WHO, IS QURAN TO BE RECITED TO...ALLAH OR MEN?

Idris

peace, SHM

if I were out in the middle of nowhere and came across a copy of the Quran and lets even say a copy of the Bible along with that, how will I know to recite surah 1 in my ritual prayer? do I just guess? the fact is if I had to recite sura 1 in my ritual prayer as a necessity to fulfill it then the Qu'ran would have said so, or do I need to come across a copy of Bukhari to know that? or perhaps the Rashad Khalifa website? btw I thought that you believed the ritual salat was only to be performed 3 times a day, its interesting that when I read the Bible that David did so

peace

Satan_Hates_Me

Idris

peace, SHM

if I were out in the middle of nowhere and came across a copy of the Quran and lets even say a copy of the Bible along with that, how will I know to recite surah 1 in my ritual prayer? do I just guess? the fact is if I had to recite sura 1 in my ritual prayer as a necessity to fulfill it then the Qu'ran would have said so, or do I need to come across a copy of Bukhari to know that? or perhaps the Rashad Khalifa website? btw I thought that you believed the ritual salat was only to be performed 3 times a day, its interesting that when I read the Bible that David did so

peace

i understand your argument. But look at it this way.
IF i come across a copy of the koran in the desert and it said, "to give in charity". But i dont know what "charity" is, is it wrong to seek the defintion of charity outside the koran to know what "charity" is? No. because the deifnition of charity existed before the koran.

That is the same with salaat. GOD tells us to observe it, But not what it is. There is no wrong in learning what it is outside the koran.

The fact is the absence of detials for salat doesnt testify it is not a ritual prayer. Why? Because there are several other things beside salat that are not detailed in the Koran yet you followed it without trying "re-defing" terms, That is very subjective. And please dont quote the same verse of "fully-detailed" because i explained how those verse are used out of context.

People are confusing what salat is with the laws in the koran. It is llike confusing what a car is with how to build one. There are two different things. What salat is (a ritual prayer) have nothing to do with laws in the Koran. Salat was already define before the Koran.

Satan_Hates_Me

I asked you to go to Al-Quran and find me the ayat which contains the word ritual, so, where is it?. You asserted that..."everything in Al-Quran is a ritual" and that there is a "ritual salat".

this is pointless. look at the definiton of ritual again.
ritual = 1. established formal behavior an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion

AH... Like The Rock says "It doesnt matter" if ritual is in the koran or not, all the laws and commands we humans observe through the koran are "an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion"

For example, salat. WHAT EVER YOU DEFINE SALAT AS, it is done at several times(11114), at specfic times (4103) DAILY! IT IS A RITUAL. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS A "established and prescribed pattern of observance."

I know what you are thinking. You have link the term "ritual" with pegan custom. so now to you ritual is a "satanic" term. BUT by definition, salat is a ritual. YOU CANOT DISPROVE THAT. IT DOESNT MATTER IF IT IS IN THE KORAN OR NOT, by defintion alone, a salat is a ritual, plain and simply.

Now, bring your convincing proof and find me the ayat(s) which backs up your assertions.

i just did but here it is again because you will deny it.
For example, salat. WHAT EVER YOU DEFINE SALAT AS, it is done at several times(11114), at specfic times (4103) DAILY! IT IS A RITUAL. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS A "established and prescribed pattern of observance."

Now, can you provide the Quranic evidence for your claims? a simple yes or no will suffice.

read the large fonts again if you are doubtful.

Then we will discuss points

How was Quran revealed.
What is meant by fully detailed.
What is meant by spiritual.

i luv how you skip and quickly summarize these questions to follow a argument you cannot win with the defintion of a ritual and how salat is a ritual by plain defintion.

But anyway....please explain why you subjectively select what is spiritual guidance in the Koran and what is not spiritual guidance (althought the koran doesnt even use that term, only those who deny salat)

Also explain why you abuse verse which states "fully-detailed" by subjective selecting what is fully-detail.

And please explain why you deny verse 2532
{2532} Those who disbelieved said, "Why did not the Quran come through him all at once?" We have released it to you gradually, in order to fix it in your memory. We have recited it in a specific sequence

Also explain why you baliant deny that salat is a ritual although i prove it by definition and koran verses that it is. After you deny and present "pretty" but baseless argument, then you can discuss how salat is not a commitment but a link to the creator maintain daily.

unknownuser

SHM

this is pointless. look at the definiton of ritual again.
ritual = 1. established formal behavior an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion. Also explain why you baliant deny that salat is a ritual although i prove it by definition and koran verses that it is.

No, on the contrary, it is the absolute point. I know what Merriam-Webster says, what I want from you is what Allah says. Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done. If you cannot do this then have the fear of Allah and the intellectual honesty/maturity to admit that you can't and retract your assertion. For you to claim something is from Allah and then you not produce the ayats to substabtiate that is to set yourself up as a god along with Allah...now, do you really want to do that?

AH... Like The Rock says "It doesnt matter" if ritual is in the koran or not, all the laws and commands we humans observe through the koran are "an established and prescribed pattern of observance, for example, in a religion"

I'm not the least bit interested in what the Rock says, but I am interested in what Allah says. So, I ask you again, where does Allah use the term ritual in His Quran, relative to the believers, and how is this ritual performed?

I know what you are thinking.

No, you don't, unless of course, you can now read minds.

luv how you skip and quickly summarize these questions to follow a argument you cannot win with the defintion of a ritual and how salat is a ritual by plain defintion.

I'm not skipping anything and don't worry...I will address the rest of your assertions as well, however, I prefer to deal with an item at a time, so as, to avoid clutter and underdeveloped repsonses.

Please contain your emtionalism though.

Satan_Hates_Me

PRIEST_BOKMEI

this is pointless indeed. YOU completly ignore the proof i present above. I think there is not one single person in here you can deny that salat is not a ritual by true defintion. Only you "priest."

Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done.

sometime i wonder who you are trying to prove, me or yourself. Look at this ridiuculos comment. Please...please pay attention, i will spell it out again.

Firstly, stop with this "show me the exact word" argument. Why? It is pointless and "played out." I can use the same argument with you regarding where in the koran does it say "spiritual guidance" only. The koran does even say that, so it is pointless for me to "demand" that exact word from you.

Secondly, salat is a ritual by (1) plain defintion and (2) the koran and (3) its charateristics.

Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done.

is the exact word ritual in the Koran? NO
Is salat a ritual? YES
Do the word ritual need to be in the Koran to prove salat is a ritual? NO
So why salat is a ritual when the word "ritual" is not in the Koran? Because it is a ritual by definition.
There are many words that are not in the Koran, but that doesnt mean they dont apply.

"Priest" if your argument is that salat is not a ritual because the word "ritual" is not in the Koran, it is a baseless argument that you CANNOT win. Why? Because salat is a ritual by true defintion of the word just like the koran is a book by pure defintion of the word "book." GOD does need to say the the koran is a book, because common sense will tell you it is a book by pure defintion of the word.

This is truely pointless, you are the only one i have debate with that will complete deny this simpe fact. I showed you with factual information of the word and koranic verse how salat is a ritual. It doesnt matter what you define salat as.

I'm not skipping anything and don't worry...I will address the rest of your assertions as well, however, I prefer to deal with an item at a time, so as, to avoid clutter and underdeveloped repsonses.

Yes please do address the issues i raise like

Your subjective use of "fully-detial"
Balaint abuse of Koran verses for your objective
Baliant use of koran verses OUT OF CONTEXT
DENYing the baliant ritual charateristic of salat, making it a ritual by pure defintion.
The very subjective argument of "everything is in the Koran"
Baliant denial of verse 2532, that Muhammed didnt have the complete koran to preach to his people.
Subjective descriptions of the Koran purpose to subjectvely select what is spiritual and what is not spiritual in the Koran
Baliant assertions that the Koran is "spiritual guidance" only book
**inconsistency within your argument

Please contain your emtionalism though.

well thanks for the advice. Can you please contain the skipping of questions and jump straight to the issue with you next post. please. I am tried of answering your same question over and over......and over...and over....and over.....

unknownuser

SHM

this is pointless indeed. YOU completly ignore the proof i present above.

Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

You've proved nothing. Anyway, per the above ayat, I repeat Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done.

I
think there is not one single person in here you can deny that salat is not a ritual by true defintion. Only you "priest."

Tell you what, why don't you ask them and see what they say.

sometime i wonder who you are trying to prove, me or yourself. Look at this ridiuculos comment. Please...please pay attention, i will spell it out again.

None of the above, I'm simply asking you to prove what you assert. I'm lost for words as to what about this simple request you have difficulty grasping.

Firstly, stop with this "show me the exact word" argument. Why? It is pointless and "played out." I can use the same argument with you regarding where in the koran does it say "spiritual guidance" only. The koran does even say that, so it is pointless for me to "demand" that exact word from you.

Quote
Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done.

is the exact word ritual in the Koran? NO

Well, that is one issue resolved, now, that wasn't so bad was it?

Is salat a ritual? YES. Do the word ritual need to be in the Koran to prove salat is a ritual? NO. So why salat is a ritual when the word "ritual" is not in the Koran? Because it is a ritual by definition.

a. How can salat be a ritual, yet have no such word to identify it as such, can be found in Allah's Quran? Is Allah impoverished of words?

b. Does Allah say that salat is a ritual....yes or no?

"Priest" if your argument is that salat is not a ritual because the word "ritual" is not in the Koran, it is a baseless argument that you CANNOT win. Why? Because salat is a ritual by true defintion of the word just like the koran is a book by pure defintion of the word "book." GOD does need to say the the koran is a book, because common sense will tell you it is a book by pure defintion of the word.

You're saying that salat is ritual by definition is altogether meaningless unless you can go to Al-Quran and provide the evidence for such an assertion. If salat were a ritual by definition as you claim, then Allah would have defined it a such...did He do this? If so, please post the ayats where He did this.

Btw, Allah, has defined his Quran as a Book

A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know

This is truely pointless, you are the only one i have debate with that will complete deny this simpe fact. I showed you with factual information of the word and koranic verse how salat is a ritual. It doesnt matter what you define salat as.

The only fact which you've presented to date is...there is no such word as ritual in Al-Quran.

Quote
I'm not skipping anything and don't worry...I will address the rest of your assertions as well, however, I prefer to deal with an item at a time, so as, to avoid clutter and underdeveloped repsonses.

Yes please do address the issues i raise like

Your subjective use of "fully-detial"
Balaint abuse of Koran verses for your objective
Baliant use of koran verses OUT OF CONTEXT
DENYing the baliant ritual charateristic of salat, making it a ritual by pure defintion.
The very subjective argument of "everything is in the Koran"
Baliant denial of verse 2532, that Muhammed didnt have the complete koran to preach to his people.
Subjective descriptions of the Koran purpose to subjectvely select what is spiritual and what is not spiritual in the Koran
Baliant assertions that the Koran is "spiritual guidance" only book
**inconsistency within your argument

As soon as you show us the ayats where Allah, defines salat as a ritual, well, then we can move on to the other items, but not before. If you cannot find any ayats where Allah defines salat as a ritual, then simply admit this and let's move on. In rendering your response, take in to full consideration these ayats and definition

Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.
Or have they taken for worship (other) gods besides him? Say, "Bring your convincing proof this is the Message of those with me and the Message of those before me." But most of them know not the Truth, and so turn away.

2543 Seest thou such a one as taketh for his god his own passion (or impulse)? Couldst thou be a disposer of affairs for him?

Main Entry a GOD a person or thing of supreme value a powerful person or ruler assuming the word always refers to a non-man is an error, as the Greeks referred to many with authority as Theos . A man od such superior qualiites that he seems like a diety to the other people.

When you/anyone, ascribes something to Allah and then cannot provide the convincing proof i.e. ayats from His Quran to confirm your assertion, then you/they guilty of the following things

a. make a liar of Allah.

b. take yourself as a god.

c. mislead yourself.

d. mislead others.

well thanks for the advice. Can you please contain the skipping of questions and jump straight to the issue with you next post. please. I am tried of answering your same question over and over......and over...and over....and over.....

We'll move on once we resolve the issue under discussion. The issue of salat is not yet fully resolved.

Idris

peace, SHM

i understand your argument. But look at it this way.
IF i come across a copy of the koran in the desert and it said, "to give in charity". But i dont know what "charity" is, is it wrong to seek the defintion of charity outside the koran to know what "charity" is? No. because the deifnition of charity existed before the koran.

your kinda right, you will only get the human definition of charity though, which is probably giving to somebody in need or that is poor, I believe the Quranic concept of contribution is not only donations to the poor but devotion of your whole self to the betterment of society of everybody in it

That is the same with salaat. GOD tells us to observe it, But not what it is. There is no wrong in learning what it is outside the koran.

yes but I think that the Quran must be looked at to define what salat is as a whole, as I showed was possible with charity, see I think prayer is only one part of solaa which encompasses many things, while you see the aspect of solaa as prayer encompassing every other definition or part of solaa

The fact is the absence of detials for salat doesnt testify it is not a ritual prayer. Why? Because there are several other things beside salat that are not detailed in the Koran yet you followed it without trying "re-defing" terms, That is very subjective. And please dont quote the same verse of "fully-detailed" because i explained how those verse are used out of context.

I don't even use the fully detailed argument anymore, I gave it up a long time ago, infact I don't even use the usual "Qu'ran alone" stance, but charity is different because there is not a particular set of steps to follow such as in a ritual prayer, giving the money to the people who need it is all that is required of charity, calling out to God in need/want/etc. is all that is required of prayer, a ritual charity would include something like "you have to take the wallet out of your right pocket, and pay 2.5 percent of whatever is in there to a man named Mr. Muhammad who lives on green street and so on", if we were commanded to do a ritual prayer it would simultaneously tell us the movements, words, when to say what words, etc. and not leave how to perform it up to one's interpretation of conjectural history such as the sects do

People are confusing what salat is with the laws in the koran. It is llike confusing what a car is with how to build one. There are two different things. What salat is (a ritual prayer) have nothing to do with laws in the Koran. Salat was already define before the Koran.

yes the definition of solaa was well defined before the Quran hence no questions of "what is solaa" but if it were a ritual prayer shouldn't we see at least one question somewhere asking "how do I perform alsolaa", also how come "ablution" is made very clear how to perform and we are told "when" to uphold solaa among other things but the number of rakas, what words to say, when to say it, etc. wasn't made clear such as ablution and when to perform it were?

Satan_Hates_Me

Idris

yes but I think that the Quran must be looked at to define what salat is as a whole, as I showed was possible with charity, see I think prayer is only one part of solaa which encompasses many things, while you see the aspect of solaa as prayer encompassing every other definition or part of solaa

this is an excellent point. the focus of solaa. it is like the story of the four blind men and the elephant.

My theory on salat is this. Salat is a tree.

the roots = maintaining an constant awareness, rememberance, and a link with your creator just like the tree roots constantly link to the ground to gain nutritions

the crunk = the ritual prayer

the leaves = assembing with others

the fruits = the benfits including commintment, protection from evil etc.

people who are "re-define" salat are just focusing on one aspect of it, either the leaves, the crunk, the roots, or the fruits. They say salat is not the crunk, just the roots, or they will say salat is just the fruits. Each do have a good understanding of one aspect of it, but rejects other aspects which is wrong.

yes the definition of solaa was well defined before the Quran hence no questions of "what is solaa" but if it were a ritual prayer shouldn't we see at least one question somewhere asking "how do I perform alsolaa", also how come "ablution" is made very clear how to perform and we are told "when" to uphold solaa among other things but the number of rakas, what words to say, when to say it, etc. wasn't made clear such as ablution and when to perform it were?

But questions were indeed asked including those report in words attributed to Muhammed. Plus GOd baliantly link the acts of bowing and protrating with worshipping and submission. (2125, 343, 2226, 264, 3212, 4829) Descirbing the two major movments of salat.

{3212} If only you could see the guilty when they bow down their heads before their Lord "Our Lord, now we have seen and we have heard. Send us back and we will be righteous. Now we have attained certainty."

Idris

peace, SHM

this is an excellent point. the focus of solaa. it is like the story of the four blind men and the elephant.

My theory on salat is this. Salat is a tree.

the roots = maintaining an constant awareness, rememberance, and a link with your creator just like the tree roots constantly link to the ground to gain nutritions

the crunk = the ritual prayer

the leaves = assembing with others

the fruits = the benfits including commintment, protection from evil etc.

people who are "re-define" salat are just focusing on one aspect of it, either the leaves, the crunk, the roots, or the fruits. They say salat is not the crunk, just the roots, or they will say salat is just the fruits. Each do have a good understanding of one aspect of it, but rejects other aspects which is wrong.

so I guess the only difference between us is that we disagree on whether the fact ritual prayer is part of solaa or not, I happen to go with the Quranic context of the word solaa as being the biggest proof it is not a ritual prayer, I'll gather all the verses on it (such as 95, 911, 1187, 2241, etc.) that I believe negate solaa as being defined as ritual prayer, but then there are other Quran verses which make me believe that ritual prayer is unQuranic and I can present those to you as well when I get to gathering them

But questions were indeed asked including those report in words attributed to Muhammed. Plus GOd baliantly link the acts of bowing and protrating with worshipping and submission. (2125, 343, 2226, 264, 3212, 4829) Descirbing the two major movments of salat.

{3212} If only you could see the guilty when they bow down their heads before their Lord "Our Lord, now we have seen and we have heard. Send us back and we will be righteous. Now we have attained certainty."

ruku and sujood whether they mean humble and submit or bow and prostrate are not physical, nabudu means serve

unknownuser

PEACE IDRIS

I'll gather all the verses on it (such as 95, 911, 1187, 2241, etc.) that I believe negate solaa as being defined as ritual prayer, but then there are other Quran verses which make me believe that ritual prayer is unQuranic and I can present those to you as well when I get to gathering them

In that, Al-Quran cannot contradict or even be contrary to itself, solaa, cannot be a ritual, because the word ritual itself doesn't even exist in Al-Quran. Again, although SHM is abhorred to accept Allah's words, Allah, emphatically, states that His Quran is fully detailed, hence, where are the full details for this imagined ritual? To say that this argument is "played out" is absolutely astounding to me, in that, no arguement from Al-Quran, can ever be played out? To say any part of/argument from Al-Quran is played is out, is to literally forsake Al-Quran...but, wasn't that predicted to happen according to Al-Quran that, it would be forsaken?

Satan_Hates_Me

PRIEST_BOKMEI

this is indeed pointless

Your assertion is that there exists a ritual salat in Al-Quran and it is to be done, fine, however, if that is your position, then you must go to Allah's Quran and produce the ayats(s) which show the term ritual and that it is to be done.

I guess you believe that the word ritual need to be next to the word "solaa" to prove that salat is a ritual by prue defintion and charateristics. This is nonsense!

Do you honestly believe that! Do you think that GOD need to say the word ritual so it can be define as one!

Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which ye have no knowledge.

Did God need to list all the lies people will say about him so we can determine what is a lie and what is not?!?!
Did God need to list all the "shameful deeds" for us to determine what is and what is not?!?!

is the exact word ritual in the Koran? NO

Well, that is one issue resolved, now, that wasn't so bad was it?

So why are you asking the same questions over and over

Now i understand. You are avioding my argumetn because you have no response.

Does Allah say that salat is a ritual....yes or no?

No. God does use the term "ritual" everytime salat is mention. nor does He have to. The charateristics of salat make it a ritual!

IF you ask me that same question again....my head will explode ops

The only fact which you've presented to date is...there is no such word as ritual in Al-Quran.

so why ask that dumb question over and over

As soon as you show us the ayats where Allah, defines salat as a ritual, well, then we can move on to the other items, but not before.

the funny thing is, the issue i raise, especially about your subjective selection and abuse of veres have nothing to do with the term "ritual". You are just avioding the questions.

When you/anyone, ascribes something to Allah and then cannot provide the convincing proof i.e. ayats from His Quran to confirm your assertion, then you/they guilty of the following things

Proof comes from creation as well. I can prove the God posses infinite knowledge without the Koran. one needs consistency in the arguments. If i say salast is something, i need to prove it in at least three different ways. i can prove salat is what it is in several ways, not just the koran alone.

We'll move on once we resolve the issue under discussion. The issue of salat is not yet fully resolved.

be honest with yourself, you dont want to resolve this issue. Want just want to "kick up dust" and cause "fitna"

Satan_Hates_Me

Idris

so I guess the only difference between us is that we disagree on whether the fact ritual prayer is part of solaa or not, I happen to go with the Quranic context of the word solaa as being the biggest proof it is not a ritual prayer, I'll gather all the verses on it (such as 95, 911, 1187, 2241, etc.) that I believe negate solaa as being defined as ritual prayer, but then there are other Quran verses which make me believe that ritual prayer is unQuranic and I can present those to you as well when I get to gathering them

my issue with this is the it is inconsistent. The way i try to determine present a case, i try to prove it in several ways. to find consistency in all inclluding historical proof, scripture, koran, etc. i personally believe that all resources must be use to determine or develop a definition.

I am not against those who say "koran only" but i am against those who say "koran only and nothing else". GOD testify that history, previous scriptures, and creation can be use as sources of information and valueable information (297, 66, 2164). consistency and context are curcial issue when developing meaning for koranic concepts.

ruku and sujood whether they mean humble and submit or bow and prostrate are not physical, nabudu means serve

this argument is another baseless argument. we know ruku and sujood do indeed mean bow and prostrate. People simply "intrepert" it to mean something else. For example, in verse 4829

Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises those among them who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense.

How can sujoob mean anythign else. what ever way you try to "intrepret" sujood, this vrese baliantly state that the believer got marks on their faces from bowing.

YankeeDoodle

SHM,

How can sujoob mean anythign else. what ever way you try to "intrepret" sujood, this vrese baliantly state that the believer got marks on their faces from bowing.

My question would be

the marks come from prostration or bowing?
2.Do you mean physical marks on their foreheads or faces??

cheer.

Satan_Hates_Me

SHM,

How can sujoob mean anythign else. what ever way you try to "intrepret" sujood, this vrese baliantly state that the believer got marks on their faces from bowing.

My question would be

the marks come from prostration or bowing?
2.Do you mean physical marks on their foreheads or faces??

cheer.

lol lol
You-all use the same baseless arguments.
Yankee, does it really matter. Does where the marks are located on the face prove the sujood *doesnot meant protrating.!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can indeed protrate and get marks on my entire face, especially if i am protrating on grass!!!

the marks come from prostration or bowing?

the verse says "Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. "

Do you mean physical marks on their foreheads or faces?

the verse said FACE! isnt the forehead a part of the FACE!?!?
give it up, this is a baseless argument. lol

YankeeDoodle

SHM,

SHM wroteI can indeed protrate and get marks on my entire face, especially if i am protrating on grass!!!

No a single example is unqualified.I am trying to ascertain and collect datas to see how many muslim people in this world has marks on their forehead,nose cheeks,mouths,lips to confirm this verse that the marks of prostration should be on their face.

Now because this subject is not new ie about marks on their faces ,I was given an opportunity to do a survey years ago when I was still a muslim on this subject and the best place was in Mecca during the Hajj season of DhulHijja.

My finding confirms only a few pilgrims had dark marks of abrasion on their forehead ,prolly due to head banging against the floor but the rest of their faces Nil marks of abrasion.

So your point about marks on their faces does not hold any weight.It is meant to be something else and not physical marks.

Cheers.

Satan_Hates_Me

PRIEST_BOKMEI

gain, although SHM is abhorred to accept Allah's words, Allah, emphatically, states that His Quran is fully detailed, hence, where are the full details for this imagined ritual?

how about you stop abuse the verse for a change and use it in context. that is what is "played out" not GOD arguemtnt, but people, like you Priest, played out subjective, out of context arguments.

Satan_Hates_Me

SHM,

SHM wroteI can indeed protrate and get marks on my entire face, especially if i am protrating on grass!!!

No a single example is unqualified.I am trying to ascertain and collect datas to see how many muslim people in this world has marks on their forehead,nose cheeks,mouths,lips to confirm this verse that the marks of prostration should be on their face.

Now because this subject is not new ie about marks on their faces ,I was given an opportunity to do a survey years ago when I was still a muslim on this subject and the best place was in Mecca during the Hajj season of DhulHijja.

My finding confirms only a few pilgrims had dark marks of abrasion on their forehead ,prolly due to head banging against the floor but the rest of their faces Nil marks of abrasion.

So your point about marks on their faces does not hold any weight.It is meant to be something else and not physical marks.

Cheers.

First of all....i can "claim" i did a survey too with opposite result. SHOW ME THE PROOF!

Also, the face INCLUDES the forehead

face= 1. front of head the front of the human head, where the eyes, nose, face mouth, chin, cheeks, and forehead are
http//encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/face.html

Now i dont believe you "conducted" a survey. but even if you did, you probably conducted it wrong. Why? because you some isolate the forehead as a seperate element from the human face. IT IS THE FACE!!!!!

So your survey prove nothing except you dont know what a face is wink

So your point about marks on their faces does not hold any weight.It is meant to be something else and not physical marks.

you cannot be serious. if i said "i got marks on my leg from kicking". does that mean "kicking" doesnot mean "kicking" if only the marks are on my knee??!!! BE rational please. You are looking hard for excuses to deny.

hafeez_kazi

Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer) seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. ON THEIR FACES ARE THEIR MARKS (being) the TRACES OF THEIR PROSTRATION. 4829

In this verse there is no FOREHEAD and PRAYERS and these words are added in the translation just to highlight the importance of SUJUD and astray the Muslims from the right path.

TARAA -HUM RUKKAc (AN) SUJJAD (AN)
You see them in humbleness and prostrating

Is it not surprising that the prophet never saw them praying but saw them only bowing and prostrating

SEMAA -HUM FE WUJOH -HIM MIN 'ATHAR AS- SUJOD
Their LOOKS on their FACES is from the EFFECTS of their SUBMITTING

The word used in the verse is WUJOH and there is no way that marks will be created on the face by just prostration. I have been praying for so many years but no sign of SUJOOD MARKS has either appeared on my face or on my forehead.

Charity is for Fuqara (the poor), who in Allah's Cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land (for trade or work). The one who knows them not, thinks that they are rich because of their modesty. YOU MAY KNOW THEM BY THEIR MARK, they do not beg of people at all. And whatever you spend in good, surely Allah knows it well. 2273

What MARK is the BEGGAR carrying on his FACE, to be IDENTIFIED that he is POOR
.
BUT YOU CAN KNOW WHETHER HE IS POOR BY HIS EXPRESSION, LOOKS, AND APPEARANCE

And betwixt the twain there will be a veil, and, on the heights will be men RECOGNISING THEM ALL BY THEIR MARKS, and they will cry unto the fellows of the Garden; peace be unto you! They will not have entered it yet, while they shall be longing. 2273

WHAT WILL BE THE MARKS OF THE PEOPLE OF THE HELL?

THOSE WHO WILL BE IN HELL WILL BE RECOGNISED BY THEIR EXPRESSIONS ON THEIR FACES CAUSED BY THE PAINFUL TORMENT OF HELL.

THE FOREHEAD

On the day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of hell and with it will be branded their FOREHEADS their flanks and their backs "this is the (treasure) which ye buried for yourselves taste ye then the (treasures) ye buried!" 935

Then when the twain had submitted themselves and he had prostrated him upon his FOREHEAD. 37103

Allah has used the word FOREHEAD twice and could have used thrice but He did not because He did not mean it.

It is FACE and cannot be FOREHEAD.

Thanks

unknownuser

SHM

Priest bok Mei I asked you to go to Al-Quran and find me the ayat which contains the word ritual, so, where is it?. You asserted that..."everything in Al-Quran is a ritual" and that there is a "ritual salat". Now, bring your convincing proof and find me the ayat(s) which backs up your assertions. I gave you, last post, the dictionary definitions for a ritual. Now, can you provide the Quranic evidence for your claims? a simple yes or no will suffice.

SHM is the exact word ritual in the Koran? NO

Preist Bok Mei Does Allah say that salat is a ritual....yes or no?

SHM No.

God does not use the term "ritual" everytime salat is mention. nor does He have to. The charateristics of salat make it a ritual!

You are very interesting. You admit that there is no such word as ritual in Al-Quran and then you go on to admit that there is no ayat which labels salaa as a ritual, yet, you still want to call salaa a ritual even though Allah, The Almighty Himself, doesn't say any such thing...that is bold.

You need to consider this ayat again

Say the things that my Lord hath indeed made haram are shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to Allah, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.

Main Entry KNOW be convinced or certain of.

Main Entry KNOWLEDGE the fact or condition of knowing something with familiarity gained through experience or association.

Proof comes from creation as well. I can prove the God posses infinite knowledge without the Koran. one needs consistency in the arguments. If i say salast is something, i need to prove it in at least three different ways. i can prove salat is what it is in several ways, not just the koran alone.

All that is required to prove what you say is from Allah is...Al-Quran;

Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear proofs of guidance and the criterion... in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

Given this ayat then and your above admissions, there is no absolutely no way for you to prove salaa is a ritual, hence, your arguement is extinguished and the matter resolved, that is, salaa, is not a ritual. For you to continue to argue that salaa is ritual and a command from Allah, will only make you look silly at this point.

Next arguement

Is, Al-Quran, fully detailed?

how about you stop abuse the verse for a change and use it in context. that is what is "played out" not GOD arguemtnt, but people, like you Priest, played out subjective, out of context arguments.

6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

111 A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things)

1854 We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude but man is, in most things, contentious.

413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;

4144 Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes) They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"

So, is it your still your position that, Allah's arguement is played out and His Quran is not fully detailed? Is this your position...yes or no?

Satan_Hates_Me

hafeez kazi

who said the words prayers or forehead was in the vese

{4829}Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises those among them who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense.

Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer) seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. ON THEIR FACES ARE THEIR MARKS (being) the TRACES OF THEIR PROSTRATION. 4829

In this verse there is no FOREHEAD and PRAYERS and these words are added in the translation just to highlight the importance of SUJUD and astray the Muslims from the right path.

TARAA -HUM RUKKAc (AN) SUJJAD (AN)
You see them in humbleness and prostrating

Is it not surprising that the prophet never saw them praying but saw them only bowing and prostrating

SEMAA -HUM FE WUJOH -HIM MIN 'ATHAR AS- SUJOD
Their LOOKS on their FACES is from the EFFECTS of their SUBMITTING

The word used in the verse is WUJOH and there is no way that marks will be created on the face by just prostration. I have been praying for so many years but no sign of SUJOOD MARKS has either appeared on my face or on my forehead.

of course you no have marks on your face. The veres did refer to you, but the believer MUHAMMED SAW. NOt you. CONTEXT PEOPLE, context is important.
Muslims today use something call "prayer rug" to prayer on, elimanting all chances of marks on the face. Please remember face is simply the front of the head, not the cheeks as many believe.

TARAA -HUM RUKKAc (AN) SUJJAD (AN)
You see them in humbleness and prostrating

please remember the words you intrepret as humble mean bow.

Charity is for Fuqara (the poor), who in Allah's Cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land (for trade or work). The one who knows them not, thinks that they are rich because of their modesty. YOU MAY KNOW THEM BY THEIR MARK, they do not beg of people at all. And whatever you spend in good, surely Allah knows it well. 2273

do you know the different between this verse and 4829, there is no reference as why they have marks. In verse 4829, GOD baliantly states the the believers have marks BECAUSE OF PROTSRATING. In verse 2273 it just said "But you can recognize them by certain signs"
Another key different is the the location of the "sign/marks" is NEVER MENTIONS. However, with verse 4829 GOD baliantly states the marks is on their FACES.

What MARK is the BEGGAR carrying on his FACE, to be IDENTIFIED that he is POOR

You have added "face" in your intrepretation of the verse. Verse 2273 doesnt say face. Plus GOd baliantly tells us what those "marks/signs" are in the verse which is "never beg from the people persistently". So the term is better translated as "sign" than "marks."

It is FACE and cannot be FOREHEAD.

the forehead is a part of the face. There is not big diferent. Look it on in a dictionary. The face by defintion is simply the front of the head, period.