but if you believe the above ayat, then Quran answers the question...are the Jinn...visible or not?

Ayat 726 concludes that the Jinn are visible otherwise other human beings could not seek refuge with them.

And that persons from among men used to seek refuge with persons from among jinn, so they increased them in wrongdoing

YankeeDoodle

PB,

What's the rational behind using Jinns and Insan to make them sound as a separate entity.Why not use just Jinn or Insan to classify them as one type to remove any doubts. Also God should just make them both of clay or fire.

Unless of course you are referring to the Good guys being made of clay and the bad guys being made of fire??
cheers

unknownuser

PEACE YD

PB, What's the rational behind using Jinns and Insan to make them sound as a separate entity.Why not use just Jinn or Insan to classify them as one type to remove any doubts. Also God should just make them both of clay or fire.

Jinn and men, given their natures, are different. The Jinn, appear to be bold/aggressive/powerful while men appear to be of a more sedate nature. What stands out though is that, Al-Quran was sent to humans, hence, the Jinn must be human.

The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the distinction...

5156 I have only created JINNs and men, that they may serve Me.

We serve Allah, by following Al-Quran.

YankeeDoodle

PB,

Jinn and men, given their natures, are different. The Jinn, appear to be bold/aggressive/powerful while men appear to be of a more sedate nature. What stands out though is that, Al-Quran was sent to humans, hence, the Jinn must be human.

O children of Adam, do not let the devil dupe you as he did when he caused the eviction of your parents from Paradise, and the removal of their garments to expose their bodies. He and his tribe see you, while you do not see them. We appoint the devils as companions of those who do not believe.

If your focus is on the nature of Jinn and men being of diffrent nature ie their physiological and pyschological state but they are the same physical nature meaning only the jinn in you can see you,then please explain further how is it that their tribes can see you.

cheers.

unknownuser

PEACE YD

If your focus is on the nature of Jinn and men being of diffrent nature ie their physiological and pyschological state but they are the same physical nature meaning only the jinn in you can see you,then please explain further how is it that their tribes can see you.

I cannot see you, but I'm certain that you are not an immaterial being...right? I cannot see the tribes which rule the U.S.A., however, they are not invisible beings, meaning, lacking material substance, but are out of my physical sight or ability to socially access.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

I cant believe this topic is near the top yet again!

Doesn't anyone know what the word "EXCEPT " means?

The God said that all of the malaika (not angels) prostrated EXCEPT iblis.

I mean, it just does not get any clearer. These "fairy tales" of winged beings whom no one has ever seen really has some people scared.

"malaika" comes from the root M-L-K which means "control". "Malaika" are the forces of control. "Shayteen" are evil thoughts.

(214) And if they met those who believed, they said "We believed". And if they were alone with to their (shayateen) evil thoughts they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

Everything starts in the mind as a thought, the God has described the two opposite forces thatare fighting in our minds(nafs).

Jinn only means "covered from sight" and certainly you cannot read anyones mind

unknownuser

PEACE IF

I cant believe this topic is near the top yet again!

Doesn't anyone know what the word "EXCEPT " means?

The God said that all of the malaika (not angels) prostrated EXCEPT iblis.

I mean, it just does not get any clearer. These "fairy tales" of winged beings whom no one has ever seen really has some people scared.

"malaika" comes from the root M-L-K which means "control". "Malaika" are the forces of control. "Shayteen" are evil thoughts.

(214) And if they met those who believed, they said "We believed". And if they were alone with to their (shayateen) evil thoughts they said "That we are with you, but we are mocking ."

Everything starts in the mind as a thought, the God has described the two opposite forces thatare fighting in our minds(nafs).

Jinn only means "covered from sight" and certainly you cannot read anyones mind

And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord).
They all revere their Lord, high above them, and they do all that they are commanded.
Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam" They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!

According to these ayats you are mistaken. The moving creatures and the malaika are specific classes of beings and are apart from humans . The moving creatures and malaika, according to ayat 1650, do not disobey, that is, "they do all that they are commanded". All means all.

Ayat 1850, clearly, defines Iblis as a Jinn and not one of the malaika or daabatan. Being human he could disobey, the daabatan and the malaika are non-human bengs, hence, they cannot disobey the commands of Allah. Allah, gives no exception to this. Al-Quran does not define the nature of the malaika, whereas, the jinn are defined as being created from a scorching wind/fire. Thus, to label Iblis as a malaika, is to extrapolate that the malaika are of a scorching wind as well.

Your thinking Iblis was a malaika is understandable given the wording of ayat 234, however, Al-Quran tafseers/explains itself and any such notion of Iblis being a malaika, is disspelled in ayat 1850.

Btw, I don't subscribe to the malaika as being winged creatures with harps and white robes either. D

YankeeDoodle

Hello PB,

I cannot see you, but I'm certain that you are not an immaterial being...right? I cannot see the tribes which rule the U.S.A., however, they are not invisible beings, meaning, lacking material substance, but are out of my physical sight or ability to socially access.

Could these tribes socially interact amongst themselves?

cheers.

unknownuser

PEACE YD

Could these tribes socially interact amongst themselves?

I would think so, what do you think, any ideas?

vincentia

quote PRIEST_BOKMEI (dhul)

And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord).
They all revere their Lord, high above them, and they do all that they are commanded.

According to these ayats you are mistaken. The moving creatures and the malaika are specific classes of beings and are apart from humans . The moving creatures and malaika, according to ayat 1650, do not disobey, that is, they do all that they are commanded. All means all.

So according to you 1649 EXCLUDES humans and jinns. Even though it says ALL THAT IS (Whatever is) . A very basic mistake and one you cant justify. There is NO exclusion clause in 1649 and ALL THAT IS means ALL THAT IS with no exclusion.

Apparatently with your lack of knowledge of the quran and the Arabic language you have never seen or studied verse 1315

walillahi yasjudu man f assamwti wal?ari a`an wakarhan wailaluhum bilhuduwwi wal?ali
Whatever beings there are in the heavens and the earth do prostrate/obey themselves to God,- with good-will or in spite of themselves so do their shadows in the morning and evenings.

Now conpare 1649 with 1315......

walillahi yasjudu ma f assamwti wama f al?ari
walillahi yasjudu man f assamwti wal?ari

This is basically the same as 1649 but with one important different. In 1649 it is referring to ALL THAT IS or Whatever is by the use of the arabic word ma which includes everything including all life forms

But in 1315 it uses the personal pronoun man which is used to refer to intelligent beings such as humans, jinns and angels.

man has all the same meanings as ma but because its a personal pronoun then instead of reading All THAT is, it now becomes All BEINGS, or instead of reading Whatever is it now becomes Whoever is

So it?s saying All Beings in heaven (angels etc) and All Beings on Earth (humans, jinns etc) obey God.

Given the meaning of 1315, it is impossible to add an exclusion clause EXCEPT HUMANS and JINNS...

So 1315 says HUMANS AND JINNS do obey God by the use of the arabic word yasujud the same as in 1649.

Anyone with intelligence can see that both 1649 AND 1315 is refferring to obeying Gods WILL which is something we ALL do both willingly or un-willingly. This would have a different meaning then obeying his WORD which is something we can obey or disobey.

Im sure you will try your hardest to twist and distort 1315 the way you twist and distord other verses in the quran. So give it you best shot and lets see what lengths you will goto dhul.

unknownuser

Apparatently with your lack of knowledge of the quran and the Arabic language you have never seen or studied verse 1315

You really shouldn't come to such...conjectural conclusions, you will only be disappointed in the end...

So according to you 1649 EXCLUDES humans and jinns. Even though it says ALL THAT IS (Whatever is) . A very basic mistake and one you cant justify. There is NO exclusion clause in 1649 and ALL THAT IS means ALL THAT IS with no exclusion.

And to Allah doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and on earth, whether moving (living) creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord).
They all revere their Lord, high above them, and they do all that they are commanded.

All, obviously, cannot include human beings , because humans do disobey Allah's commands, hence, this is why Allah, specifically, refers to daabatan and malaika in 1649-50 and not jinn/men, so as, to not contradict Himself. If your assertion were correct, then there would exist a contradiction/discrepancy in Al-Quran, for Allah, cannot say ALL things obey Him, knowing full well that...jinn and men do disobey, whereas, the daabatan and maliaka..do not.

Now conpare 1649 with 1315......

They all revere their Lord, high above them, and they do all that they are commanded.