Same sex relationships/ marriages
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I think that if homosexuality was an illness that God wouldn't hold you responsible for it. That would be like being punished for suffering depression or some other mental illness.
I can't quote right now were in the Quran it says that mentaly ill people whose judgment is deluded due to illness are not going to be punished for it. I am not saying that someone who is sick doesn't know at all what they are doing but in some instances it Illnes would greatly contribute to their judgment.
I don't think its an illnes and I don't think that you are born with it otherwise it would be unfair to say its a wrong act!!!
Thanks
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homosexuality is not an illness, we can't really judge as we not gay...
as far as reproduction, yes it's difficult with homosexuality...
but if you look at how the world is made, male + female, it's just logical for the two to connect, that's why there's only 2 genders... if God intended there would have been only 1, or 3, or 7...although i have nothing against them, i don't think they'll burn in hell as many seem to think, we are judged based on actions, if gays do productive things, if they treat everyone respectfully, if they uphold justice, why should they be looked at as bad people just because of their lifestyle?
maybe it's a choice, maybe they born like that, who knows, but you certainly can't force people to choose a sexuality, or to love someone
In the stand up comedy show "Bigger and Blacker", Chris Rocks tells some funny and thoughtprovoking things about medicine
"Doctors don't cure shit! They don't cure shit! The last disease doctors cured was polio, when's the last time you met someone with polio?"
"You think the government is gonna cure AIDS? NOO! They can't even cure athlete's foot!"
"The government curing AIDS? That's like Cadillac making a car that last for fifty years... and you know they can do it! But they ain't gonna do something that fucking dumb! Shit! They got metal on the space shuttle that can go around the moon and withstand temperatures up to 20,000 degrees. You mean to tell me you don't think they can make an El Dorado where the fucking bumper don't fall off?"
'doctors don't cure sh**, they just patch it up, get you to the next stop, so they can get more of your money'
'ain't no money in the cure, money's in the medicine, that's how a drug dealer makes his money, on a comeback' ;D
'hey doc i'm paralyzed whatcha got? why don't you take this chair and roll your a** around' P
'hey doc i'm blind whatcha got? why don't you take this dog and let him drag your blind a** around' Por one about gays 'gays in the military, don't let em in, don't let em in... hey, if they wanna fight let em fight, 'cause i aint fighting' D
my fav is one in 'never scared' ... 'gay marriage, ... gay people have the right to be miserable as everybody else' ;D
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'doctors don't cure sh**, they just patch it up, get you to the next stop, so they can get more of your money'
'ain't no money in the cure, money's in the medicine, that's how a drug dealer makes his money, on a comeback' ;D"A patient cured is a customer lost"
- Anonymous.
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"A patient cured is a customer lost"
- Anonymous.
such a sad way to look at it, keep people sick - to make money, sell them energy - to make money, sell them water - to make money, what's next, sell them air - to make money, charge them for breathing, for blinking, for walking, for existing...?
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If it was an illness it would be "curable". So far, no "cure" has ever been found, although ? as I'm sure you are aware ? there have been countless attempts.
And what makes you assume they don't?
Peace,
Respect.I meant illness as a problem in the subconsciousness.
The only doctor who could help them is a psychologist, God willing.A mother and a father have a daughter.
Daughter is a lesbian.
Why do I believe that she became a lesbian and that she wasn't born as such?
Because she didn't get homosexuality from dad's DNA nor from Mom's DNA.
So, where did she get it from and when?
What caused it?
What causes homosexuality?I do have a theory about it ....
Well, I'll explain later.
God Bless ya.Peace.
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Peace, Pel, and welcome. peace
Something I have often wondered about when people cite the story of Lot as "proof" that homosexuality is forbidden is the fact that it explicitly refers to men. So by that logic homosexuality between females should be ok, right?
Hi Leyna, you know the real answer to that? You won't like it. The reason is, lets face it, there are a few gender stereo types in the Quran, one of which is that men are the initiators of marriage and sex. So it whilst it sees male homosexuality and heterosexual prostitution as a danger, because men may inappropriately initiate gay sex with each other or prostitution with women, the Arabs who put our Quran to paper could not consieve of lesbianism as a moral risk. They did not see there as being a risk of women initiating sexual relationships with other women, not because they were pro-lesbian, but because they did not think women were capable of initiating a sexual act or relationship at all. If they thought of it as something with often happened, they would have definitely remembered to include a story about God sending fire and brimstone upon the island of Lesbos.
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I think that today's peoples have been hypnotised into considering homosexuality or heterosexuality as thing in itself and that people fall in one or other category, to which some add the bisexual category. That is exactly putting people in boxes. Anybody or almost anybody can be homosexual if he or she is willing to try it. Homosexuality has its attractiveness and there are many things that go with it that are not strictly sexual, but rather a combination of temperament, emotional make up, emotional history, mentnal make up, personal history, moral attitude and attitude in general towards life and mores. One who never tries or has an homosexual experience is far less likely to become homosexual than sombody who tries it out of curiosity. Of those I know plenty. Curiosity killed the cat. Curiosity is a very powerful push to have sex of whatever kind. So to say that all people called "homosexual" were born like that is completely false. It would also be false to say that none fo them were born so. Some, it seems, physiollogically are compelled to that. Whether they actualise it or not, is something else. It is nonsense that one is born hetero or homo or even bi, although bi would be closer to truth if we only have in mind the possibilities and capacity to enjoy. Sex can be enjoyed mostly any way if it is a matter of being capable of it leaving aside any mores, or moral consideration.
Muslims are not called to do anything they can or even anything pleasurable just because they can or because it is pleasurable. We are told that we were made different in order to know each other, in general we are made so, into species, into sexes, into peoples, so that we are helped in our way back to God. Sex is there to help us. It is not a prison. Any man, if he tries, may derive a lot of wisdom from being intimately bound to a woman and trying to live through her, through her eyes, and vice versa. It is a learning. With any other person, even same sex, we can learn and evolve a lot for our betterment also, although not necessarily nor even conveniently through sexual activity.
Sex, "hetero" or "homo", doesn't matter, is and has been considered as some kind of escape from pressures and stresses of other kinds, and in sex get buried a lot of trautmatic suffering and experiences that we do not even know of and which we proccess emotionally the best we are able to. For some people may be simpler than for others, but I bet most sexual conflicts stem from something else. To take one example, very straightforward and simple, take male children who from very early are soft, "feminine" cling to their mother because they do not like what other boys do or how they paly, like to dress up, be woman-like, because that is their natural temperament. Of course someone like that suffers very, very much, and is almost sure will in love with somebody on whom he can pour all those "feminine" sensibility and feelings that seem to be out of place. He will not even be able dress in a pretty dress or fluffy blouse or in a skirt and wear heardos as he would like and do for himself. Would it be a wonder that such a person should choose a "personality" to project and live with that whouldn't kill soul, his feeling, his sensitivity, his natural likes and dislikes?
I have put it very black and white, but environment gives a lot of reasons for many people to have emotional problems with sociological genders. And it doesn't get better, not in the west, I do not know about the east. Rules for males are even stricter than for females as far as those kinds of things are concerned. Even without being homos, men are immidiately suspected as such if they show some "feminine" streak. It may seem surprising that there have tradicitionally been more males homos the female. I think it is because they are marked much more ruthlessly. It is a hint of how highly the world has been regarding certain attitudes as more desirable than others. "Femininess" has not been desired, has been subordinated and supressed and the only way women have been able to push forward in society seems to have been by adopting the traits of dominance and unsensitivity, which of course are not naturally masculine -or feminine-, but have been so branded by societies through history.
We should reflect on those things, I think and in the meantime be conscious that a whoremonger is filth, even if homosexual, but that society has not been a model of acceptance of the "weird" precisely and that it has driven many innocent persons to great suffering and conflict. How those people have survived may not have been ideal, specially for them, but the right to survive comes first and any way choosing between being amputated of your sex or of your soul is not a palatable choice.
Other question, of course, are the "homos", that are so just out of lewdness, and of those, I am afraid, there are plenty. Lewdness is lewdness one way or the other. So I do not think it is homo or hetero, but purity or lack of it. And I think that is what we will be judged for. How much effort we have put in order to attain our full humanity to worship Him with the means He has given us. In principle, the opposite sex should be for the most reassuring and peacegiving arrangemente, but when the conditions are against one's most sincere endeavours mercilessly, one should be thankful if through whatever difficulties still we praise God.
Salaam
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Anybody or almost anybody can be homosexual if he or she is willing to try it. Homosexuality has its attractiveness and there are many things that go with it that are not strictly sexual, but rather a combination of temperament, emotional make up, emotional history, mentnal make up, personal history, moral attitude and attitude in general towards life and mores. One who never tries or has an homosexual experience is far less likely to become homosexual than sombody who tries it out of curiosity.
How does that make it any different than heterosexuality?
What about homosexuality in animals? Of which there are plenty of examples. Is this a natural inclination?
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I have not had many conversations with animals to know their histories or runarounds nor I hear people usually talk about animals experiences on that count. What I have seen is quite common. I nearly have a dog, but he runs awy from problems be they male or female. Seriously, I mean I do not know much about animals by myself. What I know not by myself is what I may pick up in books, articles, tv, etc., just anybody else may know.
As you may have noticed in the whole of my message, I do not make such a great difference between what may mislead by the hetero door or by the homo door. However, it is my observation that male homo contacts have a very strong pull. As the popular saying goes, those who try it, fall for it. I also find, that a proportion of female homo conducts come from giving up hope of finding understanding and support from males, no as much from being attracted by females, although, of course, one you get into it, it so happens.
However, I would hate to turn this into a sociolgical study or a discussion whose only object sould be to stamp at the end the haram or halal label. My purpose on writing the message I put was that we should go beyond labels and think more deeply that these questions for many people are very difficult, that everything to do with sexuality usually has a lot to do with other things, specially emotional life, which when not lived consciously, like in childhood, lies ununderstood and unassimilatd. That in anfancy and also later, but particularly in infancy we may sustain very deep wounds that retreat from the conscious and may rule our emotions and lives unrecognized and unacknowledged and may surface only, like the shoes of a drowned person, in sexual impulse. Also curious people with some other components may be led to live experiences that if they could know beforehand perhaps they wouldn't choose, but which once started, depending on different factors also, they may be uncapable or unwilling to undo, because what we do changes us. Then, of course there is the question of what we intend to do with our lives. For some may be simple , clear and manageable, for others may be clear but unmanageable, for others unclear complicated, painful and impossible to manage.
I find that this need to immediately jump to sin or not sin or haram or halal and to draw thick black lines between this and that (hetro, homo or whatever), as if they really existed, muddles issues and pushes still further back into the recessess of the mind the real ones. Of course to stamp halal or haram may be very useful in many cases. But in this, for the moment, as I see it, is going completely astray of any real understanding of personal issues for people for whom they create problems. That I mean when we are not talking about plain lewdness which obviously shouldn't rule us, but which is not a problem to recognize. If we fall for it, we fall kowingly, not because of birth or compulsion or whatever, we just want to fall because we like it and that is it. We should rather try to understand ourselves, know ourselves, help others understand themselves by listening, by being compatising, by putting us in their place, and lending support; and rule our lives instead of being ruled by what we do not grasp and pushes us and many times makes for much suffering.
Salaam
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Hi Leyna, you know the real answer to that? You won't like it. The reason is, lets face it, there are a few gender stereo types in the Quran, one of which is that men are the initiators of marriage and sex.
The Qur'an was revealed to a society that was extremely patriarchal, so of course that's reflected in the text. I don't have a problem with that at all; I only have a problem with people claiming that because something was being practiced in a particular manner by early Muslims, we have to practice it exactly like that nowadays.
You said "If it was an illness it would be "curable" but is this how "illness" is defined, i.e. a condition that is curable. ?
Not that I think of it as an "illness" but I do not think your statement is correct.Yeah, my reasoning was not very logical, you are right. Of course not every illness is curable.
I think what I had in the back of my mind when writing that was that there have been many attempts at "curing" homosexual people in past and present, and in most cases those attempts had a negative effect on the individuals in question.
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I think that if homosexuality was an illness that God wouldn't hold you responsible for it. That would be like being punished for suffering depression or some other mental illness.
I can't quote right now were in the Quran it says that mentaly ill people whose judgment is deluded due to illness are not going to be punished for it. I am not saying that someone who is sick doesn't know at all what they are doing but in some instances it Illnes would greatly contribute to their judgment.
I don't think its an illnes and I don't think that you are born with it otherwise it would be unfair to say its a wrong act!!!
Thanks
I think you are born with "it". I didn't choose to be heterosexual, it was overwhelming there. No effort or conditioning required. I went to an all boys school but I knew what I fancied.
Gay sex is repulsive to me, there is no way in hell someone could condition or "cure" me to that way. So why should the reverse be true.
The actual gay population (in uk) is like 1%, if it was conditioning/choice I'd expect it to be it be higher. I guess we will know in a decade or so if it grows as society gets more accepting.
I bet in Saudi (where you have death penalty for gays) it is also 1%.
Of course people are going to take my arguments and say I'm justifying paedophiles. brickwall
I feel sorry gay men; they get ridiculed by society and miss out a family life. Why would you choose that life unless the opposite was equally oppressive?
BTW, the Lot story is a pretty clear case of male rape by heterosexuals, nothing about happy gay couples wanting equal rights. Nobody still has an answer for why Lot offered up his daughters? There is clue in Lot's actions.
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The Qur'an was revealed to a society that was extremely patriarchal, so of course that's reflected in the text. I don't have a problem with that at all; I only have a problem with people claiming that because something was being practiced in a particular manner by early Muslims, we have to practice it exactly like that nowadays.
Peace,
Respect.We do have to take lessons from the previous examples, do you agree with that?
After all, that is why Qur'an contains them.God knows Best.
Peace. -
Of course people are going to take my arguments and say I'm justifying paedophiles. brickwall
What does homosexuality have to do with paedophilia? ???
BTW, the Lot story is a pretty clear case of male rape by heterosexuals, nothing about happy gay couples wanting equal rights.
That's how I understand it as well.
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We do have to take lessons from the previous examples, do you agree with that?
After all, that is why Qur'an contains them.Yes, but we do have to understand them in the light of the circumstances of the time of revelation.
For example, the Qur'an brought about some improvements of women's rights. But if we apply those things nowadays exactly as they were applied back then, that would lead to less rights and discrimination, and we would ultimately achieve the opposite of the intended goal. Just take a look at the laws in some of the more conservative Muslim countries and you know what I mean.
The Qur'an also contains verses telling us how to deal with slaves. Does that mean we should still practice slavery? Of course not. It means that slavery was a reality back then that had to be addressed.
I'm sure you get my drift ? peace
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Peace Leyna
What does homosexuality have to do with paedophilia? Huh?
I think in both cases it is something that is not brought about by conditioning or if it is, it is the type of conditioning that the self has no controle of. I don't think a homosexual or someone attracted to children or someone attracted to animals sexually wanted turn out that way. So perhaps in this way homosexuality and paedophilia are related.
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Peace Leyna
Yes, but we do have to understand them in the light of the circumstances of the time of revelation.
For example, the Qur'an brought about some improvements of women's rights. But if we apply those things nowadays exactly as they were applied back then, that would lead to less rights and discrimination, and we would ultimately achieve the opposite of the intended goal. Just take a look at the laws in some of the more conservative Muslim countries and you know what I mean.
The Qur'an also contains verses telling us how to deal with slaves. Does that mean we should still practice slavery? Of course not. It means that slavery was a reality back then that had to be addressed.
I'm sure you get my drift ?
This is a very important point for me in studying the Quran.
Slavery is a good example to explain. Slavery existed, it was regulated by Quran in what seems to be different stages, with the ultimate being that it was abolished.
It is not so much a matter of should we or shouldn't we practise slavery today. Anyone who accepts the Quran objectively, imo, would have to say "NO". The more important point is that if there is a society today that practices slavery, the Quran can guide such a society out of the darkness of slavery to the light of freedom in the stages that are required for this to happen successfully.
I have found this principle to be true for a variety of topics in the quran. These include sadaqat, riba, salat and others. The topic under discussion may be another example, but I haven't looked into it.
Imraan
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Yes, but we do have to understand them in the light of the circumstances of the time of revelation.
For example, the Qur'an brought about some improvements of women's rights. But if we apply those things nowadays exactly as they were applied back then, that would lead to less rights and discrimination, and we would ultimately achieve the opposite of the intended goal. Just take a look at the laws in some of the more conservative Muslim countries and you know what I mean.
The Qur'an also contains verses telling us how to deal with slaves. Does that mean we should still practice slavery? Of course not. It means that slavery was a reality back then that had to be addressed.
I'm sure you get my drift ? peace
But the difference is that whilst the spirit of the text is very much against slavery, with the freeing of slaves a moral virtue, it is wholly and aggressively hostile to homosexuality both explicitly and in the spirit of the writing. The theme of the writing is that of a moral crusade which sees gayness as an unmitigated evil!
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But the difference is that whilst the spirit of the text is very much against slavery, with the freeing of slaves a moral virtue, it is wholly and aggressively hostile to homosexuality both explicitly and in the spirit of the writing. The theme of the writing is that of a moral crusade which sees gayness as an unmitigated evil!
Interesting how differently people read a text. I can't see that in there at all. The "aggressiveness" and moral condemnation you mention is imho aimed at rape, i.e. using sex as a weapon, and also at people who have lost all sense of morals, mercy, love. I honestly can't see that it should be referring to peaceful, loving homosexual relationships.
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I think in both cases it is something that is not brought about by conditioning or if it is, it is the type of conditioning that the self has no controle of. I don't think a homosexual or someone attracted to children or someone attracted to animals sexually wanted turn out that way. So perhaps in this way homosexuality and paedophilia are related.
I still think you can't compare. Someone who is homosexual basically desires the same things heterosexual people desire ? love, companionship, connecting with another person on a mental, spiritual and physical level. Those things, obviously, are not possible with a minor or an animal. Wanting to have sex with a child means you are desiring something that will cause damage to the other person, this is clearly not the case when desiring a person of the same sex.